LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

What does brilliance got to do with anything that I posted? I notice that you have brought up this several times, there are brilliant people that are left handed but their left-handedness is not the cause of their brilliance, there mentally ill people that are brilliant, there are people of colour , there are even retarded people that are brilliant, and there are homosexual that are brilliant, none of this is caused by the above traits. I know that it’s impossible for you to grasp this, but your behaviours are not consider natural by the majority and certainly not on par with the marriage of a man to a woman, that is called reality, there is no third sex in the human species, proposition 8 just restored the definition of marriage, bans the issue of marriage certificates to people of the same sex, it does not ban homosexuality.

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. These are all examples, emiliano, examples of ways that people can be different without being defective. We used to see left-handed people as defective; now we see that they're perfectly good at being-left-handed, and that's O.K. In the same way, some people are gay. They are not defective heterosexuals, they don't suffer a hormone imbalance. Indeed, their hormones are just like yours. They just have a different sexuality, that does no harm, and lends to the variety that makes life charming.

As to a gay marriage not being "on par" with a straight one, in what way? emiliano? Do you know a lot of gay married people? Are their relationships somehow not as loving, committed, respectful or otherwise worse than your straight married friends?

Why do you keep talking about a third sex? What has that to do with anything? No one is saying that there is, and I don't know why you keep going on about it.

And Prop 8 did nothing whatsoever about the definition of marriage, which remains the same as it ever was; it merely restricts the categories of people who can enter into it.

 

[Autodidact]

Brilliant! Let see there is love for your fellowman, does this mean that I should married all of those that a feel love for? There is filial love, paternal love, maternal love, fraternal love, should we marry them all, we love animals, furnisher, toy , motor car, our jobs, etc. Should we have a right to show our commitment and marry them all?:areyoucra

Yes, good, now you're catching on. And there's a special kind of love that two adults can share, and often, when they feel that way, they marry each other, so they can build a life and family around that love. A lot of people think that's what marriage is for. I understand that you think it's just to facilitate reproduction, and all I can say is that I feel sorry for you, and hope that you experience true committed marital love one day.

 

[Autodidact]

Thanks darken, I am sorry for the theatrics, it is just she has brought this subject several times before, that homosexuality makes you brilliant. I am glad that you get it and hope the she does as well, you are not married so I don’t think that you could help, but the truth is that we get married driven initially by an instinct to multiply, physical attraction or erotic love, culture and tradition modifies this to higher and higher standards, that’s how we make it last beyond the time where our physical appearance changes and our drive decreases, hope the this isn’t too technical.

No, I don't think being gay makes you brilliant, and there are as many dull gay people as brilliant ones, I assure you. I understand that you married out of an instinct to multiply. Some of us value and organize our lives around love, which seems to bother you for some reason.

 

[Storm]

Didn’t she say that I should be thankful to the brilliant mathematician that won WW II? “you owe a debt to Alan Turing, a homosexual, who played a huge part in defeating the Nazis” and got we into the same argument.
“you have benefited by the work of homosexuals, I promise you” I really didn’t know anything about this fellow and I argued that it was not his homosexuality that made him a brilliant mathematician. So sorry but you a wrong!

Yes, she did, and she's right. What she did NOT say was that homosexuality was the cause of his brilliance. That's almost as stupid as your strawman about no third gender.

 

[Autodidact]

Didn’t she say that I should be thankful to the brilliant mathematician that won WW II? “you owe a debt to Alan Turing, a homosexual, who played a huge part in defeating the Nazis” and got we into the same argument.
“you have benefited by the work of homosexuals, I promise you” I really didn’t know anything about this fellow and I argued that it was not his homosexuality that made him a brilliant mathematician. So sorry but you a wrong!

Yes, and you should. If you will recall, my point was that when you said you don't interact with any gay people, you were mistaken. You work with and live in the same neighborhood as many gay people, and you owe your freedom to one. Being gay didn't make him a brilliant mathematician, but it didn't prevent it, either. What prevented the world from getting the further benefit of his work was anti-gay persecution, which is an evil that needs to be eradicated, like all forms of bigotry and prejudice.

 

[Autodidact]

Somehow I confused you, I said that at first our attraction in seeking a partner is instinctive, obviously you are a better man than I was in my youth, I was a real ***, with a one way mind, I lied, promised, persisted till I got my way, that went on till I married, I changed in a way that even I could not understand, I renounced to all, I repented of the things I did, my thought were changed, we have our first child and 14 month later another, both girls, now I have 3 grandchildren, I don’t drink in excess, I don’t smoke, I became a new man, but I not going to be an hypocrite and say that I didn’t try to get my way with the one is now my wife, she was so beautiful, I just had to have her, even if it meant that I had to marry her. And that was what I had to do, but she changed my life for the better. God has been so good to me, so merciful, he changed me and He did it in such a wonderful way, He did it trough the institution that He Himself established “marriage“.

