Leaving RF for a while.

[Quagmire]

It doesn't help, but sometimes it is all the minority can do when again, outright bigotry is cloaked in beliefs, and lies are couched in "common sense".

If we want to stand up for ourselves how are we but to cry out in anger into the black?

Not clicking a report button isn't laziness,

What is it then?

but ignoring the content for the lack of a report button is saddening.

There is no "lack of a report button". Every post in here has a report button in the upper right corner.

Sorry, there's no excuse. To me, this is like sitting on the curb watching your house burn down but refusing to call the fire department, then looking at the ashes and saying "How did this happen? It must be the fire-fighter's fault".

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry to see you go, but I wouldn't let simple bumpkins get the best of you like that...

As a simple bumpkin, I'm offended by that.

 

[waitasec]

Reality check people: RF's staff is comprised completely of volunteers, ie., people who have agreed to donate their time to help keep this place running the way it's supposed to for free. There are staff members here who put in 20, 30, sometimes anywhere up to 40+ hours a week working for you, for free.

Compared to that, is it really too much to ask that when you see something going on in here that needs to be dealt with you move your cursor to the right side of your screen and click on this: " " and then just type in something like "Troll" ?

this is good to know.
i sometimes feel as if that button was something of a bother for staffers...
but after an episode i went through today i get the feeling that the staffers here are really genuinely interested in keeping this forum as a safe haven for free thinkers

and please know, staffers, i'm not so interested in a quick response just as long as it's dealt with...

 

[Alceste]

Some observations:
I see some animosity & opposition to gays. (& Republicans & Democrats & Libertarians & socialists & Xians & Muslims & so on)
But I notice even more hatred & uncivil commentary directed at those who oppose gay marriage. (Hoist by one's own petard, eh?)
It would pay to accept that people will have opposing views, some of which will feel offensive.
We can't beat or insult anyone into becoming more tolerant of an alternative perspective.
But we may discuss & persuade without feeling hatred or smugness.
If you want to change minds, this works best.
Your mental health will benefit too.

Comments like "if we let gay people get married, why not also let people marry 4 year olds or dogs" don't just feel offensive, they are offensive. The subtext is that there is no difference between homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

I am seeing a double standard. If we inserted ANY other minority in the place of "homosexuals" in such a comment, it would not be tolerated. "If we let Negroes drink from our water fountains, why not lepers?" "Mormonism is pretty much the same thing as pedophilia, so why should people be allowed to practice Mormonism?"

See? Offensive. Sure, it's an opinion. I don't like to read these kinds of opinions - that's why I don't go to *edit*

And now it's also why I'm taking a break from RF.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi, everyone. I am taking a break, and I want to be completely clear that my reason for taking a break this time is that RF is filled with rampant, continuous anti-gay hate speech and the moderators, however much I love them, are doing nothing about it.

I'm a laisser-faire kind of person, and I'd be fine with it if they weren't moderating ANYTHING, but I've just had a post of mine edited because I said "god damn", and that's apparently far more offensive than saying homosexuality is the basically same as pedophilia or bestiality.

Alceste,

Normally I don't comment public on specific cases of moderation, but I'll keep my discussion general except where you've specifically mentioned details.

It's been the general approach here on RF that while we moderate things like personal attacks and profanity (which your "god damn" qualifies as, albeit mild profanity by many people's measure), we don't censor ideas... not even when you or any other member finds them offensive.

If someone was to say (for instance) that homosexuality is as bad as pedophilia or bestiality, I would probably find this offensive myself, and as an individual member of the forum, I might decide to respond to the post and argue against the ideas in it. However, as a member of staff, as long as I thought the post was expressing a sincere opinion and wasn't just flame-bait for the purposes of trolling, I wouldn't delete it.

In general, I like to think - and I've told members this who have had their posts moderated - that while a particular expression of an idea might break one of our rules, with very few specific exceptions (e.g. illegal acts or sexually explicit conversation), there's a way for the person to express their idea within the bounds of the rules.

