Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[Trailblazer]

Two thousand years later, and one is left wondering if the New Covenant is any less of a bust than the old one... perhaps the time has come for a Third Covenant?

Baha'is believe that the New Covenant that Christians believe in has been superseded by another Covenant, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

 

[CG Didymus]

I’m not sure if this is true, CG. I don’t think that feeling guilty and repenting means they would never sin again; repentance is a lifelong process.
When Peter asked Jesus whether we are obligated to forgive a person who sins against us seven times (Peter’s “seven times” more than doubled the rabbinic prescription), Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times”.

Of course, it's not true that anybody will ever be perfectly sinless. But what do Christians do when they continue to do the same sins over and over again? If they say, "Oh God, I'm so sorry. I sinned against you. I'll never do that again." That's not true, and they know it's not true. So, what do they say? "God forgive me this time and the next time and the time after that when I commit this same sin"? I knew Christians that were guilt ridden over having lustful thoughts and the times when they gave in to their lustful desires. I and also knew some Christians that didn't seem to feel guilty at all but tried to keep it secret.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where does Jesus define what a "true Christian" is?

Well, it's best to keep it simple..
i.e. the shema .. there is only One God .. wish for others what you wish for yourself

The more one defines a creed, the more divisive it becomes, imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

To get back to Jesus being God, I think that's a great example of the power of having a belief that something is true. Those Christians, I'm sure, feel the power, the love, the presence of Jesus and God in their lives. But if Jesus is not God, then what they are feeling is all in their minds and is make-believe.

It isn't make believe as such .. the big question is how does Jesus being God affect our belief?

Does it mean we should pray to Jesus?
Does it mean that Jesus is not subordinate to "the Father"?
How does the belief affect our duty to God?
..and so forth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why would he let Jesus define Christian for him? The unbeliever generally has no behavioral test for the Christian. There is nothing he must or must not do to be one. I do have a doctrinal requirement - certain core beliefs that must be present - but just like a census taker or poll taker, I don't test people who tell me that they're Christian to see if they hold them.

Hey IANS, it’s been awhile since we last spoke… hope y’all are doing well.
I believe Jesus was aware of the many diverse belief systems that would arise among those professing Christianity. But he cut through all that, when he stated to look for actions, to ID his followers, at John 13:35. And he also said, “you are my friends, if you do what I command you. (John 15:13)” So if they don’t, are they his friends then? Those are Jesus’ words, I didn’t put them there.

"As of the year 2020, Christianity had approximately 2.4 billion adherents and is the largest-religion by population respectively."

How do you suppose that number was determined? Not with either doctrinal or behavior tests.

No, you’re right. That’s simply performed by adding up Church rosters.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We're conscious. The universe is unconscious as best we can tell - certainly at the scale of human experience. Unconscious matter is purposeless..

Whoa, hold on there.
We are part of the universe, as are all creatures.

We are not aimless, so nether is "the cosmos".

So no rebuttal then? Shall we consider the matter resolved? Can we assume that if you had such an argument, we would have seen it by now? I do.

I know you do, but the matter is not resolved.
One or two sentences of a reply could not resolve it.
I would agree that scripture appears to suggest an anthropomorphic "God", but if one ponders upon God's nature, one cannot precisely define what God actually is.

One could write many books just on that topic alone.
To my understanding God is not a person, like a king is a person.
ALL OF OUR SOULS BELONG TO GOD.

The above statement shows the infinite nature of God, and God does not need wifi to know what we are thinking, for example.
One has to think in terms of the non-material .. the unseen .. the undetectable.

We say that God is One, but that does not imply "a superior soul/person" .. it implies that the source of all is the only one worthy of respect and has supreme knowledge and authority.

..sorry, I might be rambling a bit .. it is not easy for me to explain.

For example, God knows what a tree and a rock is feeling. He feels/knows about every atom. A deist also has similar concept.

That was in response to, "Once again, show me the reasoning. These claims have no persuasive power without a sound argument preceding them." Your response included no reasoning. Can we assume once again that that is because you have no reasoning to show? I do.

It is not through a lack of me trying.
You seem to see the cosmos as "dead", apart from the reasoning of creatures with brains. You assume this, because you assume that something without a brain is "dead" .. is a tree dead?
Can a tree feel pain?

