LDS members should vote for McCain

[idea]

Every now and then I find a LDS member who states they are going to vote for Obama. This is very confusing to me. Utah is a republican state – it is obvious who our prophet and general authorities will be voting for, they will be voting for McCain as should we.

Issue #1 McCain is pro-life, Obama is pro-abortion, and pro infanticide
The church is very clear on their stance on abortion. Why would anyone vote for someone who is pro-abortion? And not just pro-abortion – Obama supports Infanticide – he opposed a bill that said you couldn't kill a baby who was born!!! As a tax payer, you will be paying money to support the murder of innocent children. Obama also supports physician-assisted suicide. Would you vote for someone who does not believe in the sanctity of life? I guess Obama does want to ban the death penalty if he gets into office – he would rather rapists and murderers live than newborn babies.
link

Issue #2 McCain protects traditional marriage, Obama does not.
link
the church has been very clear that members should support traditional marriage in order to preserve the sanctity of the family. From the family proclamation, to letters about same sex marriage issues – all very clear. So, why would any LDS person vote for a president who supports gay/lesbian unions? Why would anyone vote for someone who would destroy the family like this?

Issue #3 Obama wants big socialist government, McCain is for a smaller gov.
Obviously Obama is for higher taxes, larger gov. He wants the gov to control our health care, he wants gov to control businesses, he wants more gun control, he wants gov to control everything – the man is a socialist! The Book of Mormon and church are very clear that a smaller government is better than a larger one – it is all about freedom, not under the rule of a king or socialist…

Alma 46:12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

#4 Obama on religious matters.
Obama will remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Obama will take tuition vouchers away from religious schools.

Need I go on? Please explain to me why any LDS member would vote for Obama? I would not hold it against the church if they issued a letter asking us to vote for McCain in light of the issues that are at stake here.

 

[pwsoldier]

I would not hold it against the church if they issued a letter asking us to vote for McCain in light of the issues that are at stake here.

One thing I've always admired about the LDS church is its strict policy of non-involvement in party politics. The bretheren will no more endorse McCain than they would Romney if he had been nominated. The church has always respected the seperation of church and state, and I don't see that stance changing at all with this election.

 

[Engyo]

Plus the fact that it could seriously imperil the church's tax exempt status.

 

[FFH]

The church is divided 50/50 in that parable of the "Ten Virgins".

Moses asked the children of Israel, "Who's on the Lord's side?".

Jesus Christ has prophesied, "Two will be grinding at the mill, the one will be taken, the other left".

I'm not happy with either candidate, so I most likely will not be voting.

 

[SoyLeche]

it is obvious who our prophet and general authorities will be voting for

I don't think that is obvious at all. I think most of them could probably go either way.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Obama will remove "under god" from the pledge of alligence?? That's a good thing.

When did he say he wanted to kill babies though?? Just because he is for something doesn't mean he can do anything about it though. George Bush is against abortion, and after 8 years of him being in office, it's still legal.

 

[Phasmid]

Issue #1 McCain is pro-life, Obama is pro-abortion, and pro infanticide

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. People will have abortions whether is legal or not. Women are in great danger if they take backstreet abortions; they need to have proper medical attention.

Issue #2 McCain protects traditional marriage, Obama does not.

There will always be gay and lesbian couples, why not let them marry? What harm does it do? It doesn't break up families at all. If someone is gay, then they're gay... simple as that. Allowing gay marrage isn't going to make a heterosexual father of 2 suddenly say, "I'm gay!"

Issue #3 Obama wants big socialist government, McCain is for a smaller gov.

The National Health Service (NHS) here in the UK, while not perfect, has saved many lives and made medical treatment available to all, regardless of personal income. I've not once had a concern about not being able to afford treatment.

#4 Obama on religious matters.

The seperation of church and state is a must for a stable country. You need laws and regulations suited to the times. While the 10 commandments may work well for an individual, it's tricky applying them to an entire country in the modern age.