I believe everything you say here, and appreciate your honesty. Does this relate to the subject in any way? Or is it that you can't move beyond your own experience and understand that not everyone is, or needs to be, like you?

 

[painted wolf]

Somehow I confused you, I said that at first our attraction in seeking a partner is instinctive, obviously you are a better man than I was in my youth, I was a real ***, with a one way mind, I lied, promised, persisted till I got my way, that went on till I married, I changed in a way that even I could not understand, I renounced to all, I repented of the things I did, my thought were changed, we have our first child and 14 month later another, both girls, now I have 3 grandchildren, I don’t drink in excess, I don’t smoke, I became a new man, but I not going to be an hypocrite and say that I didn’t try to get my way with the one is now my wife, she was so beautiful, I just had to have her, even if it meant that I had to marry her. And that was what I had to do, but she changed my life for the better. God has been so good to me, so merciful, he changed me and He did it in such a wonderful way, He did it trough the institution that He Himself established “marriage“.

First off... I'm female.

Second, I'm glad my mate has more self restraint. I'd hate to think the only thing I had going for me was in my pants.

I'm glad you are a better person now... but shouldn't others have that same chance as well?
It isn't just hetero's that benefit from loving stable relationships.

wa:do

 

[emiliano]

Woo hoo! And if you found out your wife was a male would that matter?

Take a page from the god you believe in and try not to enforce your religious beliefs on others. Gay and lesbian people have just as much right to be happy.

As I said before proposition 8 does not ban homosexuality, it bans the extending of marriage certificates to same sex couple, it restored proposition 22 definition of what marriage is, my religion dealt with that long time ago, I am not that way inclined, I know the difference, you con love a friend, but you only marry the opposite sex, homosexuality feelings are so unnatural and rare, there is nothing stopping them defining what these rare behaviour is, name it and extend a certificate, don’t call it marriage. Gay Unions sound nice, doesn’t gay mean happy? And right back to you X stop calling and comparing this aberration to marriage? This is a distorted perception of what marriage is.

 

[Green Gaia]

... homosexuality feelings are so unnatural and rare....

Funny, it feels quite natural to me....what was unnatural was tiring to fit into a "straight" lifestyle and be some thing I'm not. And as for being rare, have you watched cable tv in past couple years? You can't flip the channel without seeing a queer.

 

[emiliano]

First off... I'm female.

Second, I'm glad my mate has more self restraint. I'd hate to think the only thing I had going for me was in my pants.

I'm glad you are a better person now... but shouldn't others have that same chance as well?
It isn't just hetero's that benefit from loving stable relationships.

wa:do

Well, your “mate” is a better male than I was, a saint, I am a male that have a past that was really sinful, a past that I regrate, I know the filthy pit from where my Lord and Saviour rescue me from, I know how He did it. it is was through the institution of marriage, and that is the reason for my objection to same sex marriages, comparing gay’s union to marriage is actually offensive to me and to the majority of people. I don’t see how calling these thing marriages is going to take them from their filthy pit. It is clear to me that when you are in it, you need God’s help, to repent and change, that is the real opportunity.

 

[painted wolf]

So if the institution of marriage saved you... why deny that to others who can benefit from it as well?
Because you find it icky?

There are many religions, mine has no problem with gay marriage. God in my faith loves everyone and made everyone as they are for a reason.

Including my mate.
And yes, I'm very proud of my mate... who was a stellar man and is an even better woman.

It is offensive to me that you feel the right to dictate what I do in my home and what I and my mate do between ourselves and God.

You have no right to come between anyone and God. If God decides that we have done wrong, then let God decide that... We married for reasons of love and fieldelity far beyond the simple need for sex.

Your filthy pit is not ours, nor is it a reflection on our relationship and love.

wa:do

 

[emiliano]

I believe everything you say here, and appreciate your honesty. Does this relate to the subject in any way? Or is it that you can't move beyond your own experience and understand that not everyone is, or needs to be, like you?

