LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Magic Man]

And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God

I thought this was interesting. It sounds to me like it says that whoever forbids people to marry is not ordained by God. I'm sure I'm "just reading it wrong", though.

Marriage is only between one man and one woman UNLESS the Lord decreed otherwise for a time. The doctrine of Plural wives was a limited practice and was used SOLEY for the bringing forth of more offspring unto the Lord.

Really? So, God said "This is OK, but only for a while"? Why didn't he just create more people to start with, so that the existing people wouldn't have to commit this sin?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is not a bold faced lie.

Marriage is only between one man and one woman UNLESS the Lord decreed otherwise for a time.

"UNLESS the Lord decreed otherwise for a time" is not the same thing as "ALWAYS", is it?

The doctrine of Plural wives was a limited practice and was used SOLEY for the bringing forth of more offspring unto the Lord.

Separate from Mormon-specific plural marriage, there have been many other examples of polygamy in various societies.

Look at the Old Testament: many characters in it are explicitly noted as having multiple spouses (sometimes hundreds!). Look at Muslim societies: many adhere to the traditional Islamic law that says a man may have up to four wives. Look at all the other societies the world over that have practices (and in some cases, continue to practice) some form of polygamy or plural marriage.

 

[Autodidact]

If they don't want to get married then no, they should not have sex. because Sex is forbidden outside of the bounds of marriage.

It is? There's a law against having sex outside of marriage? What state do you live in?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I thought this was interesting. It sounds to me like it says that whoever forbids people to marry is not ordained by God. I'm sure I'm "just reading it wrong", though.

1 Timothy 4 also has interesting things to say about certain people who prohibit others from marrying.

 

[madhatter85]

1 Timothy 4 also has interesting things to say about certain people who prohibit others from marrying.

If you two are going to use the bible as an argument you have to accept the fact that Homosexual activity is a Sin according to the Bible.

With that, you could not argue that the Bible protects homosexual marriages. so don't even try.

 

[Magic Man]

If you two are going to use the bible as an argument you have to accept the fact that Homosexual activity is a Sin according to the Bible.

With that, you could not argue that the Bible protects homosexual marriages. so don't even try.

I wasn't using the Bible. You were, I was just putting forth my interpretation of the passage you supplied. The part that I quoted seemed to support my side more than yours. Could you point out to me why that is not the case there?

 

[Autodidact]

Ah, but they are not lies. you just do not believe the same things i do. you can believe differently than i do but it is impossible to prove me "wrong"

But what we can prove is that you believe it, and we do not. Why should we have to suffer for your beliefs?

 

[Autodidact]

Not going to happen, I will vote my conscience. you may disagree but that does not prove either one or us "right" or "wrong" it's just a different belief.

You're not wrong, for you. I encourage you to follow your beliefs. What I don't understand is why you think you should have the right to impose your beliefs on me.

you think it impedes on freedoms. I say it doesn't because the only inherent human right is the right to Life. everything else is a privilege. every single person has the same privilege of marrying someone of the opposite sex if they wish to get married. you may not agree with it but it does not make it "wrong" If there were a clear right and wrong between us then we would not be having this discussion.

Cool. I guess you wouldn't have a problem then with outlawing LDS practice? That wouldn't violate the Constitution or anything?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you two are going to use the bible as an argument you have to accept the fact that Homosexual activity is a Sin according to the Bible.

With that, you could not argue that the Bible protects homosexual marriages. so don't even try.

I beg to differ, but this is a topic for another thread... this one, specifically.

 

[Autodidact]

Clearly you don't understand my belief system if you think that I think homosexuals are damned to hell forever. I do not slander homosexuals. heck, our lactation consultant when our baby was born was a lebian and she was WONDERFUL, she helped us so much. doe sthat make me think that homosexual behavior is O.K.? no. There is a complete difference.

All laws are imposing morality on the community. and those who are in power to make those laws are the ones who's morals we are affected by.

I'm not forcing people to do anything or telling them how to think. I have merely been defending my own position. Have i attacked anyone else's position? no. i have been on the defensive very much. It is you who have berated me for my own views when i clearly have shown you how i justify my beliefs and actions.

What i say does not remove your Volition. you can believe what you want. i'm going this way < you can go that way > it doesn't matter to me. Just because you don't agree with my logic or way of thinking does not mean you have to berate me for my opinions. I respect that you disagree with me, that's fine, it's your choice.

But it's not my choice to get married, not because of your beliefs, but because you also believe that you have the right to impose your beliefs on me. That's wrong. Period. I don't have a right to force you to be an atheist, and you don't have the right to force me not to marry my sweetheart.

 

[Father Heathen]

If you two are going to use the bible as an argument you have to accept the fact that Homosexual activity is a Sin according to the Bible.

With that, you could not argue that the Bible protects homosexual marriages. so don't even try.

Regardless, the bible is entirely irrelevant when it comes to state and federal laws. Your religious commandments and such only apply to those who actually believe in and follow them. If you think something is wrong from a religious perspective then don't do it, but it's not the state's place to endorse and enforce your particular personal beliefs. Let man enforce man's law, and let god enforce god's law.

