Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no curse, there is no retribution.
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Legitimate reasons not to believe in God
- Thread starter Trailblazer
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah never said there was a curse or retribution from Allah?
Where are you getting this from?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..not as in "you can physically detect it", obviously not.
You conclude along with others, from scientific observation, that consciousness is an emergent property of brains.
Many others do not feel that this is the whole story.
It cannot be proved one way or the other .. and religious belief does not depend on a definition or explanation of consciousness.
It is only "imaginary" if you disbelieve in God, and conclude that all historical writings are fraud / delusion.
I'm not surprised that you believe that. The body and mind are not entirely separate .. that is evident.
..but it is not possible to prove that consciousness is completely dependent on physical matter.
It's not just about "words" ..
Scientific observation cannot fully explain non-material concepts.
Lack of physical evidence cannot categorically prove anything about the existence/origin of non-material phenomena.
..same old "show me God", and I will believe you.
Science should not attempt to make conclusions about non-material concept. It can only make assumptions/conclusions about what we can detect and observe.
You are being too vague..
If a person believes that the Qur'an is true, it confirms the truth about God and human messengers that He sent to mankind.
I reject "pagan gods" for example, because they are not of Divine source .. they do not claim to be, nor is there historical evidence as in the Bible and Qur'an.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I do not know.
It is not that different to the question of "why do we all exist"?
The concept of the eternal existence of God offers answers, but does not transcend our mortality. We can only understand what a mortal can understand, and infinite concepts are problematic.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
As they say 'there is no dumb question'.
1. God does not tell us anything. People say on behalf of God. There is no evidence that what they say is true. Existence of God is not proved.
2. All understanding requires an effort. If we do not search, then nothing is going to be proved. Had we not started searching, we would not have survived. Even getting water or food required a search.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Kindly explain the following. Give links if necessary. Do not show what Abdul-Baha or Shoghi said. We are talking about Bahaollah:
Bahaullah Wishes Death on Non-Bahais
Bahaullah wishes death on those who deny him:
Die with anger, Oh he who denies this grace.
Baha’u’llah, Badi`, p. 213
Die with anger O you denying polytheist (denier of Bahaism).
Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 64, p. 276
Non-Bahais Are Not Humans or Lack the Traits of Being Considered as Humans
According to Bahaullah, non-Bahais are not humans and the consequence of mentioning them as ‘human’ is exclusion from all of God’s Graces: From this day, any individual that mentions as human a single person from those who deny me-whether that [denier] has a high or low stature – they will be excluded from all of (God’s) Merciful Graces, let alone trying to prove [those deniers] have dignity or stature.
Baha’u’llah, Badi`, p. 140
Non-Bahais Are Animals
After calling non-Bahais evil non-humans who have no dignity, he goes on to calling them animals that neither deserve the name nor the description of humanness:
Today, according to the decree of the Point of Bayan (meaning the Bab), those individuals who turn away from this Novel Affair (meaning Bahaism) are deprived of the garb of being called and described [as humans?] and are assembled and mentioned as animals in the presence of God.
Baha’u’llah, Badi`, p. 213
Bahaullah says non-Bahais are animals in the presence of God. Are they at least humans in this world? Of course not. In yet another contradicting stance he says:
Know that none of the servants who have had any sense, have never held the belief that those who face towards [Bahaism] (muqbil) and those who turn away from it (mu`riz); or monotheists (meaning Bahais) and polytheists (deniers of Bahaism), have the same status and rank. What you have heard [contrary to this] or have seen in the previous books, was meant in the presence of God.
Baha’u’llah, Majmu`iy-i alwa?-i mubarak-ih, p. 154
Whereas he earlier claimed that those who have turned away from this affair are animals in the presence of God, he later says everyone is equal in the presence of God and if you have heard anything contrary to this it was meant in this world! Here are a few more relevant quotes:
Do not see the polytheists (deniers of Bahaism) but as earthworms and their sounds but the buzzing of flies.
Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 20, p. 183
O group of polytheists (deniers of Bahaism), if you take pride in your name remaining amongst the animals or being mentioned amongst the livestock, then take pride in that for you are worthy of it.
Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 81, p. 452
Oh you donkeys! Whatever God says is the truth and will not become void by the words of the polytheists (deniers of Bahaism).
Baha’u’llah, Badi`, p. 174
Encompassed as I am at this time by the dogs of the earth and the beasts of every land, concealed as I remain in the hidden habitation of Mine inner Being.
Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 4
When the one who turned away from God halted (in accepting me) and fell off the path, in that moment his body left the garb of humanness and appeared and became visible in the skin of animals. Sanctified is He who changes the beings how he likes.
Baha’u’llah, Badi`, p. 110
Bahai Faith – Most intolerant to non Bahais
And since we mortals are physical/material beings, not gods, we only have material evidence that is valid for our use. Do you agree?
This is a cause and effect observation. Science reveals that consciousness is a function of working brains. The question is why you have doubts. You don't seem comfortable examining why you disagree. Thus far you offer no rational disagreement, only that what we observe contradicts what your religious belief is.
That's right, people will believe in all sorts of unfounded beliefs because they adot them from others in their community/ It's like gossip.
Consciousness as a function of working brains is a fact. You are just one of the masses who has been influenced by religious belief with doubt.
The irony is that this kind of believer is skeptical of facts, observation, and science, but will accept absurd ideas like Gods, which not only lack evidence, but are often contrary to evidence.
[quote[It is only "imaginary" if you disbelieve in God, and conclude that all historical writings are fraud / delusion.[/quote]
False. Gods aren't known to exist. Those who believe Gods exist do so due to social influence, not facts and reason. Notice you offer no rebuttal.
False. The mind is a product of brains, which are parts of bodies. You express religious ideas that are not valid or credible in science, so they are dismissed. It's fine to have religious beliefs, but if you get scienc e wrong then you are just wrong.
There is no alternative explanation, so irrelevant.
Use more words to explain why. You have plenty of beliefs, but lack explanations for your beliefs.
Because they are not related to reality. Science deals with what is real. There is nothing known to isnt real. To say immaterial is the same as imaginary. Science won't study God or the Tooth Fairy, both non-material concepts. There is a biological and social reason why people believe in such concepts.
Lack of evidence is lack of evidence.
Evidence is THE basis for valid beliefs. If you hold a belief that lacks evidence then it is irrational.
Do you believe is any of the many Hindu gods? If not, why not?
Non-material concepts are irrelevant to science, so you have nothing to worry about.
However science does examine why believers, like you, believes in irrational concepts, of which non-material concepts is one category. Remember, non-material concepts are synonymous with imaginary.
And you have been going on and on about how flawed humans are, how science is limited, how observations aren't certain, yet you don't apply your critique to these believers? That is a logical fallacy called special pleading.
There is actual studies about how flawed religious belief is, and why believers will believe weird things. Here is a book by Michael Shermer who is a psychologist, and he outlines reasons and motivations of irrational belief:
Why People Believe Weird Things » Michael Shermer
What test in reality demonstrates the Bible and Quran ARE divine sources? And then show how your test reveals that pagan gods are not a divine source. Your religious dogma is irrelevant, we need to see evidence and an objective test that your assertions here are justified and objective, not personal. Your belief as a Muslim has no authority over what pagans believe.
The only historical evidence of the Bible and Quran is that they cite some real people and some real places. But many works of fiction do this, so we need evidence that the supernatural bits are true. You have failed to present any such evidence. We don't care that you believe, or that millions believe. We need credible, verifiable evidence that your claims and beliefs are true in relity.
I'm asking knowing that you can't offer any evidence, but you need to learn that making irrational claims is not sufficient in debate.
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muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I really don't see why you keep repeating the obvious.
It can't tell us anything definite about whether it is possible outside of this observation.
What you really mean is that the existence of God cannot be proved by empirical evidence.
Some people believe that the Bible and/or Qur'an are true .. others don't.
Observation strongly suggests this, but it cannot be categorically proved one way or the other.
You ignore this fact, and insist your view is necessarily true.
You can take that stance .. nobody can show or prove an alternative so it must be true.
Science deals with what we can observe.
Do you?
No .. you don't believe in things that can't be observed.
..and I don't believe in gods that have no evidence of Divinity.
irrational: not logical or reasonable
It is unreasonable for you, to believe in miracles and God .. it is not unreasonable for believers.
Evidence?
No. If you cannot believe in God and prefer to think that the universe has no intelligent source, then that is your belief.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The NT builds it case for the need for Jesus to come and be the redeemer and savior. Without a literal fall, Jesus is not needed. But Baha'is believe, or they should believe, that the story of Adam and Eve can't be taken literally...
Concerning the story of Adam and Eve, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, in 'Some Answered Questions', explains that it cannot be taken literally. You are asked to refer to pages 122-126 of this book for the symbolic meaning of the story.
Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 500
The problem is that the story continues. When does it become literal and stops being symbolic? Is the story of Noah and Abraham, and later, the story of Joseph all symbolic? None of those things really happened? It's all part of Genesis. Why accept part of it as historically true and not the part about Adam and Eve? Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 500
I think there is a way... Calling it myth, legend and traditions. But Baha'is can't really go that far, since they believe it is God's word and must be true. So, they make the stories "symbolically" true and only made a literal interpretation not true. But then they do it with the NT also with the resurrection of Jesus.
As to the resurrection of the body of Christ three days subsequent to His departure: This signifies the divine teachings and spiritual religion of His Holiness Christ, which constitute His spiritual body, which is living and perpetual forevermore...
The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104
By the "three days' of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they become firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body - which signifies the divine word - arose.
The Bible and the NT are filled with things that lots of people don't believe literally happened. Because of that, some of them write the Bible and NT off as just religious myth. Baha'is have found a way to accept them as being true, while at the same time not being true, at least not literally true. It works for them, but what does it do for Christians? Can Christians live with and believe in a Bible and NT that is not literally true?The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104
By the "three days' of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they become firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body - which signifies the divine word - arose.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
These are not official Baha'i sources. They are mistranslated Baha'i Writings with the intent to deceive stupid people who would believe they are correct. It is despicable to post them here as if Baha'u'llah ever wrote those things. He did not. They were taken from a anti-Baha'i website whose express purpose is to discredit the Baha'i Faith. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
Need for love and kindness toward
"Let all your striving be for this, to become the source of life and immortality, and peace and comfort and joy, to every human soul, whether one known to you or a stranger, one opposed to you or on your side. Look ye not upon the purity or impurity of his nature: look ye upon the all-embracing mercy of the Lord, the light of Whose grace hath embosomed the whole earth and all who dwell thereon, and in the plenitude of Whose bounty are immersed both the wise and the ignorant. Stranger and friend alike are seated at the table of His favour. Even as the believer, the denier who turneth away from God doth at the same time cup his hands and drink from the sea of His bestowals.
"It behoveth the loved ones of the Lord to be the signs and tokens of His universal mercy and the embodiments of His own excelling grace. Like the sun, let them cast their rays upon garden and rubbish heap alike, and even as clouds in spring, let them shed down their rain upon flower and thorn. Let them seek but love and faithfulness, let them not follow the ways of unkindness, let their talk be confined to the secrets of friendship and of peace. Such are the attributes of the righteous, such is the distinguishing mark of those who serve His Threshold.
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 256-57)
God nurtures each person, no matter to what religion he belongs, and including atheists or materialists
"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."
('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)
Non-believers - Bahai9
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
No one has evidence for the supernatural. To think that there could possibly be evidence for the supernatural is irrational, F1fan.
Maybe it is you who needs to learn that making irrational claims is not sufficient in debate.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Today on planet eArths God. The highest greatest natural law God is not present with us.
We are suffering in life and mind thoughts because the past origin highest greatest earth God is gone from our life.
Evolution cooling in space out of stars and dust mass gases was putting it back.
Mind confession. Men of temple science had sacrificed its body..
Gone.
As yet it's not returned bodily.
So don't believe God is being holy for us as it's not.
Says human using memories aware.
Why you should not false preach today that God is holy...as yet it isn't life still being hurt early age dying sacrificed.
Brother told star mass returns human life by evolution gas mass replaced.
Water then will stop flooding stasis returned.
We are suffering in life and mind thoughts because the past origin highest greatest earth God is gone from our life.
Evolution cooling in space out of stars and dust mass gases was putting it back.
Mind confession. Men of temple science had sacrificed its body..
Gone.
As yet it's not returned bodily.
So don't believe God is being holy for us as it's not.
Says human using memories aware.
Why you should not false preach today that God is holy...as yet it isn't life still being hurt early age dying sacrificed.
Brother told star mass returns human life by evolution gas mass replaced.
Water then will stop flooding stasis returned.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Science says my human truth is by humans physical proof.
Only science is proof
So you ask science do you spirit...non presence term any theories?
Yes. In non mass presence a gas is a spirit in science of old term. And gases produce phenomena in clouds images of land living or even nuclear orbital images. Mass removed term.
What science does removes mass.
Doesn't it?
Yes.
Science states AI my machine use causes involves holographic causes?
Yes...phenomena.