Why should an atheist pledge allegiance to God? What does it matter if it's taken out of the pledge? You're allegiance will still be to God either way, just don't make others say the same. The USA wasn't founded as a Christian nation.

 

[Watchmen]

Every now and then I find a LDS member who states they are going to vote for Obama. This is very confusing to me. Utah is a republican state – it is obvious who our prophet and general authorities will be voting for, they will be voting for McCain as should we.

Issue #1 McCain is pro-life, Obama is pro-abortion, and pro infanticide
The church is very clear on their stance on abortion. Why would anyone vote for someone who is pro-abortion? And not just pro-abortion – Obama supports Infanticide – he opposed a bill that said you couldn't kill a baby who was born!!! As a tax payer, you will be paying money to support the murder of innocent children. Obama also supports physician-assisted suicide. Would you vote for someone who does not believe in the sanctity of life? I guess Obama does want to ban the death penalty if he gets into office – he would rather rapists and murderers live than newborn babies.
link

Issue #2 McCain protects traditional marriage, Obama does not.
link
the church has been very clear that members should support traditional marriage in order to preserve the sanctity of the family. From the family proclamation, to letters about same sex marriage issues – all very clear. So, why would any LDS person vote for a president who supports gay/lesbian unions? Why would anyone vote for someone who would destroy the family like this?

Issue #3 Obama wants big socialist government, McCain is for a smaller gov.
Obviously Obama is for higher taxes, larger gov. He wants the gov to control our health care, he wants gov to control businesses, he wants more gun control, he wants gov to control everything – the man is a socialist! The Book of Mormon and church are very clear that a smaller government is better than a larger one – it is all about freedom, not under the rule of a king or socialist…

Alma 46:12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

#4 Obama on religious matters.
Obama will remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Obama will take tuition vouchers away from religious schools.

Need I go on? Please explain to me why any LDS member would vote for Obama? I would not hold it against the church if they issued a letter asking us to vote for McCain in light of the issues that are at stake here.

I am voting Obama and I can't wait to respond to your OP. Alas, I have class right now, but will be back.

 

[silvermoon383]

Just because Utah is a Republican state (strange phrase, I never knew political parties owned states...) doesn't mean that all the General Authorities vote Democrat. President Faust was a staunch Democrat.

 

[jonny]

I don't think that is obvious at all. I think most of them could probably go either way.

True. The Obama campaign respects the church enough that Mrs. Obama visited the 1st Presidency when she was in Utah. I never saw the McCain campaign stop off to visit the church authorities when he was in Utah.

Does anyone know if McCain's campaign responded to President Hinckley's death? I was very grateful for the kind words that Obama sent.

 

[jonny]

Nope. Nothing from McCain. Obama called President Monson. He even canceled a campaign stop around the time of the death because he didn't want to distract from President Hinckley's funeral.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois
Last night I spoke with President Thomas Monson and expressed my deepest sympathies to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the passing of President Gordon B. Hinckley.

Tributes to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Public Figures - LDS Newsroom

 

[jonny]

Now that I've made it clear why I believe Obama respects Mormons more than McCain (who is a Southern Baptist, BTW), Let me respond to your attacks.

Issue #1 McCain is pro-life, Obama is pro-abortion, and pro infanticide
The church is very clear on their stance on abortion. Why would anyone vote for someone who is pro-abortion? And not just pro-abortion – Obama supports Infanticide – he opposed a bill that said you couldn't kill a baby who was born!!! As a tax payer, you will be paying money to support the murder of innocent children. Obama also supports physician-assisted suicide. Would you vote for someone who does not believe in the sanctity of life? I guess Obama does want to ban the death penalty if he gets into office – he would rather rapists and murderers live than newborn babies.
link

The LDS Church's official position on abortion allows more cases for abortion than are in the Republican platform. The LDS Church isn't anti-abortion and has no official position on when life begins: Abortion - LDS Newsroom.

If Palin were Vice President she would rather that a rape victim carry a pregnancy to term that came as a result of that rape than allow for any abortions. McCain, thankfully, has a much more rational opinion on the subject.

