• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

LDS members should vote for McCain

SoyLeche

meh...
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
I'd say it is probably more like "the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer" - but perhaps I'm wrong.

According to the IRS ( http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf ) of those who were in the bottom income quintile in 1996, about 50% of them were earning more than 100% more in 2005 than they were in 1996. Of those in the top 1% (in 1996), 40% of them were earning half as much in 2005. The lowest quitile's median income increased 90% in those 10 years, while the top 1%'s median income decreased 26%.

This doesn't really tell the whole story, and it may not even tell all that much - but I'm still not convinced that "the poor are getting poorer" in any sense other than "in comparison to the rich" (and possibly in purchasing power - stupid weak dollar!).

Anyway - any other analysis of actual numbers would be appreciated :)
 

pwsoldier

unapologetic freethinker
Edit: I failed to notice that this thread was moved. I guess this'll be my last word on the issue.

For issues like immigration, trade, nuclear vs. wind/solar, health care – I don’t see it as effecting the church. Moral/ethical issues are a different thing though. On issues such as abortion and defining marriage, absolutely it effects the church. When voting for a candidate, I consider moral/ethical issues as first priority.

I don't see how moral issues affect the church. The church can keep it's own stance on things like abortion and gay marriage regardless of what laws the government passes. It may lose it's tax-exempt status, but that doesn't bother me in the least.


I would prefer a southern Baptist than Obama’s anti-Semitic racist American hating Rev Wright.

Wright isn't running for president, Obama is. And I think it's been made perfectly clear that Obama's views don't necassarily reflect the views of his pastor.

In view of a recent decision of the United States Supreme Court, we feel it necessary to restate the position of the Church on abortion in order that there be no misunderstanding of our attitude.
The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.
Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day, when we are witnessing the frightening evidence of permissiveness leading to sexual immorality.
Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. In dealing with this serious matter, it would be well to keep in mind the word of the Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]
As to the amenability of the sin of abortion to the laws of repentance and forgiveness, we quote the following statement made by President David O. McKay and his counselors, Stephen L Richards and J. Reuben Clark, Jr., which continues to represent the attitude and position of the Church:
“As the matter stands today, no definite statement has been made by the Lord one way or another regarding the crime of abortion. So far as is known, he has not listed it alongside the crime of the unpardonable sin and shedding of innocent human blood. That he has not done so would suggest that it is not in that class of crime and therefore that it will be amenable to the laws of repentance and forgiveness.”
This quoted statement, however, should not, in any sense, be construed to minimize the seriousness of this revolting sin.

Please note the reassigned emphasis. I don't know of many Republicans who support abortions for the exceptions mentioned. I know for a fact that Palin doesn't, and yet she's gone on record as saying that her daughter chose to keep her baby. I know she's not the one you're trying to put in the oval office, but as McCain's second-in-command, I think her views should be taken just as seriously.

You think that a tax on one of us does not effect all of us? The rich businesses will pass any taxes – plus or minus – on to the consumers. When you buy groceries, medicine, cloths, gas etc. at the store – the price is set by how much those businesses are taxed. Taxing the upper 5% is a tax to yourself, as you will be buying their products and receiving your paychecks from them. I am more conservative than McCain, but McCain is a lot better than Obama. I’m sorry, but European-style tax rates will mean European-style stagnation.

As an example, did you know that right now Exxon pays more tax than 50% of Americans combined.
link

In 2007 Exxon paid 30 billion in taxes. Exxon does not have to be based in America, it is an international company. Any more tax increases, and I think they, along with others, will relocate to a lower tax country, taking their 30 billion with them. Do you think America is the only country they can sell to? Do you really want to push these companies out?

So explain to me how Exxon's profit margins get bigger every year while the price of gas continues to go up. Trickle economics has never worked, and we've been playing around with it for what, almost 30 years now?

not a poem – it is our country.

No, it's a poem. And as Jonny mentioned, the "under God" wasn't added until the Red Scare of the '50s.

