Lefty loonies and liberals, what the hell happened to us?

[Revoltingest]

SW....case in point.

You may joke with allies to enlist help, but when false claims are made, this casts doubt upon the legitimate ones. It's a very real & important issue. Accuracy & believability are important to advocacy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You may joke with allies to enlist help, but when false claims are made, this casts doubt upon the legitimate ones. It's a very real & important issue. Accuracy & believability are important to advocacy.

I'd like to continue my joking with other feminists. Like you like to joke with other self-described egalitarians about the "abusive" comments of feminists on RF and elsewhere.

And, with all the statistics, quotes, and collective stories, some folks just will continue to deny that problems like the ones I listed exist. I can't convince everybody. I don't need to. I do have people that I connect with who share my experiences and who also as allies will stand with me for equality and against injustice.

BTW, I thought we were at an impasse. What happened to that? Is it still there, or are you wanting to try again at finding common ground when it comes to demographic inequality?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd like to continue my joking with other feminists. Like you like to joke with other self-described egalitarians about the "abusive" comments of feminists on RF and elsewhere.

And, with all the statistics, quotes, and collective stories, some folks just will continue to deny that problems like the ones I listed exist. I can't convince everybody. I don't need to. I do have people that I connect with who share my experiences and who also as allies will stand with me for equality and against injustice.

BTW, I thought we were at an impasse. What happened to that? Is it still there, or are you wanting to try again at finding common ground when it comes to demographic inequality?

The impasse was regarding the use of seeking common ground to further argument & advocacy. New topics will arrive, & this one resonates.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The impasse was regarding the use of seeking common ground to further argument & advocacy. New topics will arrive, & this one resonates.

They all do. Very well. See ya.

 

[gsa]

Yeah, it's abused by people in the same way that critics of scientific theory abuse the word "theory" to dismiss the studies that back their assertions up.

Critics of the sociological academic term "privilege" use it to attack those who they wish to deny. We can see it here in place. It originated in academia and is now a word of mockery against the social scientists who overwhelmingly agree in the existence of the phenomena.

"It's just a 'theory', right?"

"You're attacking me when you say I am 'privileged'."

I see a pattern.

The academic treatment of privilege is quite different from popular treatment in activist circles. There's no empirical disagreement on the existence of racial, gender and sexual disparities. There's substantial debate over causality and remediation. All but the most committed right wing ideologue will admit that discrimination plays a role in the cause of disparities, while others will debate the relative impact of competing factors.

But privilege, in this way, is a social phenomenon that speaks to aggregates, not individuals. It also is relative; significant wealth can wipe out virtually any social disadvantage, and poverty can impede unearned social advantages.

I've also pointed out that race conscious remediation efforts in the past have had unintended consequences including the widening of racial disparities in the criminal justice system. The problem is multifaceted, to be sure, but crack sentencing disparities , and increased law enforcement spending, were supported by black politicians out of special concern for black communities.

I just don't get the sense that privilege is desirable as a topic because of empirical data, but because it is a normative framework for interpretation of that data. And because it can be used to delegitmize alternative views on causality and remediation.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Btw, I notice that you loathe my advising LGBT types, but
you deign to lecture me about my privilege. Ironic, eh?

First of all don't say LGBT types, they are people!

See this is what I'm talking about, it's not ironic. The movement is not about you and you are privileged in that way, so what I said was very appropriate.
You're the one giving lectures on how other people should handle their oppression that you're not affected by, that is ironic!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To proffer quotes like this as discourse regularly heard simply isn't believable. While I believe many claims of injustice towards women, this does not mean that every claim is truthful or accurate. Certainly, just as there are men who will misrepresent reality, so are there women who do the same.

Such quotes are regularly heard though. Either women overreact, they falsify rape at rates that should terrify men, they obviously must have wanted it or else (insert bull**** excuse x), they should have worn different clothes, they weren't resisting enough, it's actually quite scary how much rape apologetic there are in society. It's also harsh and sobering to go from never worrying about or even thinking about rape to being instructed on rape prevention, on being told to be extra cautious while out and leaving drinks unattended, and to not walk around alone. Rape prevention is a big thing that society pushes on women. For example, the Colts player who was recently charged with rape, I know many men (and even a few women) who have decided that she wasn't raped and obviously she just wants attention or she wouldn't have been at his place and put herself into that position. The high school football players from Ohio, it was attempted to sweep their actions under the rug and then later excuse them as "boys will be boys."
Rape and men is a way for men to assert their masculinity by projecting aggressive hostility towards a rapist and the idea of rape, a joke (men being raped a woman or a man being raped by a man), a bit of thinking that women actually want it, but it is mostly an ignored non-issue. When you're a guy, rape isn't something you worry about, it's something you get pissed off about because your female relative was attacked (assuming you believe she was attacked in the first place). It's a reason to express anger, hostility, and even violence under a socially approved circumstance; Sometimes against the perpetrator, sometimes against the victim.

