Leaving liberal religion

[LuisDantas]

Why do you think so?

Divinity as a source of morality is, well, a Deus ex Machina. It does not really work unless one is feeling very dogmatic.

Morality, to really make sense, must be understood rationally and guided by the perceived consequences of choices and actions.

Karma as a concept, despite frequent misconceptions, is just the word for "action". Karmic religious practice is nothing more or less than the discipline of perceiving and applying the rational chains of causes and effects.

It does not really have any functional room for supernatural concepts, and at least arguably suffers from efforts to meld any into it.

 

[Koldo]

Divinity as a source of morality is, well, a Deus ex Machina. It does not really work unless one is feeling very dogmatic.

I agree with you.

Morality, to really make sense, must be understood rationally and guided by the perceived consequences of choices and actions.

Indeed.

Karma as a concept, despite frequent misconceptions, is just the word for "action". Karmic religious practice is nothing more or less than the discipline of perceiving and applying the rational chains of causes and effects.

It does not really have any functional room for supernatural concepts, and at least arguably suffers from efforts to meld any into it.

Consider, for instance, the following sentence: "Good actions generate good karma, and bad actions generate bad karma". This is a core notion tied to karma, which without a moral guideline is completely empty. If there isn't anything you can do to determine what is good and what is bad, then that sentence is devoid of meaning. Karma becomes unrelated to morality.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

You entire perception of the world and life is based on you physical senses. For example, visible light is merely a small part of the full electromagnetic spectrum, which extends from cosmic rays at the highest energies down through the middle range, all the way to induction-heating and electric-power-transmission frequencies at the lowest energies; you might not see them all but they are there.
The same goes to your hearing capacity, your smell and what you can touch.
There are plenty of things we can't perceive but they exist.
What makes you so sure that doesn't apply in a spiritual realm?
Do you really think your perception of life is all there is?

Things I can't perceive;

My invisible friend,
Unicorns,
Ghosts,
Fairies,
Thor,
Hobbits,
Smaug,
Angels,
Leviathan,


How do you conclude they exist?

 

[LuisDantas]

Consider, for instance, the following sentence: "Good actions generate good karma, and bad actions generate bad karma". This is a core notion tied to karma, which without a moral guideline is completely empty. If there isn't anything you can do to determine what is good and what is bad, then that sentence is devoid of meaning. Karma becomes unrelated to morality.

Well, yes. I fail to see the problem, though. Are you implying that there is such a challenge?

 

[SkylarHunter]

Isn't it only fair that reason can also be used to conclude that certain things probably don't exist?

You can say reason can be used to conclude that certain things probably don't exist or that they probably exist, whatever works for you.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Things I can't perceive;

My invisible friend,
Unicorns,
Ghosts,
Fairies,
Thor,
Hobbits,
Smaug,
Angels,
Leviathan,

How do you conclude they exist?

I din't mention any of those things on my post, but I do believe in a number of things I can't see, touch, smell or taste.

I also believe that the purpose of science is to figure things out and there are many things that will continue to be no more than speculation until the day they can finally be properly explained - whenever that may be.

 

[Koldo]

Well, yes. I fail to see the problem, though. Are you implying that there is such a challenge?

The problem exists to those who want more from 'karma'.

 

[Koldo]

You can say reason can be used to conclude that certain things probably don't exist or that they probably exist, whatever works for you.

That's exactly what the OP did.

 

[Around]

"There are plenty of things we can't perceive but they exist."


How many should we invent stories about?

 

[Penumbra]

Friends,

A couple of years ago I announced that I was no longer an atheist. I became a Unitarian Universalist and I started to gravitate very strongly towards "panendeism". I just couldn't let go of the idea that there were objective moral values and that they couldn't originate in human consciousness. I have renounced Unitarian Universalism. I once again consider myself an atheist. I started a spiritual journey, seriously wondering if there was any kind of higher being "out there" that maybe I overlooked. I have come to the conclusion that there probably isn't. I see no reason to believe that any kind of divine being exists.

However, I have let go of this idea that there has to be objective moral values or that there is an objective purpose to life. This psychological need of mine was what led me to experiment with liberal religion. I now seriously believe that I was just fooling myself. I believe that this life is all there is to it and that there is probably nothing "out there". I am convinced that if there is any kind of divine being out there, this being would've revealed itself to me and everyone else sometime ago. But nothing happened.

I do not consider myself a Secular Humanist again. For me, Humanism seems to embrace the possibility of naturalistic ethics. I am convinced that free will doesn't exist and there exists no such thing as moral values. So I conclude that I am a moral skeptic in addition to being a free-will skeptic. I am now convinced that everything human beings do, they do because of basic selfishness and that's all.

I don't hate religion. I don't hate holy books. I still retain a fondness for Unitarian Universalism but I can't see any point of being one if no divine being exists and I am strongly skeptical and disbelieve that any exist. If I am wrong about this, a divine being can correct me but none has all of this time so I am not holding my breath. I remember reading one book titled Moving Beyond the Christian Myth by one author named John W Sloat. He talked about how he woke up at 4:44 in the morning after reading a book about angels. I have read a number of stories over the years about people waking up at 4:44 in the morning or seeing some kind of pattern of 444. This number, 444, is supposed to be a number of angels and people who see it are being contacted by angels.

