Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, it opens up a minefield because hearing of God is not the same as hearing from God, and as you know atheists do not believe that hearing from Messengers is the same as hearing from God.

Yes we are prone to be caught up in own understandings, I know I have much to learn.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Nor do Christians. Hearing from Jesus is the same as hearing from God.

True.

But of course Jesus is more than a mere messenger.

True, Jesus was also a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nor do Christians. Hearing from Jesus is the same as hearing from God. But of course Jesus is more than a mere messenger.

One may then offer that Jesus is like a Manifestation of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

One may then offer that Jesus is like a Manifestation of God.

Regards Tony

Jesus was not "like" a Manifestation of God, Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not what he did?

No, that is just what it felt like at the time.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is not what he did, that is just what it felt like at the time. All he did was try to 'convince me' that God is loving.

My personal opinion as a survivor of childhood abuse is that God is about as loving and merciful as a king cobra.

Christians try to convince people that God is loving all the time... Does that make Christianity a cult?

Well, the whole "God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity. It's part of the evangelical strategy a lot of Christians will use to entice unbelievers into converting to Christianity. Of course, they're more likely to attract potential converts with feel-good messages like "God is love!" or "God loves you!" rather than with a message like this: "God is love, but you should know that the Bible says that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. So, just ignore that part. And while you're at it, ignore the scriptures about God forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, dashing infants' heads against rocks, ordering the death of witches, ordering the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, ignore the verses where it says that God killed every living person on earth, with the exception of one family, in a global flood." It seems to me that evangelical Christians want unbelievers to pay attention to and believe the positive verses about God's so-called love and mercy while ignoring the negative ones revealing his malevolent behavior.

If their evangelical ploy of attracting converts included some of the horrific stories in the Bible, then how many converts do you think they would attract and convince to convert to Christianity? It's understandable that Christians will adamantly deny that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. As an ex-Christian myself, I know that it's much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame mankind or the devil for the evil in the world rather than blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in.

I think that it stands to reason that Christians would replace the word "evil" with a less offensive word, like disaster and calamity.

Isaiah 45:7

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

 

[Trailblazer]

My personal opinion as a survivor of childhood abuse is that God is about as loving and merciful as a king cobra.

Well, the whole "God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity. It's part of the evangelical strategy a lot of Christians will use to entice unbelievers into converting to Christianity. Of course, they're more likely to attract potential converts with feel-good messages like "God is love!" or "God loves you!" rather than with a message like this: "God is love, but you should know that the Bible says that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. So, just ignore that part. And while you're at it, ignore the scriptures about God forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, dashing infants' heads against rocks, ordering the death of witches, ordering the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, ignore the verses where it says that God killed every living person on earth, with the exception of one family, in a global flood." It seems to me that evangelical Christians want unbelievers to pay attention to and believe the positive verses about God's so-called love and mercy while ignoring the negative ones revealing his malevolent behavior.

If their evangelical ploy of attracting converts included some of the horrific stories in the Bible, then how many converts do you think they would attract and convince to convert to Christianity? It's understandable that Christians will adamantly deny that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. As an ex-Christian myself, I know that it's much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame mankind or the devil for the evil in the world rather than blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in.

I think that it stands to reason that Christians would replace the word "evil" with a less offensive word, like disaster and calamity.

Isaiah 45:7

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

You might like this thread that I started a while ago.

I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

 

[CG Didymus]

My personal opinion as a survivor of childhood abuse is that God is about as loving and merciful as a king cobra.



Well, the whole "God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity. It's part of the evangelical strategy a lot of Christians will use to entice unbelievers into converting to Christianity. Of course, they're more likely to attract potential converts with feel-good messages like "God is love!" or "God loves you!" rather than with a message like this: "God is love, but you should know that the Bible says that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. So, just ignore that part. And while you're at it, ignore the scriptures about God forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, dashing infants' heads against rocks, ordering the death of witches, ordering the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, ignore the verses where it says that God killed every living person on earth, with the exception of one family, in a global flood." It seems to me that evangelical Christians want unbelievers to pay attention to and believe the positive verses about God's so-called love and mercy while ignoring the negative ones revealing his malevolent behavior.

If their evangelical ploy of attracting converts included some of the horrific stories in the Bible, then how many converts do you think they would attract and convince to convert to Christianity? It's understandable that Christians will adamantly deny that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. As an ex-Christian myself, I know that it's much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame mankind or the devil for the evil in the world rather than blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in.

I think that it stands to reason that Christians would replace the word "evil" with a less offensive word, like disaster and calamity.