 

[Revoltingest]

Such quotes are regularly heard though. Either women overreact, they falsify rape at rates that should terrify men, they obviously must have wanted it or else (insert bull**** excuse x), they should have worn different clothes, they weren't resisting enough, it's actually quite scary how much rape apologetic there are in society. It's also harsh and sobering to go from never worrying about or even thinking about rape to being instructed on rape prevention, on being told to be extra cautious while out and leaving drinks unattended, and to not walk around alone. Rape prevention is a big thing that society pushes on women. For example, the Colts player who was recently charged with rape, I know many men (and even a few women) who have decided that she wasn't raped and obviously she just wants attention or she wouldn't have been at his place and put herself into that position. The high school football players from Ohio, it was attempted to sweep their actions under the rug and then later excuse them as "boys will be boys."
Rape and men is a way for men to assert their masculinity by projecting aggressive hostility towards a rapist and the idea of rape, a joke (men being raped a woman or a man being raped by a man), a bit of thinking that women actually want it, but it is mostly an ignored non-issue. When you're a guy, rape isn't something you worry about, it's something you get pissed off about because your female relative was attacked (assuming you believe she was attacked in the first place). It's a reason to express anger, hostility, and even violence under a socially approved circumstance; Sometimes against the perpetrator, sometimes against the victim.

I still don't believe that anyone (other than fringe crazies) regularly claims that men don't rape. Is there evidence that this is mainstream thought in anywhere in western society...that it is representative of common thought?
I see attempts to cover up sexual & other assaults at universities too, so I recognize that denials exist. But this does not make some of the outrageous claims I've seen true. And knowing that some are false, I cringe at how much injustice will thrive because some men are falsely accused, & some victims will be wrongly ignored. Honesty & accuracy are powerful tools. Exaggeration & dishonesty uncovered are destructive to more than just the immediate parties.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Such quotes are regularly heard though. Either women overreact, they falsify rape at rates that should terrify men, they obviously must have wanted it or else (insert bull**** excuse x), they should have worn different clothes, they weren't resisting enough, it's actually quite scary how much rape apologetic there are in society. It's also harsh and sobering to go from never worrying about or even thinking about rape to being instructed on rape prevention, on being told to be extra cautious while out and leaving drinks unattended, and to not walk around alone. Rape prevention is a big thing that society pushes on women. For example, the Colts player who was recently charged with rape, I know many men (and even a few women) who have decided that she wasn't raped and obviously she just wants attention or she wouldn't have been at his place and put herself into that position. The high school football players from Ohio, it was attempted to sweep their actions under the rug and then later excuse them as "boys will be boys."
Rape and men is a way for men to assert their masculinity by projecting aggressive hostility towards a rapist and the idea of rape, a joke (men being raped a woman or a man being raped by a man), a bit of thinking that women actually want it, but it is mostly an ignored non-issue. When you're a guy, rape isn't something you worry about, it's something you get pissed off about because your female relative was attacked (assuming you believe she was attacked in the first place). It's a reason to express anger, hostility, and even violence under a socially approved circumstance; Sometimes against the perpetrator, sometimes against the victim.

For a MtF trans person, I highly value and appreciate your perspective, SW. I truly hope that enough people take heart what you offer as more evidence of the differences in how men and women perceive the prevalence of rape apologetics.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. <3

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The academic treatment of privilege is quite different from popular treatment in activist circles. There's no empirical disagreement on the existence of racial, gender and sexual disparities. There's substantial debate over causality and remediation. All but the most committed right wing ideologue will admit that discrimination plays a role in the cause of disparities, while others will debate the relative impact of competing factors.

But privilege, in this way, is a social phenomenon that speaks to aggregates, not individuals. It also is relative; significant wealth can wipe out virtually any social disadvantage, and poverty can impede unearned social advantages.

Quite. Though there is also the factor of intersectionality. Bruce Jenner is extremely wealthy. If Jenner is indeed transitioning to presenting as a female gender, think the social disadvantages are still wiped out? Or is Jenner being treated as a freak show?

