Leaving the EU has been a disaster for the UK

[Yerda]

They did? I don't remember that. I do remember that they were not in power at the time.

So what are you talking about here? How would Labour be responsible for the Tories' plans?

They campaigned loudly against a soft Brexit, split the Labour party in the run up to a general election knowing that hard-Brexit and a Johnson government was their best chance to regain control of Labour.

And it worked.

And we're all paying for it.

That they need popular support if they hope to win elections and form a government, and there is still far too much sympathy for Brexit at least as an abstract concept?

There was greater support for Brexit when Starmer was advocating a second referendum a couple of years ago.

It's sometimes hard to fathom for me, at least as an outsider looking from across the pond. From what I've heard from various Europeans (not just here on RF), the EU seems to have mixed reviews. Some think it's wonderful, and others, not so much.

Around the same time as the formation of the EU, there were those in North America pushing NAFTA and envisioning a continental/regional economy patterned after the EU, even proposing a common currency, the Amero. There were those who even envisioned AFTA, a unified open trading bloc encompassing the Americas and the entire Western Hemisphere. I actually thought this idea had some promise, but only if it were a democratic-socialist economic structure - which the Powers That Be would never go for.

But in America, as well as in many other countries, there seems to be an underlying resistance to the idea of a "global economy" or any kind of unified "world government," regardless of what form it might take. I myself have mixed views on this, although I have to concede that ultimately, humanity's only hope for survival is to eventually unify in some form or another. I'm just not sure how that would be done or what form it should take.

I feel quite the same.

The EU isn't perfect and there are arguments against it from all over the political spectrum. There are some constraints upon state aid and national ownership that are inconsistent with national sovereignty, imo. And most of the power in the EU is, like America, held by a few large banks. But there are good reasons to be inside a trading bloc rather than outside of it as we're seeing. As well as the relative ease in moving to e.g Amsterdam, Rome, or Prague should the opportunity arise.

 

[Stevicus]

I feel quite the same.

The EU isn't perfect and there are arguments against it from all over the political spectrum. There are some constraints upon state aid and national ownership that are inconsistent with national sovereignty, imo. And most of the power in the EU is, like America, held by a few large banks. But there are good reasons to be inside a trading bloc rather than outside of it as we're seeing. As well as the relative ease in moving to e.g Amsterdam, Rome, or Prague should the opportunity arise.

As a comparison, to draw upon NAFTA and other trade agreements of which America is part, I haven't seen any real tangible benefit to America. If anything, America's relative economic situation and overall position in the world has diminished since NAFTA passed. It hasn't brought about any real benefit to America, and all the outsourcing and extreme dependence on foreign suppliers for even simple, mundane items like toilet paper, have certainly not benefited America in any way. Things have actually gotten worse and more economically unstable in the past 30 years.

I remember when the politicos were heavily pushing NAFTA to drum up public support, they were all but promising total economic paradise if only they could get enough votes so that NAFTA would pass. They were promising all kinds of wonderful things - and even suggested that the problem of illegal border crossing would come to an end (because there'd be no incentive to do so).

So, I guess that's the question I would ask. Did membership in the EU improve Britain's economy and standard of living? Or, was it more like the U.S., where only a few people got very rich, while most of the rest either stagnated or got poorer?

 

[Heyo]

So, I guess that's the question I would ask. Did membership in the EU improve Britain's economy and standard of living? Or, was it more like the U.S., where only a few people got very rich, while most of the rest either stagnated or got poorer?

I let that answer the Brits but for the rest of Europe the EU has been a boon, even for Germany, France and Italy who are net payer.

 

[Estro Felino]

I let that answer the Brits but for the rest of Europe the EU has been a boon, even for Germany, France and Italy who are net payer.

Before euro was invented, surely. So...before Maastricht.

 

[Heyo]

Before euro was invented, surely. So...before Maastricht.

I predicted that. ;-)
My guess is that you not only benefited from the EU but even the Euro. The only ones who really suffered were the Greeks - and they shouldn't have joined in the first place.

 

[Estro Felino]

I predicted that. ;-)
My guess is that you not only benefited from the EU but even the Euro. The only ones who really suffered were the Greeks - and they shouldn't have joined in the first place.

We know who decided to preserve the euro no matter the cost.
We got rid of certain dragons and similar unspeakable creatures...because the EU will face a new era.
A more just, more socialist and more united EU.

 

[England my lionheart]

I for one can't wait for the movie.

In all honesty, you sound like you are talking of Middle Earth or something.

Well the EU is a fantasy so why not.