Obama opposed all private school vouchers. He, like Marx, wants the gov to control all education.

link



"Free education for all children in public schools." Karl Marx---Communist Manifesto, published 1848

This is what Obama wants.

I see nothing wrong with this. If parents want to send their kids to a private school, fine. But by doing so they're turning down the state-funded education system, so they should be paying the full cost without the government's assistance. After all, we have enough difficulty finding money for the public schools. Why should we be giving any to the private schools?
 
Last edited:

idea

Question Everything
That's not what you said the first time. You implied that he's targeting religious schools. Spin, spin, spin. I don't get what that quote has to do with your argument. Are you saying that you want parents to start paying tuition at public schools?

Most private schools are religious.

The point of the vouchers is so anyone can go to any school - so a poor person can still go to a private school. Do you think it is right to force poor kids into public schools while rich kids have a choice of going wherever they want? so much for Obama sticking up for the rights of the downtrodden poor. Gov control over education is more important to him than the choice of poor kids for what school to go to.

I see nothing wrong with this. If parents want to send their kids to a private school, fine. But by doing so they're turning down the state-funded education system, so they should be paying the full cost without the government's assistance. After all, we have enough difficulty finding money for the public schools. Why should we be giving any to the private schools?

again, you don't want poor kids to have the same opportunities as rich kids? You think the gov should control education of the poor? Only the rich don’t have to be brainwashed with gov education?

Edit: I failed to notice that this thread was moved. I guess this'll be my last word on the issue.

sorry, LDS area not meant for debate, I'll see if I can move it over to gen debates...

I don't see how moral issues affect the church. The church can keep it's own stance on things like abortion and gay marriage regardless of what laws the government passes. It may lose it's tax-exempt status, but that doesn't bother me in the least.

The gov would be forcing me to do something against my relig beliefs by forcing me to pay taxes that would go towards funding abortions. Religious freedom would entail not forcing me to do something against my conscious.

Wright isn't running for president, Obama is. And I think it's been made perfectly clear that Obama's views don't necassarily reflect the views of his pastor.

Obama has horrible horrible friends - everyone says "don't judge him by his friends". Sorry, but birds of a feather flock together. I do and will continue to judge Obama by who his friends are.

McCain is a great guy, and he has great friends.


Please note the reassigned emphasis. I don't know of many Republicans who support abortions for the exceptions mentioned. I know for a fact that Palin doesn't, and yet she's gone on record as saying that her daughter chose to keep her baby. I know she's not the one you're trying to put in the oval office, but as McCain's second-in-command, I think her views should be taken just as seriously.


consider this scenario. Siamese twins joined at the waist or head or something – two people, two hearts, two minds, two sets of eyes etc… one body. Let’s say one of the Siamese twins does not want to be attached to this other person. Has very good reasons for not wanting to be attached. Unfortunately, a surgery to disconnect them will kill one of the people. Let’s say one of the Siamese twins takes her sister to court, testifies how much stress and emotional anguish it is for her, how she can’t live this way. Do you think it is OK to kill one sister because of the mental trauma she causes her twin? How would you vote in such a case?


So explain to me how Exxon's profit margins get bigger every year while the price of gas continues to go up. Trickle economics has never worked, and we've been playing around with it for what, almost 30 years now?

Actually, their profits are not that large. They have been taken to court over and over again for it, and won all of their cases because they do not have large profits.


Exxon is the red bar - compare to the other industries. They are not making obscene profits.

enlarged_industry_earnings.jpg



link

Exxon is a great American company. I would much rather support them than say... CITGO that is 100% owned by Hugo Chavez... Why does anyone want to bring down American companies? I say support America by supporting American companies.
 
Last edited:

idea

Question Everything
The lowest quitile's median income increased 90% in those 10 years, while the top 1%'s median income decreased 26%.