Issue #2 McCain protects traditional marriage, Obama does not.
link
the church has been very clear that members should support traditional marriage in order to preserve the sanctity of the family. From the family proclamation, to letters about same sex marriage issues – all very clear. So, why would any LDS person vote for a president who supports gay/lesbian unions? Why would anyone vote for someone who would destroy the family like this?

I disagree with the church's position on same-sex marriage. I believe that my position is much more in line with the freedom that the church has wanted in the past for individuals to be able to define marriage according to their consciences.

Issue #3 Obama wants big socialist government, McCain is for a smaller gov.
Obviously Obama is for higher taxes, larger gov. He wants the gov to control our health care, he wants gov to control businesses, he wants more gun control, he wants gov to control everything – the man is a socialist! The Book of Mormon and church are very clear that a smaller government is better than a larger one – it is all about freedom, not under the rule of a king or socialist…

Alma 46:12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

Actually, if McCain is elected president, my taxes won't go down much at all. The taxes of the richest American's will go down, but a tax break for them isn't a tax break for me. I'm over trickle down economics. I'd rather have the money put directly into my pocket. If Obama were elected president, I'd get over a $1000 tax break.

How McCain and Obama will change your tax bill - Jun. 11, 2008

As for the socialist government, I think the Republicans have shown us over the last eight years that they have no intentions to shrink the size of the government and the role it plays in our lives.

#4 Obama on religious matters.
Obama will remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

I don't think the president has the power to do so by himself, but in any case, who really cares? It's just a poem. You can say it however you want.

Obama will take tuition vouchers away from religious schools.

Any references on this?

 

[Watchmen]

I came here to post my reply, but Jonny's done a tremendous job. Perhaps I can participate in any rebuttal.

 

[idea]

One thing I've always admired about the LDS church is its strict policy of non-involvement in party politics. The bretheren will no more endorse McCain than they would Romney if he had been nominated. The church has always respected the seperation of church and state, and I don't see that stance changing at all with this election.

For issues like immigration, trade, nuclear vs. wind/solar, health care – I don’t see it as effecting the church. Moral/ethical issues are a different thing though. On issues such as abortion and defining marriage, absolutely it effects the church. When voting for a candidate, I consider moral/ethical issues as first priority.

The church is divided 50/50 in that parable of the "Ten Virgins".

Moses asked the children of Israel, "Who's on the Lord's side?".

Jesus Christ has prophesied, "Two will be grinding at the mill, the one will be taken, the other left".

I'm not happy with either candidate, so I most likely will not be voting.

Sad thing to see a divided church. I think you should vote – no one will ever find a candidate that will exactly match them, everyone has to compromise, IMO.

Obama will remove "under god" from the pledge of alligence?? That's a good thing.

When did he say he wanted to kill babies though?? Just because he is for something doesn't mean he can do anything about it though. George Bush is against abortion, and after 8 years of him being in office, it's still legal.

He is a baby killer – from his statements and voting record on the federal “Born Alive Infant Protection Act”, debated in Illinois when Obama was a state senator in 2001. The bill would have required that any "viable" fetus surviving a late-term abortion receive sustaining medical care. Obama believes that if the late term abortion did not kill the baby, it is OK for the doctor/nurse to throw the living baby into a trash can and let it die.

The bill was created after it came to light that “Christ Hospital left babies who survived abortion — viable babies whose delivery was induced, and whom the abortionist intended to kill but somehow survived — in a utility room to die.”

One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down’s syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was 21 to 22 weeks old, weighed about ½ pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end, he was so quiet that I couldn’t tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken.

Obama questioned whether the born alive legislation would impede the right to abort and doctor/patient decision-making. He and an American Civil Liberties Union attorney speculated Born Alive would force doctors to resuscitate nonviable aborted babies.”

link

 

[Phasmid]

I think the issue of that bill, which Obama repeatedly opposed, is a lot more complicated than that link sugests.

