Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[TLK Valentine]

Sometimes I feel the same way about God and ending my life, although I don't have any loved ones left, since they have all died and left me alone, which is the primary reason I don't want to be here anymore.

Just a suggestion, but why not use the time you have here to look for some new ones to love?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why not enjoy life till the last breath, recall nice memories till you can...? Isn't it a gift from God/Nature?

Yes .. that is what I should be doing.
It feels like a dark force is gripping me, holding me back.

It seems that often, we are our own worst enemies.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just a suggestion, but why not use the time you have here to look for some new ones to love?

I sometimes feel that that is the way forward, but when my physical and mental health spiral down, I don't feel able to even look after myself. It sure is a conundrum.

 

[F1fan]

I do not expect to see God, or expect to see the moon split in two etc.

What is notable about believers is the broad range of things they believe true about their texts. Some are realistic in their interpretations while others are more literal. The lack of consistency is interesting since religions are supposed to be the "truth".

If there was no Bible or Qur'an, there would be no Christians or Muslims.

Both which evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolving from the Caanaite polytheistic system. Even the Old Testament has bits that refer to multiple gods. Religions evolve. There are even many dead religions. Some dead realigions, like Druids, went away due to the power of Kings who used Christianity as a Divine authority, which usually meant they could kill anyone they wanted because God demands it. Muslim extremists use the same justification to kill infidels.

We can all be wrong.

Which is why developing reasoning skill is important. To Christians you Muslims are wrong. To you Hindus are wrong because you insist their gods are not from a Divine source, whatever that means, you never answered my question about that, so I take it you were not telling the truth about Divine source?

When we assess right and wrong ideas we ask others to demonstrate their claims are true or reasonable. If you claim your God is real due to a Divine source you had better think ahead when others ask for evidence and an explanation. You failed, so the default in logic and debate is when a person makes a claim and fails to demonstrate it is true, it is rejected as false.

It's only irrelevant if the teachings of Jesus and/or Muhammad are not true.

There's that, and what exactly is true about any of these religions when believers themselves disagree with each other? Islam has two major divisions, and these two often fight. Christianity is a catastrophe with some 42,000 sects. Some prostestants don't even recognize Catholics as Christian, can you believe that? So even believers are confused about the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad, and can we say they are even true? What does it mean to say their teachings are true? There are Mormons who believe their tradition is true. There are Bahai who believe their Messengers are divine. There are the Urantia folks. All these texts and teachings are true if believers say so, yes? I suspect you will answer NO as a Muslim, but I am asking you as a thinker. Does your belief in your religion any more objedctively true than other religions? You haven't offered any evidence. And your belief is irrelevant because you dismiss the believers of other religions.

My mind tells me that God exists.

And why is it doing that? Can you accept that your mind includes the subconscious, and that the subconscious can influence belief? Can you accept that you were influenced to believe what you do by your social experience and you can't set this influence aside?

Our minds can habituate and be sloppy in how it forms thoughts, and builds illusiuons that protect us from anxiety and fears. These remain hidden in the subconscious and without more mental disciline this shadow self dominates how we think. Religious believers will know WHAT they believe, but not understand WHY they believe it. They just do, and it feels good.

For you, it is unreasonable to believe anything without empirical evidence .

By definition it IS unreasonable to make judgments without some evidence.

Does your statement here admit that you have beliefs NOT based on evidence? If so, can you understand how weak those judgments are, and how arbitrary they can be? If you grew up in the state of Utah, USA you would likley be a Mormon because that is what many people are, and what they spread as religious truth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello Trailblazer.

Just because some of the Bible characters were real people who existed, that does not mean all of the Bible characters were real people who existed. That is not logical.

