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LDS letter on same-sex marriage

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It's not my fault people abuse marriage and get married for the wrong reasons.

Are you saying that those who are medically incapable of squeezing out a little snotling shouldn't marry, and also shouldn't have sex since that's something you shouldn't do outside marriage? Your beliefs are weeeeeeeeird.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And that is why i am against the death penalty. The only basic human right is the right to live. Everything else are privliges granted by those in authority above us.

That's great. You missed the point, though. The point is that even life is a privilege granted to us by everyone else, going by your definitions of rights and privileges. The point is that we are only allowed anything because the rest of society agrees to allow it, and that includes life.

It's not my fault people abuse marriage and get married for the wrong reasons.

So, people shouldn't get married just because they want to spend the rest of their lives with each other? Would it be more moral to you for a couple who cannot physically get pregnant to just not get married at all? Is marriage only about procreation to you? It seems to me that marriage includes so much more than children.

If the only goal is to procreate, we have no need for marriage. Plenty of people have more than enough children out of wedlock, so maybe we should just do away with the institution altogether.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I said this elsewhere, but it bares repeating: Gotta hand it to fundamentalists - I thought it was only with insects that reproduction and propagation was the primary and only objective in life.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Are you saying that those who are medically incapable of squeezing out a little snotling shouldn't marry, and also shouldn't have sex since that's something you shouldn't do outside marriage? Your beliefs are weeeeeeeeird.

If they don't want to get married then no, they should not have sex. because Sex is forbidden outside of the bounds of marriage.

Sex itself is not just for procreation. Marriage's primary purpose and obligation IS to raise children for the new generation of human beings. those who are nto blessed to have children now will enjoy that blessing if they are faithful in living the rest of thier covenenants. and they shouldn't even really know if they are able to concieve untill marriage anwyays. so they shoudl be getting married with that intent to bare and raise children.

You also forget that i Believe the Constitution was Divinely inspired of God and that it is not to contradict any of the other laws pertaining tot he Kingdom of God. And since homosexuality is sinful, then definitely the constitution was not designed to allow homosexual marriages.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I said this elsewhere, but it bares repeating: Gotta hand it to fundamentalists - I thought it was only with insects that reproduction and propagation was the primary and only objective in life.
Did i say Primary and only in Life? Stop putting words into my mouth, Thanks.

no, I said primary purpose for Marriage. Sex itself is not only for propogation, But is only to be employed between a man and a woman who are married.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
You also forget that i Believe the Constitution was Divinely inspired of God and that it is not to contradict any of the other laws pertaining tot he Kingdom of God. And since homosexuality is sinful, then definitely the constitution was not designed to allow homosexual marriages.

So you seriously think your religion can rightfully usurp and corrupt the intentions of our Founding Fathers? That you can use the law to lord your religion over the masses? That smacks of fascist overtones.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
So you seriously think your religion can rightfully usurp and corrupt the intentions of our Founding Fathers? That you can use the law to lord your religion over the masses? That smacks of fascist overtones.

Peopel can dow hatever they want, people WILL do whatever they want. It's thier right as human beings to live how they want.

But when it comes to protecting the sanctity and privilege of marriage I will stand my ground.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Peopel can dow hatever they want, people WILL do whatever they want. It's thier right as human beings to live how they want.

But when it comes to protecting the sanctity and privilege of marriage I will stand my ground.

That's fine. Protect it. Don't let your church perform marriages that go against your view. However, don't push your church onto everyone else. The state-endorsed marriage is not the same as yours. Just as people can get married in many different churches, including Catholic, LDS, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., and many of those have nothing to do with your view of marriage. You need to learn to separate state marriage from religious/LDS marriages.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Peopel can dow hatever they want, people WILL do whatever they want. It's thier right as human beings to live how they want.

But when it comes to protecting the sanctity and privilege of marriage I will stand my ground.

stand your ground, but get the frick off my ground. preventing gay marriage or the legal equivalent is standing on my ground, and it down right stinks.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
How can you expect anyone to take your "sanctity of marriage" belief seriously when you yourself desecrate it left and right with lies?

