Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[F1fan]

One reason not to believe in God, is if one lacks self control and cannot follow the moral codes of religion, then a non belief in God can offer an excuse to hide the fact the ego lacks self control.

Give us examples of non-believers not following the moral codes of religion. Do you follow the moral codes of Islam? If not, then you are an example of what you state above, except you believe in the wrong version of God, oddly, the God of Abraham. Explain.

It is hard to believe in God and also become a pervert, for example, since this will cause constant inner conflict.

Catholic priests. Jimmy Swaggart. Hagee. And Trump, as if anyone believed he was ever a Christian.

To end the conflict and be freer to choose the low road, that path can be made easier to walk by getting on the God denial bandwagon. There you will get group support that will tell you this path is good for you and is the new normal.

If theists showed themselves to be abnormally moral, decent, and at peace then you would have a valid claim. But we see many theists act contrary to the moral ideals of most every religion. And there is an inconsistency of moral codes from religion to religion, so that suggests there is no actual God behind any of it.

When I was a teen, I wanted to participate in the things of behavior of youth that adults did not condone. Belief in God became an obstacle since it defined a different path, than the ways of the streets and back alleys. To run in those social circles, easier, I needed to repress parts of my religion that would keep me in conflict, while retaining things that made good social sense, like love your neighbor; honor among the street people. My compromise was selective denial; one leg in each world.

Teens tyically act out rebelliously, as a way to test their own moral sense, and authority. This is all quite normal in terms of human development.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Jesus teaches us that lying your life down for a friend is one of the highest acts of love.
Or something like that. It's been a very long time since I've read that. But yes, Jesus teaches submission and subservience, but love is indeed a very strong element of his teachings, like repetitively instructing his followers to love and take care of the poor, reminding his followers that how they treat the least among them is how they treat him.
And, indeed, some Christian leaders and statesmen have been moved by their faith to show love, care and mercy towards their subjects (building orphanages, promoting literacy, and taking care of the poor and infirm has bestowed the title of the Great to at least a couple of statesmen who weren't conquers but fierce defenders of their homelands).

Well if jihad is laying down your life, it's a funny definition of love.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I can agree with that but very few believers actually believe that

It's not that hard for ones imagination to spill out into the real world.

It's how those rose colored glasses come about.

 

[CG Didymus]

Unless of course its reasonable to point out that God is the product of people's imagination.

God never says and never does, and has no description appropriate to a real entity, and that the world behaves just as if God / gods were simply an idea.

To the non-believer, it is not that so much we have legitimate reasons not to believe, but that we have insufficient reason to propose the question in the first place.

The legitimate reason to not believe in gods is that there is insufficient evidence to believe.

Baha'is say that God is unseen and unknowable except for what the manifestations of God tell us about him or it. But it's mainly what their prophet tells us about this God. I still go with that it doesn't matter if this God is real or not... it is that this God is believed to be or imagined to be real that becomes important. And because the Baha'is, Christians or people in other religions that have a different concept of the gods, believe their gods to be real, they follow the rules of their religion and listen to their leaders. And that what becomes important to them. But could it all be in their imaginations? Since there's so many variations of who or what god is, I'd have to say that at least for some of them, and maybe all of them, they were just gods that those people made up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Would it be possible to say: there is too much good in the world to say that God does not exist?

But we could just as easily say that there is too much suffering in the world for God to exist, if God is good, and if God is so good, why is there so much suffering, and I don't mean the suffering caused by human free will choices, I mean the suffering that is fated by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That was always an interesting take for me as there's many people whose lives are full of suffering and God is their only refuge.

Do you mean what people 'imagine' God is doing to alleviate their suffering or what they imagine God is going to do if they just keep praying? I'm still waiting, and I am sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well if jihad is laying down your life, it's a funny definition of love.

Jihad is Muhammad, not Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God really has a message for me or wants to tell me how to live my life then there are numerous ways to contact me. Human beings can visit my doorstep, send me an SMS, or even call my phone. God's free to use any of those at any time. I've even prayed to him and told him as much.