We’re talking about a lineage. Of course it’s logical. (I mentioned King David because he was in that lineage of Jesus.) It would be illogical, dishonest in fact, to put fake people in a lineage of someone.
If I researched your family tree & I told you, “Oh, by the way, your GGGGGGGGgrandfather didn’t exist, he was allegorical / imaginary.” Would you believe that?
The Bible writer of Jesus’ genealogy, Luke, stated that he had “traced all things from the start with accuracy.” (Remember, he had access to historical information that today we do not have… it’s been lost. Like the Library of Alexandria, the one at Pergamon, the Temple of Jerusalem, etc.)

Science shows that humans have existed for about 200,000 years.

“Shows”? Rather, mainstream science interprets evidence in a way that supports that conclusion.
Not all scientists accept such an understanding.

What do you think happened to humans before Adam and Eve?

There were no humans before Adam & Eve. Genesis 3:20…Eve was “to become the Mother of everyone living.”

If they had not died the world would have become overpopulated a long time ago.

Really?
With God’s blessing, “the desert will blossom as the saffron (Isaiah 35:1-2),” and there will be “abundance of grain in the earth on top of the mountains; Its fruit will wave like the cedars of Lebanon / on top of the mountains there will be abundant grain. (Psalm 72:16)”

Either that or you have misinterpreted that Bible verse.
Do you know that all readers of the Bible, including Christians, interpret it differently?

Logically speaking, that means that there has to be more than one interpretation.

Again, those verses are subject to interpretation.

Matthew 19:4-6? In what other way can you interpret it, where it still makes sense?

When was the beginning?

The beginning of humans.

How did God created man and woman?

From elements of the earth… ?

I believe that happened through the process of evolution which God set in motion

Where do you base these beliefs on? Evolution has never been seen to form any higher classification of organisms than species…and that was first observed in 2017! No genus taxon, no family taxon
We should expect all organisms to have the same genes within the same DNA structure, since all life forms have the same Creator…. It does not mean they are biologically related.

and I believe that there were men and women long before Adam and Eve allegedly existed.

EDIT:
Oops! I accidentally posted!
From what I’ve studied, this is my understanding.
I will continue and finish my reply to all of these quotes, later.
Have a good day!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sometimes I feel the same way about God and ending my life, although I don't have any loved ones left, since they have all died and left me alone, which is the primary reason I don't want to be here anymore.

Suicide will end any physical suffering but it will not necessarily end spiritual suffering since the spirit/soul lives on.

I would probably not still be here if I did not believe in God, as evidenced by a police report made out in June 2014.
My late husband called the police that night since I was threatening suicide, and when the police arrived and talked to me I told them I will not kill myself because I believe in God. Then I handed over the bottle of pills I was grasping in my hand. I will never forget that awful night.

I am sorry to hear you are suffering physically. I don't know what physical suffering is like since I never suffered physically, only emotionally, but suffering is suffering.

I’m so sorry that you experience such turmoil, and that you’ve lost all your loved ones!
I wish I could help you somehow.

I’ve prayed to Jehovah to help you. You seem such a kind person.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There's that, and what exactly is true about any of these religions when believers themselves disagree with each other? Islam has two major divisions, and these two often fight. Christianity is a catastrophe with some 42,000 sects..

..and all this shows that Jesus and Muhammad do not tell the truth?
Not to me. I expect to see corruption in human affairs.
Religious belief does not turn people into faultless angels.
..and hypocrisy also exists, where people pay lip-service only.

What does it mean to say their teachings are true?

It means that they don't lie about the existence of God and that they were indeed sent by Him to teach and warn.

And your belief is irrelevant because you dismiss the believers of other religions..

I don't actually. I acknowledge that they believe in God, Jesus and/or Muhammad, but have a different tradition or understanding.

Can you accept that you were influenced to believe what you do by your social experience and you can't set this influence aside?

Yes, of course. We are all a product of our experiences.
I can't set it aside, because I have no reason to believe that the Qur'an is a forgery.
If you can prove to me, beyond reasonable doubt that it is, I will discard my belief.
I'm the same as you .. human .. and I evaluate and make conclusions, based on my experience and many other considerations.

Religious believers will know WHAT they believe, but not understand WHY they believe it..

