LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Watchmen]

I'm against Mormonism. I think it's immoral, dishonest and crooked. But I strongly defend madhatter's right not only to practice it, but teach it to his children. Sadly, he does not extend the same respect to other people's rights.

It's so nice to see you stereotyping again. I've known a few immoral, dishonest, and crooked homosexuals. Does that make them all that way? Of course not.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's so nice to see you stereotyping again. I've known a few immoral, dishonest, and crooked homosexuals. Does that make them all that way? Of course not.

I think she is just making an analogy, switching homosexuality with Mormonism to get a point across.

 

[Apex]

I think she is just making an analogy, switching homosexuality with Mormonism to get a point across.

She says that a lot, but reading her other posts, I get the feeling she really believes it.

 

[Father Heathen]

She says that a lot, but reading her other posts, I get the feeling she really believes it.

But even if she did, she doesn't think they should be oppressed and persecuted by the law, which is the point.

 

[Autodidact]

It's so nice to see you stereotyping again. I've known a few immoral, dishonest, and crooked homosexuals. Does that make them all that way? Of course not.

I didn't say anything about Mormons. All the ones I've met have been very nice, as well as honest. It's Mormonism itself that is immoral, just as madhatter believes that homosexuality, not homosexuals, that is immoral.

 

[Autodidact]

She says that a lot, but reading her other posts, I get the feeling she really believes it.

Yes, I do. I really believe that Mormonism is immoral. However, what I do about that is to not be a Mormon. I do not ask Mormons to stop being Mormons.

 

[Watchmen]

Yes, I do. I really believe that Mormonism is immoral. However, what I do about that is to not be a Mormon. I do not ask Mormons to stop being Mormons.

Yet you are critical of Mormons.

By your logic, shouldn't some of them then be critical of homosexuality?

 

[madhatter85]

Yet you are critical of Mormons.

By your logic, shouldn't some of them then be critical of homosexuality?

Especially because of how outspoken she is, and blatantly anti-mormon

I Will say this one more time.

I am not telling you to stop being Gay, I'm not telling you who you can or cannot Love. I am doing nothign of the Sort. Love and marriage are not homogeneous. The world doesn't have any sanctions on co-habitation (except in the case of polygamy). you can live with your lover all your life and nobody can say anything.

the REASON marriage has extra benefits attached to it is because of what it's intended purpose is for, To produce a new generation of individuals. Why do you get a tax break? because having a Child is Hard, And also, that child will grow up to pay more taxes (assuming he/she get's a Job). Homosexuals cannot reproduce and therefore as a marriage do not provide any benefit to a society.

Individually, Anyone is worth just as much as anyone else, and individually people have accomplished great things. I'm not devaluing the homosexual. I'm devaluing homosexual marriage. Marriage for me is more than just a pice of paper and a couple Vows. It is sanctified by my religious beliefs and i do not want that to be devalued by the government making homosexual Civil Unions or Marriage legal.

What you should be lobbying for is the changes to the simple laws which you have a problem with. Like hopsital visitation rights. I'm sure a few well placed speeches a court descision can get you the privilege to see your lover if they were in a terrible accident. As a matter-of-fact if your lover puts you down as emergency contact then you can indeed visit them in the hospital at any time. People can already write anyone they want into a living trust or Last WIll and Testament.

Attacking marriage is not the way to go about it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yet you are critical of Mormons.

By your logic, shouldn't some of them then be critical of homosexuality?

It's okay to not accept and be critical of homosexuality, but it's not okay to use the law to oppress and persecute homosexuals.

There is a difference between having a personal opinion, and turning that personal opinion into everyone else's law. That is the point we've been trying to make the last 123 pages of this thread.

 

[Father Heathen]

Especially because of how outspoken she is, and blatantly anti-mormon

But she isn't promoting laws to restrict and reduce the rights of mormons.

That's the difference.

 

[madhatter85]

There is a difference between having a personal opinion, and turning that personal opinion into everyone else's law. That is the point we've been trying to make the last 123 pages of this thread.

But you are forcing everyone to accept your way of thinking by trying to make homosexual marriage legal. no matter how much you think it isn't.... It most definitely IS. youa re tyring to force the entire united states as a whole to sanction and recognize homosexual marriages as Valid.

youa re pointing the finger at others when you are all doing the exact same thing you are accusing us of.