I'm still not convinced that "the poor are getting poorer"

I do not think the poor are getting poorer. I think they have never had it better.
 

idea

Question Everything
How many poor people do you know, or interact with on a regular basis?

I have been poor – I spent 6 years living off $1,000 a month and less while getting through college. I worked hard, lived with few possessions, paid my 10% tithing, and somehow paid off all my student loans while still a student.

I am now our ward’s relief society secretary – the largest women’s organization in the world. I work with a lot of poor people, deal with health care issues, education issues, single parents, etc. etc. Our church (not the government) does a great job helping everyone get up on their feet. Most of the people I know are pretty nice. They are willing to volunteer and help people out without the government to force them.

JMO – but those I see on welfare, they think it is somehow owed to them, they don’t think anyone has sacrificed to give them that money, they don’t appreciate it as much. Those who are helped by volunteers seem to get on their feet faster. They personally know the people where that money is coming from, they know people care for them, they know people love them and want them to succeed. People helping because they want to help – not because they are forced to help – they feel loved and supported by money given voluntarily.

link providing in the Lord's way

link
In 2007 the Church responded to major earthquakes in 5 countries, massive fires in 6 countries, hunger and famine in 18 countries, and flooding and severe storms in 34 countries. In total the Church and its members responded to 170 major events—nearly one every two days for the entire year. It was a busy year with many opportunities to serve.
In addition to responding to natural disasters, we undertook thousands of public health initiatives during the year. Over 1 million people benefited from Church-sponsored clean water projects in 25 countries. More than 60,500 people received wheelchairs in 60 nations. Early this year Sister Burton and I, with the South America North Area Presidency, participated with the First Lady of Colombia in a wheelchair presentation. Tears came easily as receivers and their caregivers expressed their appreciation. In 11 countries, over 54,000 individuals now enjoy improved vision. Over 16,500 health-care professionals in 23 countries were trained in infant neonatal resuscitation; they, in turn, will train many others. In a quest to eliminate measles, 2.8 million children and youth in 10 countries received immunizations. The combined effects of these outreach endeavors directly touched nearly 4 million people in 85 countries.
In August a major 8.0 earthquake killed 520 people and destroyed more than 58,000 homes in southern Peru. In a marvelous display of love and concern, each of the 29 stakes in Lima, Peru, provided basic assistance to ward areas in the devastated region....

all without being forced to do this - all volunteer.
 
Last edited:

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Fair enough. I personally see that it is harder now for poor people to make ends meet and pull themselves out of poverty than it has been for decades in this country.....I don't personally see the better off than ever.
 

Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
Every now and then I find a LDS member who states they are going to vote for Obama. This is very confusing to me. Utah is a republican state – it is obvious who our prophet and general authorities will be voting for, they will be voting for McCain as should we.

Issue #1 McCain is pro-life, Obama is pro-abortion, and pro infanticide
The church is very clear on their stance on abortion. Why would anyone vote for someone who is pro-abortion? And not just pro-abortion – Obama supports Infanticide – he opposed a bill that said you couldn't kill a baby who was born!!! As a tax payer, you will be paying money to support the murder of innocent children. Obama also supports physician-assisted suicide. Would you vote for someone who does not believe in the sanctity of life? I guess Obama does want to ban the death penalty if he gets into office – he would rather rapists and murderers live than newborn babies.
link

It's a parents choice not yours.


Issue #2 McCain protects traditional marriage, Obama does not.
link
the church has been very clear that members should support traditional marriage in order to preserve the sanctity of the family. From the family proclamation, to letters about same sex marriage issues – all very clear. So, why would any LDS person vote for a president who supports gay/lesbian unions? Why would anyone vote for someone who would destroy the family like this?




Who cares what sex people are as long as they love each other? How is gay marriage destoying familes? Please let us know.....


#4 Obama on religious matters.
Obama will remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Obama will take tuition vouchers away from religious schools.

Where is your proof of this? Sounds like your being very Paranoid & want others to believe this so you can push your way of thinking on others.
 

idea

Question Everything
It's a parents choice not yours.