For months and months, over the last year, I tested this. Every time that I woke up, I would honestly check my alarm clock to see if it was 4:44 AM. This never happened. My conclusion? Angels as well as other supernatural beings probably do not exist. I have never seen evidence, in my life, of any angels, divine beings, reincarnation, near-death experiences, prebirth experiences, or any of that. Nothing. I believe that the supernatural probably isn't real and I have concluded that if the supernatural is real, I would've encountered some convincing evidence by now. Nothing. Ergo, I am back to being an atheist.

There seems to be a theme there of linking things together that do not necessarily have to be linked.

For example, many Unitarian Universalists are atheists/humanists/agnostics, etc. Not all UUs believe that something is, "out there". Many do, some don't. Considering that UU for the most part lacks a creed, it's hard to see how it can be something that is "renounced".

Second, I don't see how the objectivity of moral values is related to theism at all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Things I can't perceive;

My invisible friend,
Unicorns,
Ghosts,
Fairies,
Thor,
Hobbits,
Smaug,
Angels,
Leviathan,


How do you conclude they exist?

Just because you personally haven't experienced or perceived something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Just because you personally haven't experienced or perceived something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And vice versa.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And vice versa.

Disagree.

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem exists to those who want more from 'karma'.

Far as I understand it, that just means that some people have unreasonable expectations from the concept.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Disagree.

On what grounds?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

On what grounds?

If you experience something, it is "real" to you even if no one else has experienced it.

 

[Matthew78]

You entire perception of the world and life is based on you physical senses. For example, visible light is merely a small part of the full electromagnetic spectrum, which extends from cosmic rays at the highest energies down through the middle range, all the way to induction-heating and electric-power-transmission frequencies at the lowest energies; you might not see them all but they are there.

Well that and whatever rational inferences I can make about the world around me. I don't see anything wrong with this.

The same goes to your hearing capacity, your smell and what you can touch.

Sure.

There are plenty of things we can't perceive but they exist.

What do you have in mind? I infer some abstract ideas based on perception that I am convinced do exist. For instance, atoms and molecules. I can't directly observe them, hear them, taste them, and perceive them in other ways. But I infer them based upon my sensory perception.

What makes you so sure that doesn't apply in a spiritual realm?

I am skeptical that there really is such thing as a "spiritual realm". I am open to changing my mind.

Do you really think your perception of life is all there is?

Where did I say I think my perception of life is all that there is?

 

[Muffled]

Friends,

A couple of years ago I announced that I was no longer an atheist. I became a Unitarian Universalist and I started to gravitate very strongly towards "panendeism". I just couldn't let go of the idea that there were objective moral values and that they couldn't originate in human consciousness. I have renounced Unitarian Universalism. I once again consider myself an atheist. I started a spiritual journey, seriously wondering if there was any kind of higher being "out there" that maybe I overlooked. I have come to the conclusion that there probably isn't. I see no reason to believe that any kind of divine being exists.

However, I have let go of this idea that there has to be objective moral values or that there is an objective purpose to life. This psychological need of mine was what led me to experiment with liberal religion. I now seriously believe that I was just fooling myself. I believe that this life is all there is to it and that there is probably nothing "out there". I am convinced that if there is any kind of divine being out there, this being would've revealed itself to me and everyone else sometime ago. But nothing happened.

I do not consider myself a Secular Humanist again. For me, Humanism seems to embrace the possibility of naturalistic ethics. I am convinced that free will doesn't exist and there exists no such thing as moral values. So I conclude that I am a moral skeptic in addition to being a free-will skeptic. I am now convinced that everything human beings do, they do because of basic selfishness and that's all.

I don't hate religion. I don't hate holy books. I still retain a fondness for Unitarian Universalism but I can't see any point of being one if no divine being exists and I am strongly skeptical and disbelieve that any exist. If I am wrong about this, a divine being can correct me but none has all of this time so I am not holding my breath. I remember reading one book titled Moving Beyond the Christian Myth by one author named John W Sloat. He talked about how he woke up at 4:44 in the morning after reading a book about angels. I have read a number of stories over the years about people waking up at 4:44 in the morning or seeing some kind of pattern of 444. This number, 444, is supposed to be a number of angels and people who see it are being contacted by angels.

For months and months, over the last year, I tested this. Every time that I woke up, I would honestly check my alarm clock to see if it was 4:44 AM. This never happened. My conclusion? Angels as well as other supernatural beings probably do not exist. I have never seen evidence, in my life, of any angels, divine beings, reincarnation, near-death experiences, prebirth experiences, or any of that. Nothing. I believe that the supernatural probably isn't real and I have concluded that if the supernatural is real, I would've encountered some convincing evidence by now. Nothing. Ergo, I am back to being an atheist.

Ibelieve the Bible happened.

I believe you should consider yourself corrected.

 

[Koldo]

If you experience something, it is "real" to you even if no one else has experienced it.

Notice how you said the word 'real'.

 

[Muffled]

If some divine thaumaturgist wanted recognition and complience, you'd think he'd be able to make his presence known and his rules and regs clear and unambiguous.

Perhaps most people's reaction is like Peter who told Jesus to go away because Peter considered himself a sinful man.