LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Sunstone]

No. It's just a temporary setback in the long civil rights struggle.

I agree. This isn't defeat. It's just a setback. The overall trend in America is towards greater rights.

 

[Luminous]

But, justice has not been deny, this issue was put to the people and the result was the majority of people wants to keep the definition of marriage as is, both sides put lots of resources into it, they explained their position and there is no way that the majority will accept the idea that there is third gender in humans. So the way out of this, is find a name for it and define it, then we may be able to explained it to our children, but there is no way that I would call this behaviours natural or normal though.

democracy is not justice! democracy is mob rule. southerners were democrats for a reason. with it they could deny their slaves their rights. perhaps it would have been best to have kept the defenition of HUMAN as it was before the civil war.
These people are being denied the privilage to marry and therefor they are being punished for wrong doing. It is a scientific reality that these people are born with different chemicals and are being punished for having been born different.
"Between a man and a woman": gays have to marry someone they could never love, or not marry at all. marrying a loved one is a privalage being denied from these people.

 

[emiliano]

I don't follow you. Christian tenets are hardly immutable, nor should they be. More so in a matter of real social impact such as this.
quote]

That is not what we Christians believe, to us God does not change, the tenet that He revealed to us are immutable, He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, He is perfect (lacking in nothing, needing no improvement), He is omniscient knows and see past, present and future all at once. If He were to change he would not be the same that He was before the improvement. From as far as the very beginning God knew of this behaviour called Homosexuality and He forbade it to His people, He declared g from the beginning the sanctity and the purpose of marriage, so where did get the Idea that Christian’s tenet are not immutable from?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And what gender would that be? As far as I can tell in humans there two genders, male and female.

Can you marry a man?
Can you marry a woman?
What's the difference between a man and a woman?

 

[Luminous]

I don't follow you. Christian tenets are hardly immutable, nor should they be. More so in a matter of real social impact such as this.
quote]

That is not what we Christians believe, to us God does not change, the tenet that He revealed to us are immutable, He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, He is perfect (lacking in nothing, needing no improvement), He is omniscient knows and see past, present and future all at once. If He were to change he would not be the same that He was before the improvement. From as far as the very beginning God knew of this behaviour called Homosexuality and He forbade it to His people, He declared g from the beginning the sanctity and the purpose of marriage, so where did get the Idea that Christian’s tenet are not immutable from?

and yet you Christians all know God by different standards. It might be true that The Only God does not change but Christianity and religion in general sure mutates and expands. why would God forbid homosexuality? infact how could he. people do not become homosexuals, they are born that way. How can you say you know God and speak for It unless you are God:bow:? No dear person, you have only speculations of what God is and what he wants.

In fact, most of you Christians believe God did change... because his son died as the ultimate sacrifise and is now a mediator.

 

[emiliano]

The result of a voting is not necessarily what serves justice. That's why they may be further changed.
That's being awfully definitive with no evidence to show for it, sorry.
I'm sorry to hear that. Among other reasons, because however you feel, you will doubtlessly have to deal with real, decent, homosexual people at some point, and it would be a shame if that turned sour for basically no reason.

The right to take it to the peoples gave justice to both sides, changing the definition of marriage established by prop. 22 was an injustice, prop.8 corrected it, justice was done to the majority. They have no right to impose the teachings of this as nothing else but an unnatural behaviour, not on par with marriage and family. They have to find a name for it first ( they don’t like what we call it)
I have not had many contact with homosexuals because they are a tiny section of the community, and I am not that way incline, but I am getting a bit tired of the fact that I can’t watch tele without having to watch a guy person in it, it seem as there are an unwritten laws that every movie or show has to have one or to of them in it, but I am OK with it, I don’t watch a great deal of TV anyway.

 

[emiliano]

Can you marry a man?
Can you marry a woman?
What's the difference between a man and a woman?

You want me to draw it for you?

 

[emiliano]

No. It's just a temporary setback in the long civil rights struggle.

Well people have to make a living some how, don‘t they? It’s just that you should give it break as there are more important thing to worry about.

 

[Green Gaia]

The right to take it to the peoples gave justice to both sides, changing the definition of marriage established by prop. 22 was an injustice, prop.8 corrected it, justice was done to the majority. They have no right to impose the teachings of this as nothing else but an unnatural behaviour, not on par with marriage and family. They have to find a name for it first ( they don’t like what we call it)

This is exactly why we shouldn't be voting on the rights of minorities. The tyranny of the majority will trample the rights of the minority every time. The founding fathers of this great country understood that. That is why we are not a Democracy, as is so often misquoted, but a Republic. We have a representative govt. and a court system to flesh out matters such as this.The founders understood that the rights of a minority will not be upheld by the majority. Do you think that women and non-whites would have had the right to vote when they did if the voting public at those times had voted upon it? No. The majority wants to keep its special privileges all to themselves to feel superior to the minority and will therefore deny the minority the same rights its enjoys. That's wrong and unAmerican.