So... if your parent wanted to kill you, you would be ok with that?


Who cares what sex people are as long as they love each other?

their children. taxpayers. businesses. Marriage tax relief was created to support children etc...

That is for another thread though. The point for this one is not to debate right/wrong but to debate what candidate better represents LDS (and perhaps Christian) views. As a good "LDS" or good "Christian" - if they really believe and follow and are true to their church, would vote McCain.

Where is your proof of this? Sounds like your being very Paranoid & want others to believe this so you can push your way of thinking on others.

link Under God, not under Obama

link 40 min Obama speaking on relig
Obama is very big on separation of church and state.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So... if your parent wanted to kill you, you would be ok with that?

There is no "you" to be "ok" with anything. Whenever you ovulate, do you ask your eggs if it's okay for them not to be fertilized? Do you not "kill" a potential person each time?
 

Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
So... if your parent wanted to kill you, you would be ok with that?


It would nto be my call on that.

their children. taxpayers. businesses. Marriage tax relief was created to support children etc...


So this is really about money... I should of known. Gay people can have kids to you know...


That is for another thread though. The point for this one is not to debate right/wrong but to debate what candidate better represents LDS (and perhaps Christian) views. As a good "LDS" or good "Christian" - if they really believe and follow and are true to their church, would vote McCain.



link Under God, not under Obama

link 40 min Obama speaking on relig
Obama is very big on separation of church and state.



So am I
 

idea

Question Everything
There is no "you" to be "ok" with anything. Whenever you ovulate, do you ask your eggs if it's okay for them not to be fertilized? Do you not "kill" a potential person each time?

link

fetus-human-6week.jpg
flowers-muscari-blue.jpg

Human embryo - just 6 weeks after conception. All the parts have been in place for two weeks, and brain waves are now detectable.​

a human, that can think and see and hear and feel. has their own blood type, their own mind, their own heart etc. etc. A living feeling thinking human.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
once again though, I did not want this to be an abortion/homosexual thread. The point, if you are a Christian who is against abortion and a supporter of traditional marriage, why would you not vote for McCain?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The point, if you are a Christian who is against abortion and a supporter of traditional marriage, why would you not vote for McCain?

I cannot speak for them but maybe, just maybe, some Christians respect the rights and liberty of others; the very things that define this nation and make it great? Also, isn't there more to being a Christian than merely hating gay's and women's rights? Like, you know, Christ's teachings? Like love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, judge not less yet be judged, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven, don't point out the speck in another's eye when you have a plank in yours, being charitable and helping the poor, etc, etc? How do the republican's embody any of that?
 
Last edited:

jonny

Well-Known Member
As was the very people who founded this nation, and as is any real patriot. :D

Seriously, the Mormons already tried the whole theocracy thing and it didn't work out so hot. I can't understand why any Mormon wouldn't be big on the separation of church and state. The "church" that would be running the "state" isn't exactly friendly to the Mormons.
 

idea

Question Everything
Gay people can have kids to you know...


I know, and I believe that a two-parent, mother-and-father family is the best.
Start another thread if you want to debate this.

Again, do you think religious people - if they are true to their faith - would vote for McCain?
 

idea

Question Everything
I cannot speak for them but maybe, just maybe, some Christians respect the rights and liberty of others; the very things that define this nation and make it great? Also, isn't there more to being a Christian than merely hating gay's and women's rights? Like, you know, Christ's teachings? Like love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, judge not less yet be judged, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven, don't point out the speck in another's eye when you have a plank in yours, etc, etc? Who do the republican's embody any of that?

I respect the rights of babies.

I don't hate anyone - just like I don't hate someone who has cancer, feel sorry for them, but do not hate them.

The family is the fundamental unit of society. Attack/redefine the family, and you tear down all of society. Redefine marriage for one group, and where does it stop? Gov is about holding society together. Society depends on strong families.
 
Last edited:
Top