 

[Father Heathen]

But you are forcing everyone to accept your way of thinking by trying to make homosexual marriage legal. no matter how much you think it isn't.... It most definitely IS. youa re tyring to force the entire united states as a whole to sanction and recognize homosexual marriages as Valid.

youa re pointing the finger at others when you are all doing the exact same thing you are accusing us of.

You are not "forced" to "accept" anything. Mormons forbid alcohol, but you don't seem to have a problem with a non-mormon drinking a beer. Does that fact that alcohol isn't illegal "force" you to "accept" alcohol consumption? Or is that something else on your list of things to ban? By you being allowed to practice your mormon faith, does that mean I'm forced to accept that Joseph Smith is a prophet? Perhaps we should ban Mormonism because I don't want to be forced to accept that he is. If we forbid gay marriage, it's only fair to forbid mormon marriage because I don't want to be forced to accept it.

 

[madhatter85]

You are not "forced" to "accept" anything. Mormons forbid alcohol, but you don't seem to have a problem with a non-mormon drinking a beer. Does that fact that alcohol isn't illegal "force" you to "accept" alcohol consumption? Or is that something else on your list of things to ban? By you being allowed to practice your mormon faith, does that mean I'm forced to accept that Joseph Smith is a prophet? Perhaps we should ban Mormonism because I don't want to be forced to accept that he is. If we forbid gay marriage, it's only fair to forbid mormon marriage because I don't want to be forced to accept it.

It's funny how you still try to compare us to homosexuals. As if we ever tried to change any laws. We did not lobby for the proposition. We were not the creators of it. We are merely supporting it by voting for it. Yet you act as if we thought it all up. We are not the only ones who oppose gay mariage. Last i checked the Majority of this country opposes it. Not just Mormons.

Marriage is not a "Right," it is a privilege. It's a shame to see how the corrupt individuals of this country are trying to override DOMA, when it was voted in and signed by the president of the united states (Clinton, a Democrat by the way). And if the country get's rid of DOMA, then guess what buddy. we WILL be required by the government to honor homosexual marirages as valid regardless of our freedom to religious enjoyment. because there will come a time when you need something from us and we will not give it based on our religious beliefs and then you will cause an even bugger ruckus.

 

[Magic Man]

Especially because of how outspoken she is, and blatantly anti-mormon

and yet, she doesn't want to stop you from being able to practice your religion. Odd, huh?

the REASON marriage has extra benefits attached to it is because of what it's intended purpose is for, To produce a new generation of individuals.

Wrong. Benefits for having children are separate from marriage benefits. I am married, and could remain so for the rest of my life enjoying all of the benefits of marriage without ever having a kid. I could also have a kid, at which point I would receive extra benefits specifically for that situation.

Why do you get a tax break? because having a Child is Hard, And also, that child will grow up to pay more taxes (assuming he/she get's a Job). Homosexuals cannot reproduce and therefore as a marriage do not provide any benefit to a society.

Homosexuals can adopt or be artificially inseminated, or artificially inseminate someone else. In the case of the adoption, they are providing a very good benefit to society in taking care of others' mistakes. In the other two ways, they are raising a child the same way a heterosexual couple would. None of this has to do with marriage, though. As I said before, people can be married and get tax breaks just for that, as I do now. Then, when people have kids, even if they are not married, they receive other tax breaks specifically because of the children.

Individually, Anyone is worth just as much as anyone else, and individually people have accomplished great things. I'm not devaluing the homosexual. I'm devaluing homosexual marriage. Marriage for me is more than just a pice of paper and a couple Vows. It is sanctified by my religious beliefs and i do not want that to be devalued by the government making homosexual Civil Unions or Marriage legal.

Don't worry, it won't. Whether or not homosexual couples are getting married has no bearing whatsoever on your marriage or its sanctity. That's aside from the fact that homosexual couples are getting married these days, just not legally. The homosexual couples that are married by their church, but are not recognized legally, do they ruin your marriage or its sanctity? If not, (and I really hope that's the answer) why would them being legal make a difference?