In heavens same incident emerged phenomena witnessed when humans life mind body was sun gas burning falling cooling attacked ...
as earths God saviour body sacrificed.
Returned remassed reborn ice saviour melts.
Living microbes in water by human caused science burns it back from living to carbon. Living water then cools it...images of deceased humans seen.
As living humans the theist of science caused the effect. As designer is man human not the designs he looks at.
Attacked brain prickled hurt I saw it. Sight changed physical....mind changed then phenomena witnessed. Is not constant life in nature's laws.
Is it scientist. No says Satanists men. Science.
Truth...life is human natural. So you know law is real first origin human men changed it. Shouldn't.
Machine sun thesis causes are not natural. Man human conjured it.
Known. Even occult science knows it's real as men studied it using machines themselves.
Or do you pretend science doesn't own an occult department?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Theory today from carbon I get electricity.
There's lots of carbon in earths heavens.
Phenomena attacks witnessed increases dramatically.
Theist says human life...human is a whole healthy human now only present came from carbon.
I want carbon mass to be why humans are electricity.
Science the only human liar gets it from coal or dusts.
Neither body type above body type itself is a human.
So he tried to burn us all to death to be his resource theory.
His science brother said he would.
He says you're wrong scientist as his cult group individuals talking to himself only.
In life conscious human natural human is first.
Says to any self direct answers...you personally are wrong. Greedy rich human deflects the answer by behaviour.
Consciousness father's. First man who told his son don't be a satanist scientist...he wouldn't listen.
There's lots of carbon in earths heavens.
Phenomena attacks witnessed increases dramatically.
Theist says human life...human is a whole healthy human now only present came from carbon.
I want carbon mass to be why humans are electricity.
Science the only human liar gets it from coal or dusts.
Neither body type above body type itself is a human.
So he tried to burn us all to death to be his resource theory.
His science brother said he would.
He says you're wrong scientist as his cult group individuals talking to himself only.
In life conscious human natural human is first.
Says to any self direct answers...you personally are wrong. Greedy rich human deflects the answer by behaviour.
Consciousness father's. First man who told his son don't be a satanist scientist...he wouldn't listen.
That is a fatal blow to theists. Thanks for the honesty.
I agree, so how do you explain believers deciding a supernatural exists and is real?
I'm not claiming a supernatural is real, believers are. Me asking them for evidence is quite rational and part of debate.Maybe it is you who needs to learn that making irrational claims is not sufficient in debate.
You should direct your criticism to believers who think supernatual ideas are true, and for them making claims in open debate that they can't defend by providing evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Evidence is not what makes anything real, evidence is just what some people need in order to believe some things are real.
What exists in reality exists in reality, whether there is evidence for it or not.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Our human father life lived heavenly recorded status AI now.
Voice image.
Said nature garden first life. Men women came out of the eternal. Women pulled back in still eternal most men returned. A group of men were forced to stay with garden.
Origin god man higher bio body first scientist time shifting pyramid machine
Carbonised all life on earth.
Stars hit earth as universe changed by earth science of men.
Cooled earth.
Nature spirit re emerged dinosaurs followed.
Star hits obliterated first dino.
New dinosaur life emerged.
Star obliterated life. Dino snap frozen. Unfreeze flood all bodies churned into large bone pile evidence.
Nature re grew where roots still under ground had survived.
Rationally as dinosaurs only snap froze by reaction. They should still own life on earth.
Reason new animal humans emerged was via density pressure changes cooling mass above.
Isn't evolution.
If a theist says I want you to explain why you think eternal as origin still exists. And why bio life came out of that body only?
...a sun sits in space.
...earth a rock sits in space.
...a sun bursts sends out attack into other bodies colder mass.
From out of space from a burning self consuming body...it's type was a sun.
We aren't it's highest law...space...space travel...coldest mass of a sun.
Exact reason why.
We didn't come from evil.
Then a human says. When I the man as a God remove solid density...not even spirit...gas...I see waters living single life.
Water as mass is mass water as water only owns single celled life in water as mass.
Reason why.
We had come direct from the eternal spirit pre body owned.
Reasoned. If a Monkeys baby is its healthiest life type a monkey.
Humans own more cell mass.
A sick monkey owns less cells.
You replace cells it becomes healthy.
If you give it more cells than it parents a human god says it's human.
Yet sex gives the monkey a monkey baby. Same monkey today as it was.
If the healthy monkey was our parent it's sex would only produce human babies now.