We are societal beings, we groups into societies (communities, nations, families) to do this we conform to a common will, we received benefits from the common wealth, protection, orders and a sense of belonging, in order for this to work we forego some things, we conform to the will of the majority in return for the benefits that that we withdraw from it, democracies have ways of consulting what the will of the majority is in referendums, and we must accept that although we are individual and have own values and standards in the end it is the will of the majority that stands, I happen to be in tune with that majority will. I live in a different kind of society, with a different constitution (a constitutional monarchy) we have no illusion in thinking that the rulers of this Nations have to accommodate all of our individual values and standards.

 

[emiliano]

Funny, it feels quite natural to me....what was unnatural was tiring to fit into a "straight" lifestyle and be some thing I'm not. And as for being rare, have you watched cable tv in past couple years? You can't flip the channel without seeing a queer.

I said this before, I don’t watch a great deal of TV, part of the reason is that they have them on as if they were a majority, I can’t say that I know these people though.
You said that trying to fit into a straight life style would be unnatural to you, can you understand the desire of this people to call their unions marriages and claiming equality status for it? I don’t.

 

[Green Gaia]

You said that trying to fit into a straight life style would be unnatural to you, can you understand the desire of this people to call their unions marriages and claiming equality status for it? I don’t.

Yes, I understand it. I'm one of those people calling for it. It is what is right and what is fair.

 

[Autodidact]

We are societal beings, we groups into societies (communities, nations, families) to do this we conform to a common will, we received benefits from the common wealth, protection, orders and a sense of belonging, in order for this to work we forego some things, we conform to the will of the majority in return for the benefits that that we withdraw from it, democracies have ways of consulting what the will of the majority is in referendums, and we must accept that although we are individual and have own values and standards in the end it is the will of the majority that stands, I happen to be in tune with that majority will. I live in a different kind of society, with a different constitution (a constitutional monarchy) we have no illusion in thinking that the rulers of this Nations have to accommodate all of our individual values and standards.

1. There is a limit to the need to conform. Society benefits from diversity, including diversity of sexual orientation. As long as they are not harming anyone, different kinds of people make a positive contribution to the public good, and it is beneficial to society to recognize and include them.
2. Yes, I notice you don't have a problem with discrimination, and by convenient circumstance, you are not the one being discriminated against. May I suggest that if it was your marriage being prohibited, you would see it entirely differently?

 

[Autodidact]

I said this before, I don’t watch a great deal of TV, part of the reason is that they have them on as if they were a majority, I can’t say that I know these people though.
You said that trying to fit into a straight life style would be unnatural to you, can you understand the desire of this people to call their unions marriages and claiming equality status for it? I don’t.

Sure. It's kind of like your desire to call your union marriage and claiming equality for it. Surely you can grasp that.

 

[emiliano]

1. There is a limit to the need to conform. Society benefits from diversity, including diversity of sexual orientation. As long as they are not harming anyone, different kinds of people make a positive contribution to the public good, and it is beneficial to society to recognize and include them.
2. Yes, I notice you don't have a problem with discrimination, and by convenient circumstance, you are not the one being discriminated against. May I suggest that if it was your marriage being prohibited, you would see it entirely differently?

Once more time Auto, proposition 8 prohibit the issuing of marriage certificates to persons of same sex and it because the majority of people defines it as the union between a man and a woman. It does not ban homosexuality.

 

[painted wolf]

If the majority defined sex as a union between two adults regardless of sex, would that acceptable?
If prop 8 had failed would you be arguing against majority rule?

wa:do

 

[emiliano]

So if the institution of marriage saved you... why deny that to others who can benefit from it as well?
Because you find it icky?

There are many religions, mine has no problem with gay marriage. God in my faith loves everyone and made everyone as they are for a reason.

Including my mate.
And yes, I'm very proud of my mate... who was a stellar man and is an even better woman.

It is offensive to me that you feel the right to dictate what I do in my home and what I and my mate do between ourselves and God.

You have no right to come between anyone and God. If God decides that we have done wrong, then let God decide that... We married for reasons of love and fieldelity far beyond the simple need for sex.

Your filthy pit is not ours, nor is it a reflection on our relationship and love.

wa:do

And that is it, the state gave us the right to judge, and we did, it's called a referendum, gay marriage is not going to get you out of your filthy pit, cause the marriage that God instituted is between a man a woman.

 

[darkendless]

And that is it, the state gave us the right to judge, and we did, it's called a referendum, gay marriage is not going to get you out of your filthy pit, cause the marriage that God instituted is between a man a woman.

Tell me Emiliano, in your highly esteemed country how many referendums we've had.

Also please see Gay marriage splits voters - starobserver.com.au

I find it amsuing that you can say Australia is not interested