And that's the difference here: your post was edited because of the way your idea was expressed (i.e. because it included profanity), but your objection to those other posts seems to be to the ideas contained within them.

 

[Drolefille]

What is it then?



There is no "lack of a report button". Every post in here has a report button in the upper right corner.

Sorry, there's no excuse. To me, this is like sitting on the curb watching your house burn down but refusing to call the fire department, then looking at the ashes and saying "How did this happen? It must be the fire-fighter's fault".

Sorry, 'for lack of pushing a report button' but regardless her concerns were ignored.

If the fire dept knows the house is burning because the arsonist called already, blaming it on the homeowner seems pointless.

Civility is always an option.

I don't propose ignoring wrongs, but I think responding in kind is counter-productive.

We aren't that far apart.....I notice that you tend towards civility.

It is an option and I generally don't let internet idiots get me down, but sometimes it's still all you can manage.

I prefer civility, but when the response to civility is slander what are we to do.

Again, the Staff cannot see every post made on this forum. We rely heavily on our members to help us see offensive posts. That's why the report button is there from the first day of membership; there's no "special club" or "post minimum requirements" to report a post. Please, let's keep this fair; we always encourage members to report any post they find offensive, etc.

We can't fix what we don't see. In addition to the fact that we don't discuss moderation publicly, it's hard for you all to see what we do backstage.

I'm sorry to see you're so upset, Alceste, but I'm a bit sad you didn't give us the opportunity to rectify this via reporting posts before you reached this point. Please reconsider.

While agreed to an extent it was the tact taken that I objected to. There is room for frustration on all sides, but this simply drives someone away rather than trying to reach a solution to the problem.

I suppose driving someone away 'solves' the problem too, but not really in a good way.

 

[Father Heathen]

Comments like "if we let gay people get married, why not also let people marry 4 year olds or dogs" don't just feel offensive, they are offensive. The subtext is that there is no difference between homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

I am seeing a double standard. If we inserted ANY other minority in the place of "homosexuals" in such a comment, it would not be tolerated. "If we let Negroes drink from our water fountains, why not lepers?" "Mormonism is pretty much the same thing as pedophilia, so why should people be allowed to practice Mormonism?"

See? Offensive. Sure, it's an opinion. I don't like to read these kinds of opinions - that's why I don't go to *edit*

And now it's also why I'm taking a break from RF.

But isn't it more satisfying to crush them in debate rather than retreat in defeat? That's one of my joys of RF. You don't actually think these cretins are formidable opponents, do you?

 

[Apex]

Comments like "if we let gay people get married, why not also let people marry 4 year olds or dogs" don't just feel offensive, they are offensive. The subtext is that there is no difference between homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

I am seeing a double standard. If we inserted ANY other minority in the place of "homosexuals" in such a comment, it would not be tolerated. "If we let Negroes drink from our water fountains, why not lepers?" "Mormonism is pretty much the same thing as pedophilia, so why should people be allowed to practice Mormonism?"

See? Offensive. Sure, it's an opinion. I don't like to read these kinds of opinions - that's why I don't go to *edit*

And now it's also why I'm taking a break from RF.

Many posters on this site like to incessantly bash Republicans/Conservatives and Christians too. And nothing is ever done to them. If you are not getting anywhere with pointing out how the anti-gay people are wrong, just ignore them. Let them rant at a blank screen. Its not like many of their arguments make much sense anyways.

 

[Quagmire]

Sorry, 'for lack of pushing a report button' but regardless her concerns were ignored.

Yeah, you have to voice your concerns out loud if you want them to be attended to.

If the fire dept knows the house is burning because the arsonist called already, blaming it on the homeowner seems pointless.

What are you even talking about now? Are you saying the trolls reported themselves and we ignored those reports?

If you have some crystal ball that lets you see what happens in the staff rooms, you'd better polish it up a bit or get a new one because you're not seeing things very clearly.

 

[beenie]

While agreed to an extent it was the tact taken that I objected to. There is room for frustration on all sides, but this simply drives someone away rather than trying to reach a solution to the problem.