Ah, but they are not lies. you just do not believe the same things i do. you can believe differently than i do but it is impossible to prove me "wrong"
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
That's fine. Protect it. Don't let your church perform marriages that go against your view. However, don't push your church onto everyone else. The state-endorsed marriage is not the same as yours. Just as people can get married in many different churches, including Catholic, LDS, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., and many of those have nothing to do with your view of marriage. You need to learn to separate state marriage from religious/LDS marriages.

Not going to happen, I will vote my conscience. you may disagree but that does not prove either one or us "right" or "wrong" it's just a different belief.

you think it impedes on freedoms. I say it doesn't because the only inherent human right is the right to Life. everything else is a privilege. every single person has the same privilege of marrying someone of the opposite sex if they wish to get married. you may not agree with it but it does not make it "wrong" If there were a clear right and wrong between us then we would not be having this discussion.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So if we don't have rights, such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. you wouldn't mind if someone had successfully outlawed Mormonism, making it illegal for you to practice or preach your beliefs? You would be totally cool with that? Really?
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Ah, but they are not lies. you just do not believe the same things i do. you can believe differently than i do but it is impossible to prove me "wrong"
Whatever helps you to sleep at night.

Am I the only one who is noticing the snowball getting bigger?
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
I say it doesn't because the only inherent human right is the right to Life. everything else is a privilege.
Wrong again.
Ever heard of 'capital punishment'?

every single person has the same privilege of marrying someone of the opposite sex if they wish to get married. you may not agree with it but it does not make it "wrong" If there were a clear right and wrong between us then we would not be having this discussion.
Ever heard of 'capital punishment'?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Not going to happen, I will vote my conscience. you may disagree but that does not prove either one or us "right" or "wrong" it's just a different belief.

you think it impedes on freedoms. I say it doesn't because the only inherent human right is the right to Life. everything else is a privilege. every single person has the same privilege of marrying someone of the opposite sex if they wish to get married. you may not agree with it but it does not make it "wrong" If there were a clear right and wrong between us then we would not be having this discussion.

You can vote according to your conscience. The problem is that you're forcing everyone to conform to your conscience. I'm not talking about your belief about homosexuality. Maybe you're right that God doesn't like it, and homosexuals will be damned to hell forever. I can't prove you wrong. What I can prove you wrong on is the desire to impose your morality on everyone else. That is wrong, not just different.

I don't expect you to go marry a man, or anything. I'm not trying to force you into anything like that. I do, however, expect you to respect others. The difference is that I'm not trying to force anything on you, while you are definitely trying to force something on others. If you think homosexuality is wrong, then don't do it, and counsel loved ones, if you want, on your feelings towards it. BUT don't try to make everyone else conform to your beliefs.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Not going to happen, I will vote my conscience. you may disagree but that does not prove either one or us "right" or "wrong" it's just a different belief.

you think it impedes on freedoms. I say it doesn't because the only inherent human right is the right to Life. everything else is a privilege. every single person has the same privilege of marrying someone of the opposite sex if they wish to get married. you may not agree with it but it does not make it "wrong" If there were a clear right and wrong between us then we would not be having this discussion.

no, you have the privilege to marry the person you love. i don't. not only that, but i am a legal stranger to the person i love, and so are gay couples who have lived together and loved each other for many years - causing hell with next-of-kin rights for one major thing. you do understand the implications of that, right? it hurts. and you are aiding and abetting that pain and suffering - i hope you feel proud of yourself.

you yourself have admitted we're at a stalemate, we can't prove your morality wrong and you can't prove our morality wrong - the only difference is, your so-called morality actively hurts others, where as you can't show any way in which ours does hurt others.

and i am disgusted with any "church" that actively promotes the pain and suffering of others.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
You can vote according to your conscience. The problem is that you're forcing everyone to conform to your conscience. I'm not talking about your belief about homosexuality. Maybe you're right that God doesn't like it, and homosexuals will be damned to hell forever. I can't prove you wrong. What I can prove you wrong on is the desire to impose your morality on everyone else. That is wrong, not just different.

I don't expect you to go marry a man, or anything. I'm not trying to force you into anything like that. I do, however, expect you to respect others. The difference is that I'm not trying to force anything on you, while you are definitely trying to force something on others. If you think homosexuality is wrong, then don't do it, and counsel loved ones, if you want, on your feelings towards it. BUT don't try to make everyone else conform to your beliefs.