Imagine someone else voting on whether you should have the right to marry the person you love and then denying you that right simply because they don't like who you chose. It's absurd. Again, our founding fathers understood this and took steps to protect minorities from this tyrannical behavior like we're seeing today against gay and lesbian couples who are being denied the right to a legal marriage simply because of who they are. Speaking of behavior, I wish more people would see the love and commitment couples who want to marry have for each other instead of reducing their relationships to private "behaviors" they may find objectionable. Straight couples are not subjected to this scrutiny of what should be private matters, neither should gay couples.

 

[Green Gaia]

Well people have to make a living some how, don‘t they? It’s just that you should give it break as there are more important thing to worry about.

No, there's nothing more important than freedom and justice, without either what is there?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You want me to draw it for you?

No need. I was just waiting for you to say "gender".

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't follow you. Christian tenets are hardly immutable, nor should they be. More so in a matter of real social impact such as this.

That is not what we Christians believe, to us God does not change, the tenet that He revealed to us are immutable, He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, He is perfect (lacking in nothing, needing no improvement), He is omniscient knows and see past, present and future all at once. If He were to change he would not be the same that He was before the improvement.

Christianity, however, is NOT God.

Christian tenets can and do change, it's a historical fact with ample evidence. If for no other reason, because Christians do not have static and unchanging understanding of what God wants from them. There is a reason why there is such a thing as Christian Theological research, you know.

And that's a good thing, too

From as far as the very beginning God knew of this behaviour called Homosexuality and He forbade it to His people,

Maybe so. But that is simply not clear from the Bible. A fair case may be made mostly from the history of Lot in Sodom, but even that is tricky at best.

He declared g from the beginning the sanctity and the purpose of marriage, so where did get the Idea that Christian’s tenet are not immutable from?

Basically from the respect I learned to have for the discernment of many christians. Quite a few of them are not attempting to present themselves as happy slaves of begone customs. Fortunately

 

[Luminous]

The right to take it to the peoples gave justice to both sides,

You do not completely understand the pearls before you. for instance, there is a law. that law passes 99 to 1. the law states that anyone who does not vote for the law will not be able to own or buy a thing. that person therefor dies. why did this person vote against the law, you ask? Because such a person does not believe he should impose his will upon others and is willing to suffer and die for equal rights.
By your logic apartheid and segregation was justice. the holocaust was justice. the ocupation of palistine is justice. the enslavement of Christian minorities is Islamic democracies is justice. those who oppress are ignorant of their oppression(case in point Hitler) and believe it is they who are oppressed by the minority they now wish to oppress. If 51% of people vote for the oppresion of the other 49% then by your standards that is justice. the reason you people are afraid of a true U.N. is because of your messed up notions on the way democratic-republics run and because Christians are only 1/3 of the world population.

changing the definition of marriage established by prop. 22 was an injustice, prop.8 corrected it, justice was done to the majority.

I do not know where you conservative christians get your persecution complex from but its very hipocritical. Isn't God on Your side? Why do you need guns and other weapons? won't God protect you? Why do you need protection? Don't you want to get to heaven fast? God ordered you not to be a part of this world. So stop meddling in our affairs.

They have no right to impose the teachings of this as nothing else but an unnatural behaviour, not on par with marriage and family.

Christianity is an unnatural behaviour, its a basic tenent of conservative christianity. You people are super-natural and don't have any animalistic inclinations(LIE) as others do. It is you who have no right to impose the teachings of your unnatural behaviour, not on par with freedom and equality; but on par with dark age catholisism. What a full circle you people have walked.

 

[LuisDantas]

The right to take it to the peoples gave justice to both sides, changing the definition of marriage established by prop. 22 was an injustice, prop.8 corrected it, justice was done to the majority.

Arguable at best. A decision has been made. It doesn't automatically follow that said decision serve Justice. And in this particular case it is quite clear that Justice was in fact betrayed, albeit by way of popular vote.

That's sad. But that just can't last. People won't keep failing to realize the fairness of the demand for equal rights for long.

They have no right to impose the teachings of this as nothing else but an unnatural behaviour, not on par with marriage and family. They have to find a name for it first ( they don’t like what we call it)

They don't have any right to forbid marriage rights to homosexual unions, either. In the end it's up to the community to make its desire known. That's why there was a vote, I guess.

I have not had many contact with homosexuals because they are a tiny section of the community, and I am not that way incline, but I am getting a bit tired of the fact that I can’t watch tele without having to watch a guy person in it, it seem as there are an unwritten laws that every movie or show has to have one or to of them in it, but I am OK with it, I don’t watch a great deal of TV anyway.

I truly wish that could be the end of it. But for good or evil, it isn't. Homosexuality is a fact of life, and by no means an evil part of it. All of us must learn to deal with it in a respectful manner.

In fact, from the basic precepts of Christianity it would seem to be that Christians should in fact be spearheading that effort, given how their doctrine makes a point of favoring the helpless. Too bad that so many of them fail to recognize that.