It opens the old can of worms, "When does life begin?" I don't like the idea of abortion anymore than you, but I think it's legislation is necessary to avoid women seeking out dangerous backstreet abortions. Does it make a difference, medically, if the foetus is outside the womb? It's the same act, in a different environment surely? (I honestly don't know).

 

[idea]

Now that I've made it clear why I believe Obama respects Mormons more than McCain (who is a Southern Baptist, BTW), Let me respond to your attacks.

I would prefer a southern Baptist than Obama’s anti-Semitic
link
racist
American hating
link
Rev Wright.
link

link

The

LDSChurch's official position on abortion allows more cases for abortion than are in the Republican platform. The LDSChurch isn't anti-abortion and has no official position on when life begins: Abortion - LDS Newsroom.

church statement
link

In view of a recent decision of the United States Supreme Court, we feel it necessary to restate the position of the Church on abortion in order that there be no misunderstanding of our attitude.
The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.
Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day, when we are witnessing the frightening evidence of permissiveness leading to sexual immorality.
Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. In dealing with this serious matter, it would be well to keep in mind the word of the Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]
As to the amenability of the sin of abortion to the laws of repentance and forgiveness, we quote the following statement made by President David O. McKay and his counselors, Stephen L Richards and J. Reuben Clark, Jr., which continues to represent the attitude and position of the Church:
“As the matter stands today, no definite statement has been made by the Lord one way or another regarding the crime of abortion. So far as is known, he has not listed it alongside the crime of the unpardonable sin and shedding of innocent human blood. That he has not done so would suggest that it is not in that class of crime and therefore that it will be amenable to the laws of repentance and forgiveness.”
This quoted statement, however, should not, in any sense, be construed to minimize the seriousness of this revolting sin.

DC 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
McCain stance
link

Click here for 30 full quotes on Abortion OR 2 older headlines OR background on Abortion.

• Pro-life and an advocate for the Rights of Man everywhere. (Feb 2008)
• GovWatch: 1999: Don't force women to have illegal operations. (Feb 2008)
• Abortion issue shows what kind of country we are. (Aug 2007)
• Concerned if women undergo illegal dangerous operations. (May 2007)
• Supports federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. (May 2007)
• Prosecute abortion doctors, not women who get them. (Jan 2000)
• “Family Conference” if daughter wanted an abortion. (Jan 2000)
• Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape. (Jan 2000)
• Supports fetal tissue research; against over-intensity. (Jan 2000)
• Overturn Roe v. Wade, but keep incest & rape exceptions. (Jan 2000)
• Support adoption & foster care; work together on abortion. (Oct 1999)
• Wants Roe vs. Wade made irrelevant, but would not repeal it. (Aug 1999)
• Opposes partial-birth abortions & public financing. (Aug 1999)
• Nominate justices based on experience, and values. (Jun 1999)
• Restrict abortions; no partial-birth; no public funding. (Jul 1998)

• If Palin were Vice President she would rather that a rape victim carry a pregnancy to term that came as a result of that rape than allow for any abortions. McCain, thankfully, has a much more rational opinion on the subject.

McCain is the one who is going to be president.

I disagree with the church's position on same-sex marriage.

I agree with the church.

Actually, if McCain is elected president, my taxes won't go down much at all. The taxes of the richest American's will go down, but a tax break for them isn't a tax break for me. I'm over trickle down economics. I'd rather have the money put directly into my pocket. If Obama were elected president, I'd get over a $1000 tax break.

You think that a tax on one of us does not effect all of us? The rich businesses will pass any taxes – plus or minus – on to the consumers. When you buy groceries, medicine, cloths, gas etc. at the store – the price is set by how much those businesses are taxed. Taxing the upper 5% is a tax to yourself, as you will be buying their products and receiving your paychecks from them. I am more conservative than McCain, but McCain is a lot better than Obama. I’m sorry, but European-style tax rates will mean European-style stagnation.