I've also pointed out that race conscious remediation efforts in the past have had unintended consequences including the widening of racial disparities in the criminal justice system. The problem is multifaceted, to be sure, but crack sentencing disparities , and increased law enforcement spending, were supported by black politicians out of special concern for black communities.

Partly in response to the insistence that black people need to stop blaming the system, pull their pants up, and deal with their own problems first. I think the problem is much more complex, though I think the generations of poverty stemming from the lack of real estate, connection through genealogy, and the re-districting forcing many black families to re-locate numerous times and quickly has created much of the devastation seen.

In part, rural white America is seeing the same problems arise with the drop of the industrial sectors that once provided job security for many white families now becoming ghost towns that have become the meth-areas of the country.

I just don't get the sense that privilege is desirable as a topic because of empirical data, but because it is a normative framework for interpretation of that data. And because it can be used to delegitmize alternative views on causality and remediation.

I disagree, though I understand your point. Unless there are better alternatives for defining the phenomena, I think the sociological academic term is suitable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But privilege, in this way, is a social phenomenon that speaks to aggregates, not individuals.

There is no way to approach an idea that will accurately describe each and every individual. Being transsexual, I am a part of a very disadvantaged group. But I also have a brain that is well suited for academic work, and the academic world is one of the few that has a better record when it comes to tolerance and acceptance of transsexuals (fashion modeling is another, but that is a world I want to destroy). This puts my employment outlook at a higher level than the average MtF, but it doesn't dismiss that fact many transsexuals cannot find gainful employment, or even employment at all, and many are not even allowed in homeless shelters because they are trans (women's shelters are known for sometimes turning transwomen away at the door).
Even when a doctor decides what medicine to prescribe, the entire population isn't considered but rather what it is that cures most people. Of course some will have side effects, some will not be effected by the medication, and some may be made worse, but the doctor still tends to start with what works for most people. Discussing privilege is no different, as we are not talking about a billionaire black guy, transsexual CEO, or a gay politician, but the general trends in how society at large treats these groups. If you don't want to use the terms privilege, then perhaps a better model to analyze the issue would be based on Marx's idea of class struggle. They (Marx and Engels; Engels more-so than Marx) even wrote of the struggles between men and women, how women are exploited by patriarchy and contemporary housing arrangements, and that women and men should have equal power and equal decision making responsibilities.
Unfortunately, Marxism has been so demonized that most people are utterly and totally oblivious as to what Marx and Engels actually wrote, what their ideas where, and that their philosophies extended much further than an economic arrangement of Communism (also strongly demonized and frequently misunderstood).

 

[gsa]

There is no way to approach an idea that will accurately describe each and every individual. Being transsexual, I am a part of a very disadvantaged group. But I also have a brain that is well suited for academic work, and the academic world is one of the few that has a better record when it comes to tolerance and acceptance of transsexuals (fashion modeling is another, but that is a world I want to destroy). This puts my employment outlook at a higher level than the average MtF, but it doesn't dismiss that fact many transsexuals cannot find gainful employment, or even employment at all, and many are not even allowed in homeless shelters because they are trans (women's shelters are known for sometimes turning transwomen away at the door).
Even when a doctor decides what medicine to prescribe, the entire population isn't considered but rather what it is that cures most people. Of course some will have side effects, some will not be effected by the medication, and some may be made worse, but the doctor still tends to start with what works for most people. Discussing privilege is no different, as we are not talking about a billionaire black guy, transsexual CEO, or a gay politician, but the general trends in how society at large treats these groups. If you don't want to use the terms privilege, then perhaps a better model to analyze the issue would be based on Marx's idea of class struggle. They (Marx and Engels; Engels more-so than Marx) even wrote of the struggles between men and women, how women are exploited by patriarchy and contemporary housing arrangements, and that women and men should have equal power and equal decision making responsibilities.
Unfortunately, Marxism has been so demonized that most people are utterly and totally oblivious as to what Marx and Engels actually wrote, what their ideas where, and that their philosophies extended much further than an economic arrangement of Communism (also strongly demonized and frequently misunderstood).

I strongly prefer Marxist analysis to this incoherent privilege nonsense thatdownplays class.

 

[gsa]

Quite. Though there is also the factor of intersectionality. Bruce Jenner is extremely wealthy. If Jenner is indeed transitioning to presenting as a female gender, think the social disadvantages are still wiped out? Or is Jenner being treated as a freak show?