Simply put, God cannot do what human beings do because God is not a human being. God is not a physical being that can 'show up' on our doorstep or call us on our cell phone, God is spirit. I believe that God sends human beings to us to help us in times of need. In other words, God works through humans by somehow directing us towards those humans or by directing them towards us.

Believers will think this is a silly and odd request, that I clearly don't get how the whole "God" thing works. Well, neither do they, because they've never actually spoken to the guy, either.

Aside from sending humans to help us, I believe God can communicate to our minds and guide us in the right direction if we are open to that guidance. Of course I cannot prove any of this, it is just what I have experienced.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Baha'is say that God is unseen and unknowable except for what the manifestations of God tell us about him or it. But it's mainly what their prophet tells us about this God. I still go with that it doesn't matter if this God is real or not... it is that this God is believed to be or imagined to be real that becomes important. And because the Baha'is, Christians or people in other religions that have a different concept of the gods, believe their gods to be real, they follow the rules of their religion and listen to their leaders. And that what becomes important to them. But could it all be in their imaginations? Since there's so many variations of who or what god is, I'd have to say that at least for some of them, and maybe all of them, they were just gods that those people made up.

I guess a lot of people just can't see the danger in that. In another thread, we've discussed why Baha'is treat LGBT people differently, and we know that Christians and Muslims frequently do likewise. Because people believe what they've been told by these so-called "manifestations of God," Jews and a sizeable number of Muslims and Christians mutilate their male children's penises (and in the case of some Muslims, their daughters' labia and clitoris). These are very real things done because, as you put it, because this real or imagined God is "believed to be real."

I have to tell you, before I would go ahead and believe one of these "manifestations" and ruin my daughter's sexual enjoyment for life, I'd want something just a little more than comfortable belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

So for #2: you're assuming a particular version of God?

Yes, I am assuming an all-loving God, the kind of God that Christians and some other religions believe in.
There is too much suffering in the world for an 'all-loving God' to exist is a legitimate reason to believe an all-loving God does not exist, although another kind of God might exist.

I ask because suffering works just fine to support the conclusion that God isn't good - or isn't powerful and wise enough to prevent suffering - unless we're taking it as given that God MUST be good, powerful and wise.

Imo, suffering works just fine to support the conclusion that God isn't all-loving.

I do not believe that an all-powerful and all-wise God would prevent suffering because that would be an admission that He made a mistake when He created a world that is a storehouse of suffering and an infallible God cannot make mistakes. Some suffering might be good because it helps people grow stronger but not all suffering achieves that purpose. To blame humans for the way they react to suffering, when it was God who set up the circumstances that caused them to react that way, their heredity and childhood experiences, is wholly unfair.

God is left holding the bag for suffering that comes to humans by way of fate, that is anything that is not freely chosen by us. What we want to think about God for fating, which is in effect causing, suffering is a personal opinion. In my opinion, that is not loving, not any more than a husband beating a wife is loving.

- or isn't powerful and wise enough to prevent suffering - unless we're taking it as given that God MUST be good, powerful and wise.

There is no way we can know what God is, we can only believe, and certain religious people believe that God MUST be good, powerful and wise because their scriptures say so.

Are there any other attributes of God that you're assuming here (or that you want us to assume)?

No, I was mostly thinking about an all-loving God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Other potential legitimate reasons not to believe in God:

- Positive evidence that the universe is godless (i.e. going beyond just the lack of evidence in your reason #1).

- Positive evidence for a system that's inconsistent with God (e.g. strong evidence for a belief system that preaches a closed pantheon without God-with-a-capital-G).

What is this positive evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

* There is no proof that life invented itself.

*There is too much good in the world for it to simply be a meaningless material phenomenon.

Conversely....

* There is no proof that God created life.

*There is too much bad in the world for a good God to exist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One reason not to believe in God, is if one lacks self control and cannot follow the moral codes of religion, then a non belief in God can offer an excuse to hide the fact the ego lacks self control.