Isaiah 45:7

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

But that's the same God Baha'is believe in. But I'd suspect that Baha'is don't take those verses literally.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My personal opinion as a survivor of childhood abuse is that God is about as loving and merciful as a king cobra.



Well, the whole "God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity. It's part of the evangelical strategy a lot of Christians will use to entice unbelievers into converting to Christianity. Of course, they're more likely to attract potential converts with feel-good messages like "God is love!" or "God loves you!" rather than with a message like this: "God is love, but you should know that the Bible says that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. So, just ignore that part. And while you're at it, ignore the scriptures about God forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, dashing infants' heads against rocks, ordering the death of witches, ordering the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, ignore the verses where it says that God killed every living person on earth, with the exception of one family, in a global flood." It seems to me that evangelical Christians want unbelievers to pay attention to and believe the positive verses about God's so-called love and mercy while ignoring the negative ones revealing his malevolent behavior.

If their evangelical ploy of attracting converts included some of the horrific stories in the Bible, then how many converts do you think they would attract and convince to convert to Christianity? It's understandable that Christians will adamantly deny that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. As an ex-Christian myself, I know that it's much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame mankind or the devil for the evil in the world rather than blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in.

I think that it stands to reason that Christians would replace the word "evil" with a less offensive word, like disaster and calamity.

Isaiah 45:7

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

But that's the same God Baha'is believe in. But I'd suspect that Baha'is don't take those verses literally.

That is this matrix CG. It is a world of opposites which God has created on the Twin pillars of reward and punishment, founded in Love over hate.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

The subject of suffering is indeed a challenge.

A subject that does seem to defy logic. Yet it is those that told us about God that suffer the most in this world and it is those that told us about God, that say God is all Loving.

Well if they are suffering that much then they are in serious distress and not thinking straight, so we should avoid believing what they claim. We still have our own observations about reality that informs us that if some sort of God exists it is not moral.

o it is a quandary indeed. The solution to that quandary may be found in the very suffering one faces? Could it be that finding one's own answer to this, could be also finding out what it is to be all Loving?

It comes down to loving the self, and friends and family offering support.

Personally I look back at my darkness hours and see that from them, that I was shown many things I would have not have seen if I had not been through those dark hours and this is the door it led me to, personally I am yet to walk through, but at the door one can appreciate the wisdom beyond that door.

It's a tyical experience in life. What does it have to do with any Gods? What will a 5 year old dying of cancer take away about the God her parents believe in?

 

[F1fan]

Personally I would suggest the only legitimate reasons would be if one has not heard of God.

First, there are many different versions of God. You Bahia have your own version that differs significantly from Christians and Muslims despite the obvious copying that happened. Second, what does hearing about any gods mean it is convincing? I heard all about God, and the multiple gods of some religions, and asked too many questions that were not answerred to my intellectual satisfaction. I had no choice but to not be convinced. Sure, other around me bought into belief in God and religion, but they never asked questions like I did. They just went along like cheerful sheep.

That opens a minefield as well!

It does for Bahai, because how often does your version of God get talked about? Very little.

 

[CG Didymus]

But that's the same God Baha'is believe in. But I'd suspect that Baha'is don't take those verses literally.

That is this matrix CG. It is a world of opposites which God has created on the Twin pillars of reward and punishment, founded in Love over hate.

Do Baha'is take the flood literally? I don't think Baha'is take literally, do you? How about the killing of all the men, woman and children in Jericho? And the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

The God of the Bible, if you take the Bible literally, can be seen as a wrathful, vengeful, jealous God. For Baha'is is he?

 

[rational experiences]

If humans say gods heavens the body mass one.

One mass is in two variables

The gas spirit body heavens.

Rock's mass.

Two types of God.

A sacrificed God body of the heavens is a story.

Cold gases. Burning gases. Sun dusts above the fuel keeping burning. Clouds.

The sacrificed body of god the mass spirits first are all holy....all holy bodies in mass own the sacrificed heavens.

One body the spirit of the heavens.

Why no man is God.

Now ask why a human has to argue no man is God. If you were correct there would be no argument whatsoever.

Humans animal nature garden earths ground mass into sin holes... sink hole
Bodies attacked sacrificed.

Determined egotist theist man scientist. Behaviour. Destroyer...murderer of all things involving rich..human want control. Behaviours.

I want everything as a power in the space womb to resource.

Infinity. Mass. Not any human..
To resource.

Means to obtain. To convert. To own I invented the new resource.

No man is God.

New. Terms a human says is created as the meaning to be gained from another position. New. What a creator concept does or did.