Yes, it's my opinion, but I also contend that it is correct. Show me a religion that doesn't contain dogma. My worldview, humanism, contains no dogma, but it's also not a religion.

Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

..so it all comes down to the source of the authority. That is what needs to be established.
In your worldview, there is no claim other than a human authority, reached by a human consensus.

Regards your "birth control" objection, where is the source of authority for this "fatwa" or ruling?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

To get back to Jesus being God, I think that's a great example of the power of having a belief that something is true. Those Christians, I'm sure, feel the power, the love, the presence of Jesus and God in their lives. But if Jesus is not God, then what they are feeling is all in their minds and is make-believe.

Good questions!

Im going to quote this passage again: Matthew 7:21-23. How would these ones, whom Jesus called “workers of iniquity / sin”, perform “powerful works”? Obviously, it’s not with Jesus’ support, or God’s. Who else could be backing them?

Paul provided the answer, at
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

Strong answer, I know.

 

[TLK Valentine]

To get back to Jesus being God, I think that's a great example of the power of having a belief that something is true. Those Christians, I'm sure, feel the power, the love, the presence of Jesus and God in their lives. But if Jesus is not God, then what they are feeling is all in their minds and is make-believe.

If that "make believe" makes them happy, there's nothing make-believe about their happiness. Good for them if they've found something.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And yet, Jehovah had no problem interfering in man's ruling of himself countless times... arguably the entire Bible is a record of those interferences.

Actually, let’s be honest here: Jehovah was protecting His people, the line through whom the Messiah would be born. He did so, passionately.

In fact, it’s through the death of the Messiah — giving his perfect life as a sacrifice , a sacrifice that would correspond to Adam’s perfect life — that these same ones who died will be resurrected. — Acts of the apostles 24:15.


IMO

 

[TLK Valentine]

Actually, let’s be honest here: Jehovah was protecting His people, the line through whom the Messiah would be born. He did so, passionately.

Passionately, and pointlessly.

Jehovah could have brought the Messiah forward at any time of His choosing. That His "chosen people" held no intrinsic worth to Him and were only breeding stock for a future hero puts the Covenant in a whole new light... and not a flattering one.

In fact, it’s through the death of the Messiah — giving his perfect life as a sacrifice , a sacrifice that would correspond to Adam’s perfect life — that these same ones who died will be resurrected. — Acts of the apostles 24:15.


IMO

Adam's "perfect life" was anything but -- his actions literally (if the Bible is to be believed) led to the fall of the cosmos requiring a Messiah, and the metaphysical melodrama surrounding him, in the first place.

 

[samtonga43]

My response to MrB’s bolded words followeth.
Jesus is not a manifestation. He is the Second Person of the Trinity.

View attachment 68695

I am glad you found optimism in the Trinity diagram, Tb.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Someone is clearly asleep at the wheel with regards to all these atrocities done in His name.

Whom does the Bible say is ruling the world (temporarily)? Luke 4:5-6. Note that Jesus didn’t dispute that, either. In fact Jesus called him “the prince of this world” several times. 2 Corinthians 4:4 refers to Satan as “the god of this world.”

I gave you a “condensed version”, earlier. But if you’d rather not try to understand those issues raised in the G of E, which BTW most people aren’t even aware of, then we’re at an impasse.

Why are you brining up murder?… This isn't the issue.

You brought it up:

there have been Christians who tortured and executed people for witchcraft

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jehovah could have brought the Messiah forward at any time of His choosing. That His "chosen people" held no intrinsic worth to Him and were only breeding stock for a future hero puts the Covenant in a whole new light... and not a flattering one.

Mmm .. but that isn't it.
God has sent 1000's of prophets and messengers to ancient civilisations. God did not ONLY guide the Israelites through Moses .. there were many before him.

Jesus disciples believed that he is the promised messiah.
The Jews of today say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the messiah, so he was a false messiah. There have been many.

However, Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus will return and fulfill these prophecies [destroying falsehood and corruption].
This world is finite, and mankind will not thrive forever here on earth, but there will be a global age of peace and prosperity when Jesus returns [ ~1000 years].
Eventually, this final civilisation will weaken over subsequent generations, and "the trumpet will be blown" .. the final days of planet earth will commence.