As a monkeys body is owner as a less functional produced body of cells. It is why we came from eternal spirit pre owned.
I can theory why.
I can use the term I theory without it being connected to science and man's machine.
It's the scientist human who wants it as the only human who says you can't have it...it doesn't exist for his life now.
As we are born humans as humans by human sex.
Voice image.
Said nature garden first life. Men women came out of the eternal. Women pulled back in still eternal most men returned. A group of men were forced to stay with garden.
Origin god man higher bio body first scientist time shifting pyramid machine
Carbonised all life on earth.
Stars hit earth as universe changed by earth science of men.
Cooled earth.
Nature spirit re emerged dinosaurs followed.
Star hits obliterated first dino.
New dinosaur life emerged.
Star obliterated life. Dino snap frozen. Unfreeze flood all bodies churned into large bone pile evidence.
Nature re grew where roots still under ground had survived.
Rationally as dinosaurs only snap froze by reaction. They should still own life on earth.
Reason new animal humans emerged was via density pressure changes cooling mass above.
Isn't evolution.
If a theist says I want you to explain why you think eternal as origin still exists. And why bio life came out of that body only?
...a sun sits in space.
...earth a rock sits in space.
...a sun bursts sends out attack into other bodies colder mass.
From out of space from a burning self consuming body...it's type was a sun.
We aren't it's highest law...space...space travel...coldest mass of a sun.
Exact reason why.
We didn't come from evil.
Then a human says. When I the man as a God remove solid density...not even spirit...gas...I see waters living single life.
Water as mass is mass water as water only owns single celled life in water as mass.
Reason why.
We had come direct from the eternal spirit pre body owned.
Reasoned. If a Monkeys baby is its healthiest life type a monkey.
Humans own more cell mass.
A sick monkey owns less cells.
You replace cells it becomes healthy.
If you give it more cells than it parents a human god says it's human.
Yet sex gives the monkey a monkey baby. Same monkey today as it was.
If the healthy monkey was our parent it's sex would only produce human babies now.
As a monkeys body is owner as a less functional produced body of cells. It is why we came from eternal spirit pre owned.
I can theory why.
I can use the term I theory without it being connected to science and man's machine.
It's the scientist human who wants it as the only human who says you can't have it...it doesn't exist for his life now.
As we are born humans as humans by human sex.
Well possibilities are irrelevant. There are endless possibilities that imagination can conjure, and that isn't fact or data, it's just imagination.
You keep trying to go off on irrelevant tangents, like possibilities. I already deflated that balloon, so you don't need to keep pushing it. Facts and data matter, imagined possibilities don''t. You don't want to follow the facts, you want your religious assumptions accepted.
There is zero evidence for any of the some 4000 gods in human history. A supernatural is contrary to what we observe in the universe, so gods are rejected. It's fine if you want to believe, but if you are going to come into an oen debate forum and claim or suggest a God exists then you had better have some evidence.
The believers have no factual reason to decide the Bible or Quran are true. As I noted people will believe in all sorts of irrational and weird things.
It is a fact that consciousness only exists in working brains. It's a fact that consciousness exists no where other than working brains. How can you come up with a different understanding? You have no facts, only what you were told by your religion. Can you admit your religion might be wrong? Is it possible?
You are really struggling with the fact that consciousness only exists in working brains.
And we observe consciousness only existing in working brains.
False. I didn't see OJ kill his ex-wife and Goldman, but the evidence I have learned about convinces me he is guilty of double murder. I do believe he killed them.
Do you follow me here? I am presented with evidence that implicates OJ as the murderer, and it has convinced me.
I asked you to provide the test for divinity.
You are an examle of a believer who can't provide a rational and factual basis for your beliefs, and this is why being a believer is not a category that is known to being rational. Believers don't make their judgments based on facts or evidence. Theists are even admitting there is no evidence for a supernatural, so how is it believers end up deciding a supernatural is real?
So you are sying i have a belief and am wrong? So this must apply to you? You have a belief so you could be wrong as well, yes?
The thing is an intelligent designer is a religious idea, so irrelevant to explaining the universe. That means I have no belief about it. It's simply a religious idea that isn't relevant.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
And then there are those who possess the ability to perceive what others are unable to perceive, hear, or feel. I'm sure it would scare the living daylights out of most people if they could see, hear, and feel what I see, hear, and feel on a daily basis and have seen, heard, and felt since I was a child. Despite what was said in prior posts, I know that there is plenty of evidence for the spirits all around us.