I know why I believe it.
..because, unlike you, I don't consider the Qur'an is a product of men. It confirms the Bible, and explains the trinity, which never made much sense to me as a Christian.
The "mystery" became very clear.

By definition it IS unreasonable to make judgments without some evidence.

Of course it is.
If the Bible and Qur'an did not exist, you could then claim there is no evidence.
It is just that you don't believe it .. you think it is fraud or delusion.

If you grew up in the state of Utah, USA you would likley be a Mormon because that is what many people are, and what they spread as religious truth.

I agree .. but I might have moved to another state and discovered Islam.
Who knows?

 

[Trailblazer]

And what does not exist in reality does not exist in reality.

That's rather obvious..... And so? Do you have a point to make?

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you considered that God is perhaps waiting for you to recognize that He IS helping you?

There is nothing to wait for.... I have already recognized that.
I would not still be here if God was not helping me.
I get help every day but I am waiting for a 'certain kind' of help to arrive.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. What is the official translation of the referenced quotes that this person has given. Could you give me a link to that OR these lines have been abrogated (by Abdul Baha, Shoghi or your House of Justice)?

How could I possibly know where those quotes you cited originated? Conveniently, there are no links to them in the website article, so there is no way to know if those sources even exist.

I agree to the underlined portion. But Bahaollah, even after being a manifestation of Allah (as you believe) has not given even an iota of evidence about existence of Allah or his being a manifestation of that entity despite writing 17,000 already translated 'tablets' and many more still untranslated, and a lot of books? All talk, no proof.

Baha'u'llah and all the other Manifestations of God are evidence of God since they manifest God on earth, but evidence is not the same as proof. There is and never will be any proof that God exists, not unless God offers that proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus did not promise anything in this life. Promises of all manifestations are valid only for after-life. So, you might as well stop hoping.

I am not hoping for anything except some help getting through this life. I know that the Promises of Jesus and Baha'u'llah will only be fulfilled in the afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are there things that do not exist?

Non-existent things do not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

And @muhammad_isa

Why not enjoy life till the last breath, recall nice memories till you can...? Isn't it a gift from God/Nature?

There is no reason NOT to do that. I never said that there was.
Just because we 'look forward' to an afterlife that doesn't mean we cannot enjoy 'what there is' to enjoy in this life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just a suggestion, but why not use the time you have here to look for some new ones to love?

That's exactly what I have been doing with some of my time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hello Trailblazer.

We’re talking about a lineage. Of course it’s logical. (I mentioned King David because he was in that lineage of Jesus.) It would be illogical, dishonest in fact, to put fake people in a lineage of someone.
If I researched your family tree & I told you, “Oh, by the way, your GGGGGGGGgrandfather didn’t exist, he was allegorical / imaginary.” Would you believe that?
The Bible writer of Jesus’ genealogy, Luke, stated that he had “traced all things from the start with accuracy.” (Remember, he had access to historical information that today we do not have… it’s been lost. Like the Library of Alexandria, the one at Pergamon, the Temple of Jerusalem, etc.)

So Luke traced the lineage of all of the Bible characters and verified that they were real people who existed?

“Shows”? Rather, mainstream science interprets evidence in a way that supports that conclusion.
Not all scientists accept such an understanding.

Who were the first 2 human beings?

The oldest known remains of anatomically modern humans are the Omo I and Omo II skulls. These were found in 1967 in Omo National Park in south-western Ethiopia. The skulls have been dated to 195,000 years ago, highlighting how humans have evolved relatively recently.Jul 21, 2021
Evolution of modern humans - YourGenome

Where did human beings originally come from?