As an example, did you know that right now Exxon pays more tax than 50% of Americans combined.
link

In 2007 Exxon paid 30 billion in taxes. Exxon does not have to be based in America, it is an international company. Any more tax increases, and I think they, along with others, will relocate to a lower tax country, taking their 30 billion with them. Do you think America is the only country they can sell to? Do you really want to push these companies out?

As for the socialist government, I think the Republicans have shown us over the last eight years that they have no intentions to shrink the size of the government and the role it plays in our lives.

I disagree.
Republicans have done what they can to reduce taxes, decrease gov programs – no help from the senate.

I don't think the president has the power to do so by himself,

you are right, speaking of which, ...
Do you support the senate? The last I saw, they had a 10% approval rating. Obama is the same ticket as the senate you know – both brought to you by the democratic party.

but in any case, who really cares? It's just a poem. You can say it however you want.

not a poem – it is our country.

 

[idea]

I think the issue of that bill, which Obama repeatedly opposed, is a lot more complicated than that link sugests.

It opens the old can of worms, "When does life begin?" I don't like the idea of abortion anymore than you, but I think it's legislation is necessary to avoid women seeking out dangerous backstreet abortions. Does it make a difference, medically, if the foetus is outside the womb? It's the same act, in a different environment surely? (I honestly don't know).

They are babies in or out of the womb. Life begins at conception. Either way, you are killing a human being - a human with their own heart beat, with a mind, that can hear, taste, and smell. link. A few years ago we did not know as much about what a fetus is. The more we learn about what happens inside a womb, the more we know that the fetus is a living human being.

 

[idea]

Any references on this?

Obama opposed all private school vouchers. He, like Marx, wants the gov to control all education.

link



"Free education for all children in public schools." Karl Marx---Communist Manifesto, published 1848

This is what Obama wants.

 

[jonny]

Obama opposed all private school vouchers. He, like Marx, wants the gov to control all education.

link



"Free education for all children in public schools." Karl Marx---Communist Manifesto, published 1848

This is what Obama wants.

That's not what you said the first time. You implied that he's targeting religious schools. Spin, spin, spin. I don't get what that quote has to do with your argument. Are you saying that you want parents to start paying tuition at public schools?

 

[jonny]

You think that a tax on one of us does not effect all of us? The rich businesses will pass any taxes – plus or minus – on to the consumers. When you buy groceries, medicine, cloths, gas etc. at the store – the price is set by how much those businesses are taxed. Taxing the upper 5% is a tax to yourself, as you will be buying their products and receiving your paychecks from them. I am more conservative than McCain, but McCain is a lot better than Obama. I’m sorry, but European-style tax rates will mean European-style stagnation.

As an example, did you know that right now Exxon pays more tax than 50% of Americans combined.
link

In 2007 Exxon paid 30 billion in taxes. Exxon does not have to be based in America, it is an international company. Any more tax increases, and I think they, along with others, will relocate to a lower tax country, taking their 30 billion with them. Do you think America is the only country they can sell to? Do you really want to push these companies out?

I don't care. I understand all the theories behind trickle down economics, but I've also seen the reality - the income gap in the United States has grown, not declined, since the Reagan years. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. I'm not going to vote for a tax cut for someone else with the hope that they'll be kind and throw a few pennies my way. I'd rather just keep the money I earned in the first place.

Republicans have done what they can to reduce taxes, decrease gov programs – no help from the senate.

You do realize that Republicans have controlled the senate for much of the time that Bush has been president. The Republicans did everything they could to grow the government bureaucracy. I don't think anyone could argue that Bush was more responsible with the budget than Clinton.

you are right, speaking of which, ...
Do you support the senate? The last I saw, they had a 10% approval rating. Obama is the same ticket as the senate you know – both brought to you by the democratic party.

I'm not voting for the Democratic Party. I'm voting against the Republican Party. It is filled with liars, hate-mongers, bigots, and self-righteous Christians(TM) who are gunning for a theocracy.

not a poem – it is our country.

Our country is not a poem that was written in the late 1800s and had "under God" added in the 1950s out of fear of communism.