 

[Estro Felino]

I predicted that. ;-)
My guess is that you not only benefited from the EU but even the Euro. The only ones who really suffered were the Greeks - and they shouldn't have joined in the first place.

As for Greece...of course. With the drachma, they would have never suffered what they suffered because of a merciless Troika.

 

[Stevicus]

I let that answer the Brits but for the rest of Europe the EU has been a boon, even for Germany, France and Italy who are net payer.

Interesting that these countries appear to be better off cooperating than they were back when they were trying to conquer each other.

 

[Estro Felino]

Interesting that these countries appear to be better off cooperating than they were back when they were trying to conquer each other.

Because we have understood that it was the banking and financial élites that used to stir things up among them, to divert the attention from the real enemies (those élites). So the peoples of Europe are united against the common enemy.

 

[stvdv]

Frankly, no one in his right mind would.

We'll see
@stvdvRFcheck

 

[Heyo]

Because we have understood that it was the banking and financial élites that used to stir things up among them, to divert the attention from the real enemies (those élites). So the peoples of Europe are united against the common enemy.

That would be nice. I think it's more likely that the "élites" realized they are better off in a united Europe. And they have become much better at hiding. And learned to pay their "revolution insurance".

 

[Altfish]

Brexit was never going to be easy and as I have and others have said too 10/12 years and we’ll be ok.

The EU or commonwealth when it began was a great idea as a trading block,one day a bunch of contagious bureaucrats set out to over complicate a simple good idea with,well,you guessed it,they added unnecessary bureaucracy and 5 presidents,the EU which is essentially Germany France and Italy now,there are another 24 members but that’s as as far as their part goes although Poland and Hungary don’t give a damn what the EU directs.

The EU atm is impotent,Merkel has gone (thank goodness) Macron is president by name only and Stoltz is a nice guy I guess (not sure)that’s the best I can say for him,within two years there will be a lot of dissent in the EU,uncle Putin has given Ukraine and europe a cold winter,the EU not being a democracy doesn’t have a leader so it’s rudderless in direction.

For me Brexit is a good thing but I’m happy to negotiate to rejoin as long as the short sighted “free movement” is off the table and democracy is.

The people that worry me are not from across the Channel but home-grown idiots. Yes, Johnson, Davies, Rees-Mogg, Farage, etc. The ERG is more dangerous to our democracy than the EU ever was.
When 10/12 years have past you'll be saying "We'll be ok after 20-years" The UK was a basket case before we joined the EU, we are becoming one again now.
The experts were right all along, just admit it.

 

[England my lionheart]

The people that worry me are not from across the Channel but home-grown idiots. Yes, Johnson, Davies, Rees-Mogg, Farage, etc. The ERG is more dangerous to our democracy than the EU ever was.
When 10/12 years have past you'll be saying "We'll be ok after 20-years" The UK was a basket case before we joined the EU, we are becoming one again now.
The experts were right all along, just admit it.

All those people you mention will be forgotten come the general election,there are far more pressing problems for everyone than the EU.

 

[Koldo]

All those people you mention will be forgotten come the general election,there are far more pressing problems for everyone than the EU.

It is intriguing that you haven't addressed the second part of his post...

 

[Altfish]

All those people you mention will be forgotten come the general election,there are far more pressing problems for everyone than the EU.

Yes, but our problems are worse because we are not in the EU

 

[England my lionheart]

It is intriguing that you haven't addressed the second part of his post...

Ok,Altfish is predicting what I’ll be saying in 20 years time but he doesn’t know that as a fact,I can’t be 100% sure we will be ok after 10/12 years either because of world events,but that doesn’t change my best assessment that we will be ok.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes, but our problems are worse because we are not in the EU

How so,is anyone better off in the EU?,We are all facing global recession,Germany and France are the top two in the EU,being in the EU doesn’t make you exempt from it so I’m not seeing how we are worse off.

 

[Altfish]

Ok,Altfish is predicting what I’ll be saying in 20 years time but he doesn’t know that as a fact,I can’t be 100% sure we will be ok after 10/12 years either because of world events,but that doesn’t change my best assessment that we will be ok.

We might be ok BUT we will not be as good as France, Germany and most of the EU. We have voted to impose sanctions on ourselves.

 

[Altfish]

How so,is anyone better off in the EU?,We are all facing global recession,Germany and France are the top two in the EU,being in the EU doesn’t make you exempt from it so I’m not seeing how we are worse off.

I hate to quote 'Experts' rather than Farage or Michael Gove but ...