I suppose driving someone away 'solves' the problem too, but not really in a good way

It's late, and I have 4 out of 6 children and a husband who are all down and out with food poisoning. No, I'm not lying. Admittedly, I'm not at my sharpest.

Can you explain what you're saying here? What do you object to, and what did I say that would drive people away?

In addition to the report button, we also have a Site Feedback section, in which ANY member can start a thread and we can address concerns there as well. We have had members do just that, and in my time as a Mod here, I've seen many positive outcomes from discussions there.

Edit: We are NOT superheroes and cannot read minds. Did I miss a thread where concerns were expressed? Again, we can't address what's not presented to us.

 

[Alceste]

While an ideal, an oppressed minority shouldn't be under the expectation of civility when insults are hurled at them couched in polite language - like everyone knows that kids raised by gay people aren't as happy and everyone knows gays are more promiscuous.

Those are direct insults to individuals here, not hypotheticals about others. This is something that the non-minority often neglects to take into account when chastising the minority for being angry.

In my short time here, I notice that most responses start out reasoned and logical and it's only under persistent use of the same poor arguments - not just the fact that the other person doesn't disagree- that people give in and just say EFF YOU BIGOT. I understand the feeling, and if someone has decided they don't want to listen to the other side, but simply preach to hatred to us, expecting us to be the better people puts the onus on the minority rather than the majority.

Exactly. This isn't a purely theoretical issue: My best friend is a lesbian (legally married in the Netherlands). My soon-to-be-father-in-law is gay (gay parent of the love of my life). My old room-mate is a gay warehouse manager whose crew sometimes makes comments like "I think gay people should be shot - they're an abomination". (Needless to say, he hasn't told anyone at work that he's gay.)

I have reached the end of my rope with those threads. If I'm feeling like going on a rampage against anti-gay hate speech, a religious forum might be the wrong place for it. I'm too likely to say things that are offensive to religious people.

 

[Alceste]

Sorry to see you go, but I wouldn't let simple bumpkins get the best of you like that...

Ah, it's just a break because it's winding me up too much at the moment. I'm sure I'll be back. I just wanted to be clear about the reason. I think it merits discussion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Comments like "if we let gay people get married, why not also let people marry 4 year olds or dogs" don't just feel offensive, they are offensive. The subtext is that there is no difference between homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

The examples you cite strike me as just clumsy & histrionic analogies, rather than the extreme vitriol you infer.
But even if they held such heinous views, they can be discussed.
It can become painful, & perhaps then it's best to just avoid them...or report them if rules are violated.

I am seeing a double standard. If we inserted ANY other minority in the place of "homosexuals" in such a comment, it would not be tolerated. "If we let Negroes drink from our water fountains, why not lepers?" "Mormonism is pretty much the same thing as pedophilia, so why should people be allowed to practice Mormonism?"
See? Offensive. Sure, it's an opinion. I don't like to read these kinds of opinions - that's why I don't go to *edit*

I also notice that some of your own language is often quite harsh towards those you disagree with.
It helps to remember that ain't none of us is perfect.

And now it's also why I'm taking a break from RF.

It makes sense to take vacations & recharge.

 

[beenie]

Exactly. This isn't a purely theoretical issue: My best friend is a lesbian (legally married in the Netherlands). My soon-to-be-father-in-law is gay (gay parent of the love of my life). My old room-mate is a gay warehouse manager whose crew sometimes makes comments like "I think gay people should be shot - they're an abomination". (Needless to say, he hasn't told anyone at work that he's gay.)

I have reached the end of my rope with those threads. If I'm feeling like going on a rampage against anti-gay hate speech, a religious forum might be the wrong place for it. I'm too likely to say things that are offensive to religious people.

I've seen lots of posts that are hateful; I've either reported them, answered them, or ignored them. Unfortunately, religion doesn't discriminate; even the most hate-filled morons can claim a religion.

 

[Drolefille]

Yeah, you have to voice your concerns out loud if you want them to be attended to.