 

[Luminous]

In fact, from the basic precepts of Christianity it would seem to be that Christians should in fact be spearheading that effort, given how their doctrine makes a point of favoring the helpless. Too bad that so many of them fail to recognize that.

it used to be Pagans who oppressed Christians for their "unnatural behavior" and "intolerant way" as one Roman governor put it. Christians burned pagans in their tempels and the pagans responded with an eye for an eye. In the end the pagans lost because Constantine saw his republic weakening from within.
anyway: i believe God's will is done by God. It was his will to create us and all the horrible things he "does not like".

emili..yadayada: look at my 10:46 PM up there.

 

[emiliano]

and yet you Christians all know God by different standards. It might be true that The Only God does not change but Christianity and religion in general sure mutates and expands. why would God forbid homosexuality? infact how could he. people do not become homosexuals, they are born that way. How can you say you know God and speak for It unless you are God:bow:? No dear person, you have only speculations of what God is and what he wants.

In fact, most of you Christians believe God did change... because his son died as the ultimate sacrifise and is now a mediator.

Sorry all wise one, it is almost funny how you interpreted my beliefs for me, as I said my first religious instruction were that of the Catholic Church, if a person happen to have a relations with a person of the seme sex, that individual is called to repentance, a change of life style and abstinence, if that person persist in this behavioural choice, he or she is excommunicated, which means that that person is no longer a Catholic and has no way of Salvation by sacraments, that person is spiritually dead, Protestant Churches do not consider practicing gays as Christian. So the tenets have not change. We believe that the canon of the OT stand so Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.
The Apostle Paul wrote Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
So gay people a mutants, we are evolving, are we? All human will turn to homosexuality, how interesting. any other interesting theory?

 

[emiliano]

Arguable at best. A decision has been made. It doesn't automatically follow that said decision serve Justice. And in this particular case it is quite clear that Justice was in fact betrayed, albeit by way of popular vote.
That's sad. But that just can't last. People won't keep failing to realize the fairness of the demand for equal rights for long.
They don't have any right to forbid marriage rights to homosexual unions, either. In the end it's up to the community to make its desire known. That's why there was a vote, I guess.
I truly wish that could be the end of it. But for good or evil, it isn't. Homosexuality is a fact of life, and by no means an evil part of it. All of us must learn to deal with it in a respectful manner.
In fact, from the basic precepts of Christianity it would seem to be that Christians should in fact be spearheading that effort, given how their doctrine makes a point of favoring the helpless. Too bad that so many of them fail to recognize that.

Come on Lucho, these are abominations and we cannot spearhead such soul destruction. As for this issue coming back for discussion here and the US, offcourse it will I even learnt the that this is a mutation in the human genus so just wait a couple billion year and all human will be gays, after all some evolutionist are predicting that frogs will turn into princes eventually, aren’t they, so why not! It is possible.

 

[darkendless]

Come on Lucho, these are abominations and we cannot spearhead such soul destruction. As for this issue coming back for discussion here and the US, offcourse it will I even learnt the that this is a mutation in the human genus so just wait a couple billion year and all human will be gays, after all some evolutionist are predicting that frogs will turn into princes eventually, aren’t they, so why not! It is possible.

The only abominations here is elitest attitudes. You're and Australian, i thought better of you mate.

 

[emiliano]

The only abominations here is elitest attitudes. You're and Australian, i thought better of you mate.

Look mate it is easy to understand really: As a Christian I believe that this is an abomination to God and that it has consequences, I stated that and quoted the scriptures that supports our beliefs, how can we spearhead a movement to destroy their souls? Would this be loving? You see we do believe that the Apostle wrote inspired. 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
T It is a Christian thing, you cannot understand, we dealt with this issue the same way and I do believe that the gay community has plans for another go, but as you n know we are dealing with more important issues at the moment, it has nothing to do with been Australian, we gave them a fair go and so did the Americans.

 

[darkendless]

Look mate it is easy to understand really: As a Christian I believe that this is an abomination to God and that it has consequences, I stated that and quoted the scriptures that supports our beliefs, how can we spearhead a movement to destroy their souls? Would this be loving? You see we do believe that the Apostle wrote inspired. 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
T It is a Christian thing, you cannot understand, we dealt with this issue the same way and I do believe that the gay community has plans for another go, but as you n know we are dealing with more important issues at the moment, it has nothing to do with been Australian, we gave them a fair go and so did the Americans.

I understand your beliefs, but it puzzles me how as Australians we cany deny rights to homosexuals who make up a small portion of the comminuty the rights of everyone else.
To be honest im disappointed Christians make it their business what people do in their spare time. Homosexuals are just like us, why should we deny them rights? We're a first world country, we should lead the way in allowing homosexuals to partake in society as equals rather than lessers.

My opinion on this is that the church should be responsible for homosexuality within their fellowship, rather than trying to encompass the community as a whole.

The one thing that is somewhat concerning, is the average age of Australians. We are a very old population. If anything, this should be the only thing stopping laws.