Also, since when do you go by everything the government says? Since when do you expect them to go by every belief you have? Just because the government says it's right or wrong doesn't have any affect on you at all. It's no different than the Catholic church allowing same0sex marriages. You would disagree with them, I'm sure, but, it's a separate church, and so doesn't affect you, does it?

What you should be lobbying for is the changes to the simple laws which you have a problem with. Like hopsital visitation rights. I'm sure a few well placed speeches a court descision can get you the privilege to see your lover if they were in a terrible accident.

It would be nice if it was that easy, wouldn't it? Maybe you should learn a little more before making assumptions like this. Do you really think if it were that easy, it wouldn't have occurred already?

As a matter-of-fact if your lover puts you down as emergency contact then you can indeed visit them in the hospital at any time. People can already write anyone they want into a living trust or Last WIll and Testament.

Attacking marriage is not the way to go about it.

It's not attacking marriage. We don't want to destroy anything. I'm sorry you see it that way, but it would be nice if you could see past your own bias. Again, you should learn a little more about how systems work before making assumptions like this. Sure, anyone can write down anyone on a Last Will and Testament (as far as I know), but spouses don't even have to do that, aside from the fact that your idea about emergency contacts doesn't actually work.

 

[Magic Man]

But you are forcing everyone to accept your way of thinking by trying to make homosexual marriage legal. no matter how much you think it isn't.... It most definitely IS. youa re tyring to force the entire united states as a whole to sanction and recognize homosexual marriages as Valid.

youa re pointing the finger at others when you are all doing the exact same thing you are accusing us of.

You're right. We're trying to go by the laws of the land. We're trying to make this a better, more consistent country. I'm sorry for that. What we're trying to do is something you would readily agree with in theory, if a specific example like this wasn't being discussed. I'm sure you agree with the ideas of equality for everyone, and freedom to do what you want, and consistency as far as implementation of laws is concerned. I know you will say "Yes, but..." because of this specific case, but then you are just rationalizing.

The point is that we want what everyone wants, and that is freedom and equality. I defy you to find one person here or elsewhere that would argue with that.

 

[Magic Man]

It's funny how you still try to compare us to homosexuals.

We compare you to homosexuals because you are a minority group who enjoys the freedom to live your lives the way you want to, even though your views are not widely accepted.

As if we ever tried to change any laws. We did not lobby for the proposition. We were not the creators of it. We are merely supporting it by voting for it. Yet you act as if we thought it all up. We are not the only ones who oppose gay mariage. Last i checked the Majority of this country opposes it. Not just Mormons.

The whole point of this thread is your church trying to change a law (not the words I'd use, but it fits considering the way you're using it). The LDS church doesn't want homosexuals to be able to marry in California, and the letter in the OP of this thread calls for a change to the law of California concerning it.

You're right, you're not the only ones who oppose it. All the others who do are wrong, too. They're just not as vocal against it as you are. An appeal to majority only makes your argument look worse. There are so many examples to use to show how big a fallacy that is, but the easiest is slavery. The majority accepted and supported slavery at one point. Did that make it right?

Marriage is not a "Right," it is a privilege. It's a shame to see how the corrupt individuals of this country are trying to override DOMA, when it was voted in and signed by the president of the united states (Clinton, a Democrat by the way). And if the country get's rid of DOMA, then guess what buddy. we WILL be required by the government to honor homosexual marirages as valid regardless of our freedom to religious enjoyment. because there will come a time when you need something from us and we will not give it based on our religious beliefs and then you will cause an even bugger ruckus.

Yes, we've been through this before. Whether it's a right or a privilege, some people enjoy it while others don't, and there is no good or legal reason for those people to be denied it.

Your church will never be forced to perform same-sex marriages. The examples you or someone else gave about the government forcing some religious organizations to go against their religious beliefs have been debunked here and in another thread. If you are doing government work, they will expect you to go by their standards. If you are not, then you can do whatever you want.

The only corrupt people in this equation are the ones holding onto the ban on homosexual marriage for dear life. One day, we'll look back on this as we currently look back on the Civil Rights movement. That will be a fine day, but , for now, we still have people like you who feel you're entitled to control others' private lives.

 

[Autodidact]

Yet you are critical of Mormons.