What are you even talking about now? Are you saying the trolls reported themselves and we ignored those reports?

If you have some crystal ball that lets you see what happens in the staff rooms, you'd better polish it up a bit or get a new one because you're not seeing things very clearly.

Someone reported her post, so unless only the reported post gets looked at, I have to assume someone looked at least one thread in question. I don't know whether it was the anti-gay bigot or not. I am making an assumption that one doesn't look only at the post in question and looks at some context to the thread. I'm not claiming any other knowledge, purely using reasoning, please direct your snark on that subject somewhere else.

And if nothing else the concerns became public following this thread and my objection was to the response to them here. If you find out about the fire late do you berate the homeowner or put it out?

It's late, and I have 4 out of 6 children and a husband who are all down and out with food poisoning. No, I'm not lying. Admittedly, I'm not at my sharpest.

Can you explain what you're saying here? What do you object to, and what did I say that would drive people away?

No worries, I was objecting to the response here in this thread that would drive people away. You didn't say anything that would. (And I'm sorry about your family, I wouldn't suspect you of lying.)

In addition to the report button, we also have a Site Feedback section, in which ANY member can start a thread and we can address concerns there as well. We have had members do just that, and in my time as a Mod here, I've seen many positive outcomes from discussions there.

Edit: We are NOT superheroes and cannot read minds. Did I miss a thread where concerns were expressed? Again, we can't address what's not presented to us.

I understand, and I know I'm new and still figuring things out about how and when to express concerns. I'm not used to using the report button, for example.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste,

Normally I don't comment public on specific cases of moderation, but I'll keep my discussion general except where you've specifically mentioned details.

It's been the general approach here on RF that while we moderate things like personal attacks and profanity (which your "god damn" qualifies as, albeit mild profanity by many people's measure), we don't censor ideas... not even when you or any other member finds them offensive.

If someone was to say (for instance) that homosexuality is as bad as pedophilia or bestiality, I would probably find this offensive myself, and as an individual member of the forum, I might decide to respond to the post and argue against the ideas in it. However, as a member of staff, as long as I thought the post was expressing a sincere opinion and wasn't just flame-bait for the purposes of trolling, I wouldn't delete it.

In general, I like to think - and I've told members this who have had their posts moderated - that while a particular expression of an idea might break one of our rules, with very few specific exceptions (e.g. illegal acts or sexually explicit conversation), there's a way for the person to express their idea within the bounds of the rules.

And that's the difference here: your post was edited because of the way your idea was expressed (i.e. because it included profanity), but your objection to those other posts seems to be to the ideas contained within them.

OK, I understand what you are saying. I hope you understand my feeling that RF is making a choice about this issue. You are choosing to allow people to regularly argue that there is no difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (as long as they don't cuss in the process) and this choice is probably causing GLTB and gay-positive members to quit the forum, or causing GLTB lurkers not to join.

Really, if you just insert the word "negro" into any of those gay-bashing threads in the place of "homosexual" I am sure you will understand how I feel about it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Many posters on this site like to incessantly bash Republicans/Conservatives and Christians too. And nothing is ever done to them. If you are not getting anywhere with pointing out how the anti-gay people are wrong, just ignore them. Let them rant at a blank screen. Its not like many of their arguments make much sense anyways.

I have to agree with him. As vile as some people's beliefs can be, they're entitled by right to hold and speak them. If someone presents an idea or notion that you believe is false, simply refute it with facts rather than attempt to censor or run from it.

As for being offended...

 

[Father Heathen]

Ah, it's just a break because it's winding me up too much at the moment. I'm sure I'll be back. I just wanted to be clear about the reason. I think it merits discussion.

Redirect that emotional energy back into the debate, and focus it back on them. That's what I do.

 

[kai]

Alceste

we have had our differences over the years but i consider you a very valued member, If you go you will be missed. Take a break if you feel that way but if you stay or come back, always remember the report button.

 

[beenie]

It seems to me there are a few who continue to start/instigate these threads; put them on ignore.

Allowing them to rant to thin air works too.