By and large, yes. I'm talking about social disadvantages, not mistreatment at the hands of the ignorant or prejudiced. Most transwomen are not independently wealthy and have a number of social disadvantages, whether we are talking about employment, incarceration, medical treatment, etc. But note the economic root of so many of these. There are other forms of state sanctioned discrimination as well, but by and large her wealth will correct for it.

Partly in response to the insistence that black people need to stop blaming the system, pull their pants up, and deal with their own problems first. I think the problem is much more complex, though I think the generations of poverty stemming from the lack of real estate, connection through genealogy, and the re-districting forcing many black families to re-locate numerous times and quickly has created much of the devastation seen.

In part, rural white America is seeing the same problems arise with the drop of the industrial sectors that once provided job security for many white families now becoming ghost towns that have become the meth-areas of the country.



I disagree, though I understand your point. Unless there are better alternatives for defining the phenomena, I think the sociological academic term is suitable.

Regarding the crack debate, there were a number of reasons. Undoubtedly that was one of them, but the point is that race conscious remediation led to a disastrous outcome.

I have no problem with a sober academic use of the term. That's not what I see happening in non-academic circles, though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

By and large, yes. I'm talking about social disadvantages, not mistreatment at the hands of the ignorant or prejudiced. Most transwomen are not independently wealthy and have a number of social disadvantages, whether we are talking about employment, incarceration, medical treatment, etc. But note the economic root of so many of these. There are other forms of state sanctioned discrimination as well, but by and large her wealth will correct for it.

I certainly hope so.

Regarding the crack debate, there were a number of reasons. Undoubtedly that was one of them, but the point is that race conscious remediation led to a disastrous outcome.

Indeed. Seems as if the old tired cliched advice of black people pulling their pants up and going to get a job doesn't quite go the way folks think it will go. The system is broken overall.

I have no problem with a sober academic use of the term. That's not what I see happening in non-academic circles, though.

Well, I know a lot of us try our best to keep the term truer to form than the typical tumblr blather.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I still don't believe that anyone (other than fringe crazies) regularly claims that men don't rape. Is there evidence that this is mainstream thought in anywhere in western society...that it is representative of common thought?

There is the prevalence of the idea that a "real man" does not rape.

Quite. Though there is also the factor of intersectionality. Bruce Jenner is extremely wealthy. If Jenner is indeed transitioning to presenting as a female gender, think the social disadvantages are still wiped out? Or is Jenner being treated as a freak show?

Money or not, there will be those who treat her like a freak show. I think the worst I have seen was some jack *** teenaged boy following around a transwoman at a mall, with his phone turned to record, and laughing and making rude remarks like what would be heard at a freak show.
No, I take that back. The worst I've seen was a video of a transwoman being beaten, by multiple women, at a public place (McDonald's? maybe?), for attempting to use the women's restroom.
And of course there are a bunch of transwomen who have been murdered because of prejudice.
Obviously, one's money does not wipe out a society of prejudice.

For a MtF trans person, I highly value and appreciate your perspective, SW. I truly hope that enough people take heart what you offer as more evidence of the differences in how men and women perceive the prevalence of rape apologetics.

Thanks!
But I have to admit, rape apologetics are more of a byproduct of a larger goal, which is demonstrating how transitioning is not a phase, a decision made of a whim, or something that doesn't really happen. The sudden visibility of male privilege is what this is based on, along with asking why would anyone ever seriously consider transitioning unless they are very serious about their female identity? Rape is something that was picked up along the way, especially earlier on. I'm the type who has walked down dark streets, alone. To go from that, with only cautions of being mugged, to being strongly warned against such a thing because of rape really makes it sink in that you aren't just changing your sex, you just aren't assuming a new role, but you are stepping into an entirely new world. Growing up male, there aren't even half of the safety precautions that are regularly given to women. Rape just does not come up for men, not even what to do if you happen to know someone who has sexually assaulted someone, not a mention of what to do to try and help and comfort a rape victim, not even how to assist your family should a member be raped. But when are still considering transition, even before you started hormones, before you have found a therapist, and before you have taken a female name, information about rape begins to become a way of life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I strongly prefer Marxist analysis to this incoherent privilege nonsense thatdownplays class.