By your logic, shouldn't some of them then be critical of homosexuality?

No, but in any case, the issue is not whether they are critical of homosexuality; that's entirely their business, just as it is mine to disagree with them. The issue is that no one's asking them to engage in homosexuality if they are critical of it. What we're asking is for them to respect other's rights to decide for themselves, a right they do expect to be extended to themselves, but which they do not extend to others.

For example, thousands of churches do perform gay marriages, but madhatter (and you?) want to deny them the right to have these marriages legally recognized.

 

[Autodidact]

Especially because of how outspoken she is, and blatantly anti-mormon

I Will say this one more time.

You can say it a million times, that doesn't make it any more true or correct.

I am not telling you to stop being Gay, I'm not telling you who you can or cannot Love. I am doing nothign of the Sort. Love and marriage are not homogeneous. The world doesn't have any sanctions on co-habitation (except in the case of polygamy). you can live with your lover all your life and nobody can say anything.

Yes, we get it. All that you're telling me is that I cannot marry my beloved. We get that.

the REASON marriage has extra benefits attached to it is because of what it's intended purpose is for, To produce a new generation of individuals. Why do you get a tax break? because having a Child is Hard, And also, that child will grow up to pay more taxes (assuming he/she get's a Job). Homosexuals cannot reproduce and therefore as a marriage do not provide any benefit to a society.

And as I've told you several times, you better tell my children about my inability to reproduce.

Individually, Anyone is worth just as much as anyone else, and individually people have accomplished great things. I'm not devaluing the homosexual. I'm devaluing homosexual marriage. Marriage for me is more than just a pice of paper and a couple Vows. It is sanctified by my religious beliefs and i do not want that to be devalued by the government making homosexual Civil Unions or Marriage legal.

I bolded the key part.
And we're waiting for you to explain how including someone else devalues marriage.

What you should be lobbying for is the changes to the simple laws which you have a problem with. Like hopsital visitation rights. I'm sure a few well placed speeches a court descision can get you the privilege to see your lover if they were in a terrible accident. As a matter-of-fact if your lover puts you down as emergency contact then you can indeed visit them in the hospital at any time. People can already write anyone they want into a living trust or Last WIll and Testament.

Thank you, I think I can decide for myself what I should be lobbying for.

Attacking marriage is not the way to go about it.

Please explain how asking for a right to be extended is attacking it. When African-Americans or women asked for the right to vote, were they attacking or devaluing the vote? Quite the contrary, wouldn't you say? Similarly, if gay people did not value marriage, they would not be asking for the right to marry, would they?

 

[Autodidact]

But you are forcing everyone to accept your way of thinking by trying to make homosexual marriage legal. no matter how much you think it isn't.... It most definitely IS. youa re tyring to force the entire united states as a whole to sanction and recognize homosexual marriages as Valid.

youa re pointing the finger at others when you are all doing the exact same thing you are accusing us of.

And this is where you are wrong. What we are forcing you to accept is the right for each individual to make their own choices, whether you agree with them or not. What you have to accept is just equal rights, NOT homosexuality. Forcing you would be requiring you to practice, approve of or perform homosexual marriage, none of which we care about in the slightest.

You seem to have a basic problem with the whole idea of tolerance. And what we're trying to get across to you is that you don't have to approve of something to tolerate it and respect other people's right to do it. To use another example, in the religion I was born into, most of your dietary habits are considered abominations, but we never try to get you to conform to our dietary laws. In the same way, we should not be required to conform to your marriage laws.

Hey, hatter, I've got a question for you. When the LDS leadership endorses homosexuality and gay marriage, will you accept it too?

 

[Autodidact]

It's funny how you still try to compare us to homosexuals. As if we ever tried to change any laws. We did not lobby for the proposition. We were not the creators of it. We are merely supporting it by voting for it. Yet you act as if we thought it all up. We are not the only ones who oppose gay mariage. Last i checked the Majority of this country opposes it. Not just Mormons.

Well, it is the subject of the thread.

Marriage is not a "Right," it is a privilege.

Better tell the Supreme Court; they think it's a fundamental right.

You also seem to lack the ability to empathize with anyone else, which is why we keep trying to get you to see it from the other person's point of view. How would you like to be denied this "privilige"?