[Book of Revelation]

 

[TLK Valentine]

Whom does the Bible say is ruling the world (temporarily)? Luke 4:5-6. Note that Jesus didn’t dispute that, either. In fact Jesus called him “the prince of this world” several times. 2 Corinthians 4:4 refers to Satan as “the god of this world.”

I gave you a “condensed version”, earlier. But if you’d rather not try to understand those issues raised in the G of E, which BTW most people aren’t even aware of, then we’re at an impasse.

It is unfortunate that you choose to interpret "not believing" as "not trying to understand," but hardly a new experience.

Please understand that I have heard the "condensed version" many times over -- I have also heard the "unabridged version" almost as many times... I find them equally unconvincing.

If anything, the scriptures you've cited make things even more problematic -- God is not "asleep" at His post; He has (temporarily) abandoned it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Passionately, and pointlessly.

Jehovah could have brought the Messiah forward at any time of His choosing. That His "chosen people" held no intrinsic worth to Him and were only breeding stock for a future hero puts the Covenant in a whole new light... and not a flattering one.

No, not pointless.
As I said, there were issues raised in Eden, and those issues — especially dealing with mankind ruling themselves — would take time to settle.

Adam's "perfect life" was anything but -- his actions literally (if the Bible is to be believed) led to the fall of the cosmos requiring a Messiah, and the metaphysical melodrama surrounding him, in the first place.

Adam being perfect doesn’t mean he would not have free will, his ability to make unwise choices.
The fact that he was perfect, is borne out by his immediate offspring having such long lives. Which eventually, as more & more generations arrived, IOW further from the original source Adam, shortened to 70-100 years.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Mmm .. but that isn't it.
God has sent 1000's of prophets and messengers to ancient civilisations. God did not ONLY guide the Israelites through Moses .. there were many before him.

Modern civilizations, as well... and many more after Moses.

Depending on how one defines "prophet" -- I personally like "Someone who has enough insight (allegedly with divine help) to see beyond the surface of things to reveal timeless truth" -- We could add Buddha, Sun Tzu, Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, Mohammed, Thomas More, Niccolo Machiavelli, William Shakespeare, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Isaac Newton, Thomas Paine, Charles Darwin, Sigmund Freud, Henry David Thoreau, Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Mahatma Gandhi, Elvis Presley, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Joseph Campbell, Carl Sagan, John Shelby Spong, Bob Dylan...

Jesus disciples believed that he is the promised messiah.
The Jews of today say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the messiah, so he was a false messiah. There have been many.

They have a persuasive argument -- It's their religion, after all.

Early Messianic mythology said that the Messiah would be a king or military leader who would raise the nation to power and prominence -- "Make Israel Great Again," as it were.

After the Babylonian Captivity, that idea looked like a pipe dream, and the "Messiah" because a religious figure whose coming would signal the End of the World.

Over time, the two images of "Messiah" became conflated and interchangeable -- but that's moot, because Jesus came and went (and if the Bible is to be believed, came back and went again), having accomplished neither.

However, Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus will return and fulfill these prophecies [destroying falsehood and corruption].

Only time will tell who (if anyone) is right.
(Personally, I'm rooting for the Vikings; Valhalla sounds like a fun afterlife)

This world is finite, and mankind will not thrive forever here on earth, but there will be a global age of peace and prosperity when Jesus returns [ ~1000 years].
Eventually, this final civilisation will weaken over subsequent generations, and "the trumpet will be blown" .. the final days of planet earth will commence.
[Book of Revelation]

So it is said...

 

[samtonga43]

Of course, it's not true that anybody will ever be perfectly sinless. But what do Christians do when they continue to do the same sins over and over again? If they say, "Oh God, I'm so sorry. I sinned against you. I'll never do that again." That's not true, and they know it's not true. So, what do they say? "God forgive me this time and the next time and the time after that when I commit this same sin"? I knew Christians that were guilt ridden over having lustful thoughts and the times when they gave in to their lustful desires. I and also knew some Christians that didn't seem to feel guilty at all but tried to keep it secret.

I can only speak for myself, but my prayers have never included the third sentence in the following,
"Oh God, I'm so sorry. I sinned against you. I'll never do that again”.
I really cannot imagine my Christian friends saying otherwise.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Please understand that I have heard the "condensed version" many times over -- I have also heard the "unabridged version" almost as many times... I find them equally unconvincing.