 

[madhatter85]

Regardless, the bible is entirely irrelevant when it comes to state and federal laws. Your religious commandments and such only apply to those who actually believe in and follow them. If you think something is wrong from a religious perspective then don't do it, but it's not the state's place to endorse and enforce your particular personal beliefs. Let man enforce man's law, and let god enforce god's law.

Take your own advice.

This is my religious belief and i will do as i see fit to protect my family and our freedom to enjoy our religion, And allowing homosexual marriages to be sanctified by the governemet is one of a few steps that will lead to me not being able to fully enjoy my own religion. It's that simple.

 

[madhatter85]

I wasn't using the Bible. You were, I was just putting forth my interpretation of the passage you supplied. The part that I quoted seemed to support my side more than yours. Could you point out to me why that is not the case there?

Um, that quote was from the 49th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, and Not the bible.

 

[silvermoon383]

Take your own advice.

This is my religious belief and i will do as i see fit to protect my family and our freedom to enjoy our religion, And allowing homosexual marriages to be sanctified by the governemet is one of a few steps that will lead to me not being able to fully enjoy my own religion. It's that simple.

That is not a logical argument. You are not the government, therefore the government's acceptance of homosexual marriages does not impact your choice. The only way homosexual marriage can impact our freedom of worship is if they attempt to force the Church into performing them, and everyone knows that such a law would violate the 1st Amendment.

 

[Theocan]

Take your own advice.

This is my religious belief and i will do as i see fit to protect my family and our freedom to enjoy our religion, And allowing homosexual marriages to be sanctified by the governemet is one of a few steps that will lead to me not being able to fully enjoy my own religion. It's that simple.

HOW IS SOMEBODY ELSE YOU DON"T KNOW INVADING ON YOUR RIGHTS OR ENJOYMENT OF RELIGION.

PEOPLE YOU MAY NEVER MEET IN YOUR LIFE MARRY, JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY IT RUINS YOUR ENJOYMENT OF RELIGION.

[mod edit]

 

[Magic Man]

Take your own advice.

This is my religious belief and i will do as i see fit to protect my family and our freedom to enjoy our religion, And allowing homosexual marriages to be sanctified by the governemet is one of a few steps that will lead to me not being able to fully enjoy my own religion. It's that simple.

Yes, you've said this many times. No one is trying to destroy your religion, though. The government and your religion aren't the same thing. I don't look to the government to abide by all of my personal beliefs.

How would the government allowing homosexual marriages lead you to not be able to fully enjoy your religion? Do you think the government is going to then force you to marry another man? There are plenty of other beliefs of your religion that are not supported by the government, or even contradicted by it, and you currently fully enjoy your religion.

 

[madhatter85]

That is not a logical argument. You are not the government, therefore the government's acceptance of homosexual marriages does not impact your choice. The only way homosexual marriage can impact our freedom of worship is if they attempt to force the Church into performing them, and everyone knows that such a law would violate the 1st Amendment.

The goverment has always chosen "equality" over the freedom to enjoy religion in many many cases between homosexuals and religious insititutions.

Mormon Times - Marriage ruling likely to impinge on religious rights

• • A San Diego County fertility doctor was sued for refusing to perform artificial insemination for one partner of a lesbian couple for religious reasons. The doctor referred the patient to a colleague, promised there would be no extra cost and offered to care for her during her subsequent pregnancy. The case is now before the California Supreme Court, and justices seemed hostile to the doctor's defense during oral arguments last month.

  • Catholic Charities in Boston and San Francisco ended adoption services altogether rather than be compelled by anti-discrimination laws to place children with same-sex couples. In the Boston case, Catholic Charities was prepared to refer same-sex couples seeking to adopt to other providers, but that was not sufficient.

  • A Lutheran school in Riverside County, Calif., was sued in 2005 under California's Unruh Act (which forbids discrimination by businesses) for expelling two students who allegedly were having a lesbian relationship, in contravention of the religious views of the school. The case was thrown out in Superior Court in January, but the students have appealed.

  • Public school officials in Poway, Calif., so far have successfully barred students from wearing T-shirts that register their opposition to homosexuality on campus. One lawsuit made its way to the U.S. Supreme Court before being dismissed (as moot, because the students had graduated), but another federal lawsuit is pending.

 

[Magic Man]

Um, that quote was from the 49th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, and Not the bible.

Fine, then you accused me of using the Bible, knowing that I wasn't using the Bible. Why did you accuse me of that in the first place, then?

 

[madhatter85]

Yes, you've said this many times. No one is trying to destroy your religion, though. The government and your religion aren't the same thing. I don't look to the government to abide by all of my personal beliefs.

How would the government allowing homosexual marriages lead you to not be able to fully enjoy your religion? Do you think the government is going to then force you to marry another man? There are plenty of other beliefs of your religion that are not supported by the government, or even contradicted by it, and you currently fully enjoy your religion.

Please see my above post.

 

[madhatter85]

Fine, then you accused me of using the Bible, knowing that I wasn't using the Bible. Why did you accuse me of that in the first place, then?

I was replying to 9-10th's was i not?