Man human not a God.

Man human brain defected by sun stones star fall. Not earth as his God type in science. A planets mass not suns type.

A sun put its mass into earth historic.

Man human not sun stone body mass or advice. It however told him advice communicated by mind attack heavens mass saved his life.

Man not heavens mass that saved him.

Between suns stone earths body....did you man create in science the body earth?

No.

I am proven brain mind defected by the suns star mass...converting itself giving me false advice. Man the human theist who has been mind brain theist of self possessed since.

His idea I will possess Fu Sion. Sion. I will cause it to fis Sion by machine.

How I possessed Sion. Isn't being Sion his evil church lie. As the hypocrite before the church was man his satanist science brother.

Men used to naturally quote my man brother was Satan. Yet in thesis Satan is an angel image that forms in the body mass of clouds formation.

No man is God the human warning.

If Satan image is in clouds as is man's image or animals images then no man is God.

As the sun owned science on planet earth itself.

Reasoned...no man is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that's the same God Baha'is believe in. But I'd suspect that Baha'is don't take those verses literally.

I take them literally.

I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

 

[rational experiences]

I take them literally.

I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

Human testimonial.
Reason life was sacrificed.
Written after the fact of all outcomes.

King lord human enslaver. Judas poorer king of old wanting to get rich.

Agreed rebuilt Jerusalem science temple pyramids. Attacked sacrificed life as rich men who historic as now poor slave race Jewish Judaic terms had been life sacrificed before were taught already.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do Baha'is take the flood literally?
I don't think Baha'is take literally, do you?

No, Baha'is do not believe there was a worldwide flood.

From Baha'iTeachings.org:

You might think that such a widespread myth has some actual historical evidence to back it up, but multiple scientific investigations, conducted over many successive generations, have never produced any evidence of a global deluge, or any trace of an Ark.

Perhaps, then, these ubiquitous deluge myths signify something more, something deeply symbolic meant to inspire and educate us.

Deluge Myths, Noah’s Ark and the Renewal of Religion

How about the killing of all the men, woman and children in Jericho? And the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho.
(25 November 1950 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

The God of the Bible, if you take the Bible literally, can be seen as a wrathful, vengeful, jealous God. For Baha'is is he?

We believe that God has wrath, but not that God is vengeful or jealous.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then rebut it if it is incorrect in your opinion. Explain why you think it is wrong. Simply dissenting has no power of persuasion. If you could come up with a better definition of existent that doesn't allow nonexistent thing to be called existent, you would, but you can't.

I have no interest in persuading you of anything I believe. All I will say is that your assumption that all existent things are material, making all spiritual things nonexistent, is just a personal opinion. It is not a fact.

I guess you don't have a problem offering personal opinion as fact after all.

I did not offer that as a fact. I offered it as a belief. Did I say it was a fact?

You don't see that as a comforting belief? Why don't you just defy this god, or would that be too uncomfortable?

No, I do not see the wrath of God as comforting. I do not defy God because I fear God.

 

[Truthseeker]

The only reason there I have a conflict is because it has been shoved down my throat that God is all-loving and it is drop dead obvious to me that God cannot be all-loving given all the suffering in this world, and I do not mean only my own suffering. If it was only my suffering that could be just bad luck. This world is as Abdu'l-Baha said, a Storehouse of Suffering.

Baha'is are so illogical, to believe God is all-loving when God is the one who created the world that is a storehouse of suffering.

Yes, but the illogical part I was referring to is that you believe in in Baha'u'llah but don't believe what he said on this on this. You use logic to concude that God can't be all loving. There's a conflict there. Right? Saying that Baha'is are illogical is a little judgemental, don't you think? We are using logic too. I know I am. It is about everybody's suffering, not just yours, I get that. You said this numerous times before. But maybe your own suffering makes you empathic about other suffering in the world, and that colors your logic with emotion. You can say about me that I haven't suffered that much, so I don't appreciate the suffering of others nearly as much, and so my judgment on this is different from yours, and this colors my logic. Humans are all illogical to some degree depending on their experiences.

 

[samtonga43]

No, that is just what it felt like at the time.

Right. So you were wrong when you said that a friend in your religion had been shoving that belief down your throat.

 

[samtonga43]

I have no interest in persuading you of anything I believe. All I will say is that your assumption that all existent things are material, making all spiritual things nonexistent, is just a personal opinion. It is not a fact.

I did not offer that as a fact. I offered it as a belief. Did I say it was a fact?

No, I do not see the wrath of God as comforting. I do not defy God because I fear God.

How sad.
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love". 1 John 4:18