Clearly you don't understand my belief system if you think that I think homosexuals are damned to hell forever. I do not slander homosexuals. heck, our lactation consultant when our baby was born was a lebian and she was WONDERFUL, she helped us so much. doe sthat make me think that homosexual behavior is O.K.? no. There is a complete difference.

All laws are imposing morality on the community. and those who are in power to make those laws are the ones who's morals we are affected by.

I'm not forcing people to do anything or telling them how to think. I have merely been defending my own position. Have i attacked anyone else's position? no. i have been on the defensive very much. It is you who have berated me for my own views when i clearly have shown you how i justify my beliefs and actions.

What i say does not remove your Volition. you can believe what you want. i'm going this way < you can go that way > it doesn't matter to me. Just because you don't agree with my logic or way of thinking does not mean you have to berate me for my opinions. I respect that you disagree with me, that's fine, it's your choice.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Clearly you don't understand my belief system if you think that I think homosexuals are damned to hell forever. I do not slander homosexuals. heck, our lactation consultant when our baby was born was a lebian and she was WONDERFUL, she helped us so much. doe sthat make me think that homosexual behavior is O.K.? no. There is a complete difference.

All laws are imposing morality on the community. and those who are in power to make those laws are the ones who's morals we are affected by.

I'm not forcing people to do anything or telling them how to think. I have merely been defending my own position. Have i attacked anyone else's position? no. i have been on the defensive very much. It is you who have berated me for my own views when i clearly have shown you how i justify my beliefs and actions.

What i say does not remove your Volition. you can believe what you want. i'm going this way < you can go that way > it doesn't matter to me. Just because you don't agree with my logic or way of thinking does not mean you have to berate me for my opinions. I respect that you disagree with me, that's fine, it's your choice.

If you are arguing that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals are less equal then heterosexuals then you are on the wrong side of morality mate.

The weak ones are there to justify the strong eh? Very mormon of ya manson. (And I like Manson)

The beutiful people... The beutiful people...
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Clearly you don't understand my belief system if you think that I think homosexuals are damned to hell forever. I do not slander homosexuals. heck, our lactation consultant when our baby was born was a lebian and she was WONDERFUL, she helped us so much. doe sthat make me think that homosexual behavior is O.K.? no. There is a complete difference.

So, do you not believe that homosexuals who engage in homosexual activities their entire lives are sinning against God? You may not believe that they'll be damned to hell forever, but this is all beside the point anyway. Regardless of this, you continue to oppress them.

All laws are imposing morality on the community. and those who are in power to make those laws are the ones who's morals we are affected by.

If you want to call it morality, you're welcome to. The reality is that laws are just a way to keep people safe and keep society functioning well. They are not meant to be a "moral compass". If you can show a good, rational reason for your laws, then fine. The problem is that in this case, you can't. There is no good, rational reason for banning same-sex marriage, the same way there's a good, rational reason for banning murder.

I'm not forcing people to do anything or telling them how to think. I have merely been defending my own position. Have i attacked anyone else's position? no. i have been on the defensive very much. It is you who have berated me for my own views when i clearly have shown you how i justify my beliefs and actions.

No, you're just forcing people not to do something. I have not berated you for your views. My point has been, clearly, that, whether or not you believe homosexuality to be wrong or a sin, you should not be imposing that on anyone else. I disagree with your view of homosexuality, but what is at contention is what you do with your belief. I don't like Nickelback, the band. It's not a problem, though, because I'm not doing anything about it. I'm not trying to ban their music.

What i say does not remove your Volition. you can believe what you want. i'm going this way < you can go that way > it doesn't matter to me. Just because you don't agree with my logic or way of thinking does not mean you have to berate me for my opinions. I respect that you disagree with me, that's fine, it's your choice.

I'm not berating you. We are having a debate, or argument if you'd rather. In a debate, you present your side, and I present mine. I thought that's what we were doing. You're still not getting the point. I really don't care what your personal beliefs are. They are fun to debate sometimes, but ultimately don't matter to me personally. What I do care about is what you do with those beliefs. You go one step too far in trying to impose your beliefs on everyone else. I'm not trying to get you to think homosexuality is good. I'm just trying to get you to understand that, even though you believe that, you shouldn't be applying that to anyone's life but your own.
 
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