After my brother died it became clear to me such positions are very arrogant. It sticks out like a hand that's dead with gangrene.
What do you know about what we want? You claim people don't want to be moral. Most people want to be a good person. But you claim we lack self control and can't.
It's like the claim that your god seeks those looking. He missed that window of opportunity with me. But yet it will be assumed still I just need to open up.
For a religion that promotes piety and humility the arrogance of Christians--especially when it comes to judging others--is staggering and astounding.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. "proof" is a notoriously problematic term. To the best of my knowledge there is no proof of string theory or the existence of extraterrestrial life. Would you believe that belief in either is illegitimate?
2. Who made up that rule? You pretend to know the qualities of a God that you then deem improbable. Whether or not God exists, the problem is entirely the result of that pretense.

1. There is evidence that God exists but there is no proof that God exists. Evidence indicates that something exists but proof is verifiable. God's existence cannot be verified by humans because we cannot go to where God is located and verify God.
2. There is no rule, and we cannot know the qualities of God. All we can have are personal opinions and beliefs about the qualities of God.
Imo, there is too much suffering in the world for an all-loving God to exist. Everyone else in my religion (that I know of) believes that God is all-loving, and they believe that because the scriptures say that, but I just cannot make that work in my mind given all the suffering I see in this world, suffering that comes to humans through no fault of their own, and not by choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

The legitimate reason to not believe in gods is that there is insufficient evidence to believe. The empiricist waits for a finding (evidence) that requires positing a god to explain before invoking that hypothesis. Presently, there is none - no evidence that isn't consistent with a godless, naturalistic universe.

Of course that all depends upon what you consider to be evidence for God, and that varies widely between individuals.
It is only a personal opinion that there is evidence or a lack of evidence.
That the evidence is consistent with a godless, naturalistic universe is only a personal opinion based upon how you interpret what you see.

 

[Ella S.]

Aside from sending humans to help us, I believe God can communicate to our minds and guide us in the right direction if we are open to that guidance.

Are you saying that the mechanism God uses to communicate is cognitive bias? I don't mean that as an uncharitable interpretation but that's generally what we call mental processes that form conclusions based on something other than reason.

Most of the arguments I hear in favor of God also tend to be forms of cognitive bias, like appeals to faith which are often a form of wishful thinking.

Of course I cannot prove any of this, it is just what I have experienced.

In my opinion, as soon as you admit that your claims have no evidential basis, you've provided a strong argument for why your claims should be dismissed.

If you are not forming your conclusions by the logical analysis of empirical evidence or formal axioms, then you are forming them based on cognitive bias and fallacy.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. There's no shortage of evidence that God does not exist.

What's that evidence?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Imo, there is too much suffering in the world for an all-loving God to exist. Everyone else in my religion (that I know of) believes that God is all-loving, and they believe that because the scriptures say that, but I just cannot make that work in my mind given all the suffering I see in this world, suffering that comes to humans through no fault of their own, and not by choice.

I'm sorry that you are experiencing these feelings.
I am struggling with low faith atm myself.

Job, peace be with him, suffered greatly, but somehow managed to cling to faith. Us ordinary mortals find it so much harder.
I do believe that it is satan that raises these doubts in our minds,
and it is extremely hard to prevent ourselves from becoming overwhelmed.

The thing is, losing our physical/mental health is a great loss, but when we lose our faith as well, it is the greatest loss of all.
Our lives become even more miserable and we lose hope for the future.

 

[Secret Chief]

I also must remembeer Buddhism that says nothing about the characteristics of God.

Well, Buddhism is not a revealed religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

The thing is, losing our physical/mental health is a great loss, but when we lose our faith as well, it is the greatest loss of all.
Our lives become even more miserable and we lose hope for the future.

I have not lost my faith. I have always questioned how God can be all-loving according to what I think that would be expressed in this world, but God does not need to be all-loving, whatever that means, in order to be God.

In spite of all that I have lost, and not really having any reason to hope for the future, a part of me has hope for the future, although that part is a very small part at the moment.