..and all this shows that Jesus and Muhammad do not tell the truth?
Assuming a Jesus existed as the myth describes, and assuming the words were recorded accurately, and assuming all the edits in the Bible were justified and didn't change the meanings.....
What makes anything these characters in books to be telling the truth when the ideas are NOT verifiable as TRUE? When people refer to Gods, angels, demons, whatever can we be confident they are telling the truth, or do we have healthy skepitism? I have skepticism. You decide these texts are true because you have other, non-rational motives.
When ordinary, every day mortal believers, like you, claims some text is the truth then you had better have a rational basis for that claim. No one is obligated to accept your faith-based reasons to decide truth. You have no authority as a God, nor from a God, for anyone to accept your beliefs and claims.
Not to me. I expect to see corruption in human affairs.
Look at religions for their own forms of corruption.
Religious belief does not turn people into faultless angels.
..and hypocrisy also exists, where people pay lip-service only.
This is why I request believers use the same rational tools as critical thinkers when they contribute in religious debates. If religion offers no advantage, then believers had better use reliable tools, like reason.
It means that they don't lie about the existence of God and that they were indeed sent by Him to teach and warn.
That's not supported by facts or reason. I'm asking you to provide evidence, not accepting ideas by faith just because others around you believe it.
Do Muslims have facts that support their beklief? Or do Muslims just accept what other Muslims around them believe, and carry on these ideas via social learning?
I don't actually. I acknowledge that they believe in God, Jesus and/or Muhammad, but have a different tradition or understanding.
So are you saying that you believe Hindus are actually beliving in the Abrahamic God, even though Hindus existed before Jews and their idea of Yahweh was formed from the Caananite polytheistic system?
Do you have any evidence, or are you trying to impose your belief onto them to help explain the differences in belief?
Yes, of course. We are all a product of our experiences.
I can't set it aside, because I have no reason to believe that the Qur'an is a forgery.
Who is saying that the Quran is a forgery? A better explantion is that it was poetic expressions from people who had nvery little factual and scientific approach to knowledge and life. I think it more rational to interpret the Bible, Quran, Mormon Bible, the Urantia book, etc. in a symbolic way rather than literal. There is no credible arguments or reasons to interpret these books literally given they make controdictory claims, and the supernatural claims are not based in fact.
If you can prove to me, beyond reasonable doubt that it is, I will discard my belief.
I don't think you are sincere since you have rejected bnrutally honest examinations of your breligious belief, yet still believe. And that on to of the fact you offer us no factual and rational basis for what you believe. This suests your beliefs are emotional, and satisfying to your reward system, and you are habituated.
I'm the same as you .. human .. and I evaluate and make conclusions, based on my experience and many other considerations.
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We are both human, but we are not using our human brain the same way. I use my reasoning centers when examining religious concepts. You are not. I have been exposed to religious ideas all my life, but I was willing to question these ideas because they did not resonate as true.
I know why I believe it.
..because, unlike you, I don't consider the Qur'an is a product of men.
The Quran has factual erros, and makes claims not consistent with fact, so why do you assume it was not from men?
The most likely expalanation is that it was written by humans, just as the Bible, the Bahai tezts, the Mormon Bible, the Urantia book, etc. We see no divine and miraculous effects from these books, and lots of errors.
It confirms the Bible, and explains the trinity, which never made much sense to me as a Christian.
The "mystery" became very clear.
It never occurred to you that the Quran was inspired by the Bible, and repeated some of its ideas?
Of course it is.
If the Bible and Qur'an did not exist, you could then claim there is no evidence.
It is just that you don't believe it .. you think it is fraud or delusion.
I assert that modern people making claims about holy books that are inconsistent with reality is irrational. Critical thinkers illustrate the best and most reliable approach to what the Quran and Bible are, and that is not what Christians and Muslims assume.
Christians and Muslim HAVE to assume their books are divine and true. If you did not, then you couldn't identify yourself as Muslim, or Christian. The religious identity is meaningless without tassuming the books are true, so what rational choice do you allow yourself as a Muslim? There is no freedom to consider anything beyond what you assume is true.
I agree .. but I might have moved to another state and discovered Islam.
Who knows?
You do. Whether your integrity as thinker will wholely examine why you believe what you do you will be limited by, and trapped within, your circular reasoning.