Humans first evolved in Africa, and much of human evolution occurred on that continent. The fossils of early humans who lived between 6 and 2 million years ago come entirely from Africa. Most scientists currently recognize some 15 to 20 different species of early humans.Jul 11, 2022
Introduction to Human Evolution - Smithsonian's Human Origins

Unfortunately, the scientific evidence shows that Adam and Eve could not have existed, at least in the way they’re portrayed in the Bible. Genetic data show no evidence of any human bottleneck as small as two people: there are simply too many different kinds of genes around for that to be true. There may have been a couple of “bottlenecks” (reduced population sizes) in the history of our species, but the smallest one not involving recent colonization is a bottleneck of roughly 10,000-15,000 individuals that occurred between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago. That’s as small a population as our ancestors had, and—note—it’s not two individuals.

Further, looking at different genes, we find that they trace back to different times in our past. Mitochondrial DNA points to the genes in that organelle tracing back to a single female ancestor who lived about 140,000 years ago, but that genes on the Y chromosome trace back to one male who lived about 60,000-90,000 years ago. Further, the bulk of genes in the nucleus all trace back to different times—as far back as two million years. This shows not only that any “Adam” and “Eve” (in the sense of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA alone) must have lived thousands of years apart, but also that there simply could not have been two individuals who provided the entire genetic ancestry of modern humans. Each of our genes “coalesces” back to a different ancestor, showing that, as expected, our genetic legacy comes from many different individuals. It does not go back to just two individuals, regardless of when they lived.

These are the scientific facts. And, unlike the case of Jesus’s virgin birth and resurrection, we can dismiss a physical Adam and Eve with near scientific certainty.
Adam and Eve: the ultimate standoff between science and faith (and a contest!)

There were no humans before Adam & Eve. Genesis 3:20…Eve was “to become the Mother of everyone living.”

That is only a belief, and it is not supported by any scientific evidence, as noted above. I don't understand how people can believe what is contradicted by science.

Really?
With God’s blessing, “the desert will blossom as the saffron (Isaiah 35:1-2),” and there will be “abundance of grain in the earth on top of the mountains; Its fruit will wave like the cedars of Lebanon / on top of the mountains there will be abundant grain. (Psalm 72:16)”

Even ample food does not address the problem of overpopulation as there is only so much room for people to live on earth. If nobody ever died, eventually the room would run out, and it would not take that long.

Matthew 19:4-6? In what other way can you interpret it, where it still makes sense?

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

To me, "made them" means that God made them come into existence by setting the process of evolution into motion. At a certain point during that process man became man, more than an animal. That was when God gave man a soul, since it is the soul that differentiates man from the other animals.

Where do you base these beliefs on? Evolution has never been seen to form any higher classification of organisms than species…and that was first observed in 2017! No genus taxon, no family taxon
We should expect all organisms to have the same genes within the same DNA structure, since all life forms have the same Creator…. It does not mean they are biologically related.

I base my beliefs on science. I am not well-versed in evolution theory, but I trust the scientists who are.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah and all the other Manifestations of God are evidence of God since they manifest God on earth, but evidence is not the same as proof.
There is and never will be any proof that God exists, not unless God offers that proof.

No proof no belief. I am not waiting.

 

[Trailblazer]

No proof no belief. I am not waiting.

You will get your proof when you die. I hope that is not too soon, but given your age it is not that far away.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You will get your proof when you die. I hope that is not too soon, but given your age it is not that far away.

Don't try to frighten me with that. Paper promises, paper threats. Of course, the moment may not be far. I am what constitutes the universe. After I die, what constitutes me will go into millions/billions of living and non-living entities. What constituted me was (you can say) omni-present, what constitutes me will again be omni-present after I die. Forms are but illusions.

"vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya, navāni gṛhṇāti naro ’parāṇi;
tathā śarīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇāny, anyāni saṁyāti navāni dehī." BG 2.22

Like a person who throws away old clothes and accepts other new clothes, in the same way when the body grows old, leaving the old form, one accepts other new forms.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You will get your proof when you die. I hope that is not too soon, but given your age it is not that far away.

You should know better than to play the game of Kiss Hank's Donkey.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't try to frighten me with that.

That is the very opposite of a threat. It was meant to be a reassurance.