Though I too prefer Marxist philosophy, especially to describe such things, most people do not understand Marxism well enough to explain the phenomena of privilege through Marxist philosophy. The term "privilege" may annoy people, but anything related to Marx tends to bring up images of state violence, citizen drones, and an Orwellian Big Brother and other misconceptions, fallacies, and blatant lies. Though it may even be easier to explain privilege on a Marxist level (especially once you add in Neo-Marxist philosophers like Althusser) in theory; in practice the decades of fearmongering have caused such a profound misunderstanding of Marxism that, to a regular person, it is much harder to explain such things because they have been programed to automatically assume anything and everything of Marx is wrong, evil, inferior, and not worth consideration. And it still has that "pointing the finger" that so many accuse discussions based on privilege of having because you are still saying there is a group of those who have undeserved disadvantages, and another group who benefits from those disadvantages, with some working to perpetuate those disadvantages.
Really, in the end, it would be the same concept, the same ideas, just different labels.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There is the prevalence of the idea that a "real man" does not rape.

Truth. ^ ^

Rape, according to many, is only done by monsters. The mythic proportions of how nobody believes they will ever rape, nor are even capable of rape, is due to this cartoonish depiction of a rapist that is typically the stranger jumping out of the bushes at the unsuspecting willowy young attractive conservatively dressed female.

And who does that? Men? Any male friends they know? Anyone? Or is a rapist only defined as the monster?

I thought to extend your perspective on rape apologetics throughout our culture.

Money or not, there will be those who treat her like a freak show. I think the worst I have seen was some jack *** teenaged boy following around a transwoman at a mall, with his phone turned to record, and laughing and making rude remarks like what would be heard at a freak show.
No, I take that back. The worst I've seen was a video of a transwoman being beaten, by multiple women, at a public place (McDonald's? maybe?), for attempting to use the women's restroom.
And of course there are a bunch of transwomen who have been murdered because of prejudice.
Obviously, one's money does not wipe out a society of prejudice.

I saw that video, and I nearly vomited from watching it. It was seriously disturbing. I can only imagine how that would effect you.

Thanks!
But I have to admit, rape apologetics are more of a byproduct of a larger goal, which is demonstrating how transitioning is not a phase, a decision made of a whim, or something that doesn't really happen. The sudden visibility of male privilege is what this is based on, along with asking why would anyone ever seriously consider transitioning unless they are very serious about their female identity? Rape is something that was picked up along the way, especially earlier on. I'm the type who has walked down dark streets, alone. To go from that, with only cautions of being mugged, to being strongly warned against such a thing because of rape really makes it sink in that you aren't just changing your sex, you just aren't assuming a new role, but you are stepping into an entirely new world. Growing up male, there aren't even half of the safety precautions that are regularly given to women. Rape just does not come up for men, not even what to do if you happen to know someone who has sexually assaulted someone, not a mention of what to do to try and help and comfort a rape victim, not even how to assist your family should a member be raped. But when are still considering transition, even before you started hormones, before you have found a therapist, and before you have taken a female name, information about rape begins to become a way of life.

Again, thank you for saying this. Thank you so much.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Rape, according to many, is only done by monsters. The mythic proportions of how nobody believes they will ever rape, nor are even capable of rape, is due to this cartoonish depiction of a rapist that is typically the stranger jumping out of the bushes at the unsuspecting willowy young attractive conservatively dressed female.

I find this to be a symptom of a much larger problem in society. Media, such as the novel In Cold Blood or the movie Der Untergang are often criticized because they humanized cold blooded killers and genocidal maniacs. We don't like to think regular people are capable of horrible deeds, but the cold hard facts are is that Hitler was so human, with such typical humanistic goals, that he wanted to improve the plight of the Germans. He didn't go about it in a way that the majority of people approve of, but bettering our home is something that is very human. In the long run, I think this idea that only monsters can do monstrous deeds is a dire impediment on improving society.

 

[Revoltingest]

I find this to be a symptom of a much larger problem in society. Media, such as the novel In Cold Blood or the movie Der Untergang are often criticized because they humanized cold blooded killers and genocidal maniacs. We don't like to think regular people are capable of horrible deeds, but the cold hard facts are is that Hitler was so human, with such typical humanistic goals, that he wanted to improve the plight of the Germans. He didn't go about it in a way that the majority of people approve of, but bettering our home is something that is very human. In the long run, I think this idea that only monsters can do monstrous deeds is a dire impediment on improving society.

Discovering that a nice guy & competent worker of mine was a psychopathic serial killer really puts a different perspective on things. Fortunately, he's in prison for life now.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is the prevalence of the idea that a "real man" does not rape.

This is news to me. It must be some novel use of the term "real".