No, I doubt that!
You’ve never heard of “the issues raised” in Genesis 3:1-6…
I’ve only learned that through Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’ve never read it in any other source.

Come on, be honest.

 

[rational experiences]

The law on earth gods O planet the entity.

Stated in the life presence human men. They invented number one theory owning all numbers inside number one.

Position one.

Means no falsification a minus number in nuclear no falsification + add cross number.

Science destroyed one.

Nuclear event.

So zero was all that was left. Not one.

Life now only survived in zero infinity. Said men of science. Exact conscious advice human first. Theist man not first in conscious advice.

Said human legal the law on earth entity God. Legal argument God the entity body that had created mass heavens.

All gases belonged to earth not the sun. As the sun mass used burning gases to get to earth was the teaching.

To travel alight gases takes you. Across zero infinite nothingness.

Laws.

To speak about law ark flood breaking laws. A human has to exist.

A human thinks back when back isn't any science reality.

Sciences claim I'm exact now. Legal.

First once only ever human sciences beginning. The moment the transmitting machines button was pushed. By a man.

Once.

Can never be repeated as earths laws natural changed instantaneous once.

Science just a practice as a cult agreement changes by cult structure beliefs in its owned living experience.

The cult. Never origin human parent baby life.

The cult.

Changed personal only human brain mind of particular men changed by star phenomena. Once first. Natural only.

Constant fixed human controlled machine a cult choice.

Hypocrites.
Abusive slavery civilisation status.
Rich.

Humans who by for world control by one deity human man self idolator. DNA hierarchy nation.

Family as first parent nature life. Every human life first. Natural. Conscious. Thinks about family.

Actually isn't organisation controlled it's nature's law on earth.

Earth God entity in human law was a legal precedence for family. Wasn't actually organisational controlled. It was advice for anyone to confer legally argue.

Legal argument previously a non science temple pyramid was agreed legal Jesus advice. Life attacked sacrificed. Was never a real deity.

It was world agreed legal agreement about life had been sacrificed.

Old used testimony the ark had been conjured. As the building using earth rock was the pyramid body only.

The machine legal said had come from the sun and it was evil. Metals.

Flooding in earths law stated life of biology is 2 bodies by sex law that inherited any bio changes in sex only as one attack science was a choice.

All genetics including nature garden already had been evicted. So today there is no link connection to origin life. As a cult science thesis.

So no origin type lived or existed in nature anymore. The taught exact reason why science had been outlawed. Not origin anything any more. Earths God plus heavens position.

You have to be living first a human to experience earths heavens flooding.

As it rains above over mountains....the law mountains attacked by UFO fallout has kept flooding on earth worldwide anywhere.

Discussed how evil cult human technology had caused earths flooding anywhere. Even in deserts it said it could suddenly flood.

As it floods genetics water loss in cold gas support is dying unnaturally leaving.

As it floods only because heavens gases have been burnt changed natural fully clouds into streams lines.

As clouds protection cold gas above is being destroyed by satanic cult human experiments. Life's destroyer warning.

The cult. Hypocrite rich men in technology nuclear science. Choice only.

Therefore the self Idolating man's hypocrite position. Still owned expressed today is baby man.

Who predicted in my own human future my current day advice will be proven incorrect. And updated. In his past life's position. Knew.

Which states why no man is God legally. And none but a natural human is correct in human only advices.

Born by two preceding humans as humans.
Was a human baby now adult advised.

Human as a human for humans about humans.

Owning no legal position to argue about human rights on earth human legal.


Once only.

Known legality. Our human parent a baby before us. Future babies new now exist.

No Satan involved.
No alien involved.

Human law for humans on earth was legal human.

No satanic theory allowed satanisms any type especially about a sun star was evil. Earth hit by star said law legal human.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No, not pointless.
As I said, there were issues raised in Eden, and those issues — especially dealing with mankind ruling themselves — would take time to settle.

And what is that time being used for?

Adam being perfect doesn’t mean he would not have free will, his ability to make unwise choices.

It would seem that wisdom is not a prerequisite for perfection. Not a comforting thought.

The fact that he was perfect, is borne out by his immediate offspring having such long lives. Which eventually, as more & more generations arrived, IOW further from the original source Adam, shortened to 70-100 years.

That's one possible explanation -- one made less comforting noting that those immediate offspring apparently did nothing worthy of mention during those long lives.