Let’s talk about the Bible

[Oeste]

Every IF ever thought of since the beginning of time holds a total value of 0.

With all due respect KJW, that is simply not true. Don’t you test assertions before putting them out there?

If you touch this, you will burn your hand.

If you lie to me again, I will leave.

If you listen you will learn.

If x is true then y is untrue.

If y >=x, what is the value of x?

The value of IF in the arts, sciences, math, culture…everywhere there is creative thought… is immeasurable. Without "ifs" we lack inventiveness, strategy, and planning, as well as the capacity to perform critical analysis.

If = 0
action = 100%

Sorry KJW, but If doesn't equal zero.

It's not how you solve for x.

In any event I'm more interested in the knowledge contained within Daniel's scroll which you claim your Governing Board is revealing.

Can you tell us when and where they found it, how long its been in their possession, and where the scroll is now?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe You need to learn the difference between fact and claim, Yourself.

No, I'm good, but thanks for caring.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But that's not what the 1st century church believed, such as what we can even detect in Paul's writings that elevate Jesus well beyond what we see being referred to as a prophet. If one reads references to the prophets in the Tanakh, and then we compare them to references to Jesus in the NT and especially Paul's writings, there are significant differences. Even John 3:16 shows this. No prophet, including Moses, is ever referred to in these kind of terms.

Can you please show me some passages? I'm thinking of several that show otherwise: 1 Corinthians 11:1-3. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. These have not easily been twisted in translation, as others have.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

For those who are interested if the Divine Name was in the Greek Scriptures:

Jehovah

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Regarding Jesus stating that He and His Father were one "in the sense of unity" (and not a Trinity), Metis, you wrote:

But that's not what the 1st century church believed,

Really? If you read the prayer @ Acts of the Apostles 4:23-30, who were they praying to? Who is their "Sovereign Lord? Jesus? No, they were addressing the Father, the same One they worshipped as Jews. And they referred to Jesus as......God? No. They called Jesus, God's Servant.

No, they didn't view Jesus as God. (Peter's speech in Acts of the Apostles 2 provides further insights into their understanding.)

 

[metis]

For those who are interested if the Divine Name was in the Greek Scriptures:

Jehovah

Which is a mispronuciation, plus there are 17 different names, if my memory is correct, for God in Hebrew as found in the Tanakh.

 

[metis]

Can you please show me some passages? I'm thinking of several that show otherwise: 1 Corinthians 11:1-3. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. These have not easily been twisted in translation, as others have.

I really don't have the time to look them up right now, but there are a plenty. But, again, even John 3:16 is very different than anything we see written about a prophet. On top of that, we well know that the 1st century church equated Jesus as having a divine connection that goes well beyond anything said about any prophet.

Do I personally believe he is part of a trinity? No, as I'm pretty much an agnostic about this and many other things.

 

[metis]

No, they didn't view Jesus as God.

Yes and no, as has been explained.

 

[metis]

Can you please show me some passages? I'm thinking of several that show otherwise: 1 Corinthians 11:1-3. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. These have not easily been twisted in translation, as others have.

I found a bit of time, so:

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Philippians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

There's more, but this is the best I can do in a short period of time.

 

[kjw47]

@djhwoodwerks maybe you are the son of parents who choose censo

He got it! Why does the governing body believe that he should get two?
All authority (which if pictured is a CROWN) was given him before he ascended to Heaven. Then, you say he got another crown in the time of the end. Tell us, please, what is he going to do with two crowns? What's the other one for?

He was given authority in genesis--but did not get the crown until Rev 6

 

[kjw47]

@kjw47 what does the crown picture?

Jesus sitting on his throne --Gods kingdom rule taking full control of heaven--then he brings it to the earth at Har-mageddon.( some go by that kingdom rule now=FEW.)

 

[metis]

Jesus sitting on his throne

They gotta toilet in heaven?

 

[kjw47]

@kjw47 That the Watchtower shows kings with crowns proves that having been given a crown
does not prove Jesus rides at Revelation 6:2.
That your kind are making the governing body right about Revelation 6:2 proves to me that it is
governing body believers who are making them right and NOT Jehovah.

2 Timothy 3:13 I have zero doubt that this scripture warns against what you and they are doing.
13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.+

I understand that it is wrong to call you and the governing body members "evil", but if you will look up the word, it might mean; toiling for nothing good.

I know better--You are seeing like this-2Cor 4:4

 

[kjw47]

Sorry KJW, but If doesn't equal zero.

It's not how you solve for x.

In any event I'm more interested in the knowledge contained within Daniel's scroll which you claim your Governing Board is revealing.

Can you tell us when and where they found it, how long its been in their possession, and where the scroll is now?

The book of Daniel has been there all along--None knew the meaning for these last days until God willed--Not even his own angels knew- 1Peter 1:12)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I really don't have the time to look them up right now, but there are a plenty. But, again, even John 3:16 is very different than anything we see written about a prophet. On top of that, we well know that the 1st century church equated Jesus as having a divine connection that goes well beyond anything said about any prophet.

Do I personally believe he is part of a trinity? No, as I'm pretty much an agnostic about this and many other things.

I appreciate your response.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I found a bit of time, so:

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Philippians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

There's more, but this is the best I can do in a short period of time.

Thanks for taking the time!

The one phrase (in Philippians 2:6) you underlined is the only passage posted that might indicate Jesus is God. (That's why you underlined it, right? Lol). Most translations render that phrase, existing "in the form of God"; yes, Jesus existed as a spirit, which is God's form (John 4:24). But then he became flesh, as a human male.

I apologise if I've come across as antagonistic in my prior postings, that was not my intent.

There are a few other passages written by Paul that can be misconstrued, as in Hebrews. I would like to discuss all of them in their context one at a time, if you get the time. Would that be ok? We'd have to start a new thread, I guess?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They gotta toilet in heaven?

It does say he's on a White Cloud, also. (Isn't that a brand of TP?)

(Ok, no more impropriety from me.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Which is a mispronuciation, plus there are 17 different names, if my memory is correct, for God in Hebrew as found in the Tanakh.

Names, or titles?
Regarding Yahweh, or Jehovah in English, notice Exodus 3:15, on BibleHub:

Exodus 3:15

There are a few versions that say either Jehovah or Yahweh. It's His "Memorial-Name, throughout all generations." If I'm not mistaken, The Jerusalem Bible says it is "to be used throughout all generations"(?)

Addressing God as Yahweh is fine, but we don't speak Hebrew.

Bible translator J. B. Rotherham, in The Emphasised Bible, used the form Yahweh throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. However, later in his Studies in the Psalms he used the form “Jehovah.” He explained: “JEHOVAH—The employment of this English form of the Memorial name . . . in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahwéh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended.”—(London, 1911), p. 29.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Milton Platt]

Well written , good job.

Yes it is, and yet does not address the OP in any way.

Edit: well, maybe.....I was thinking it does nothing to establish the Bible as credible.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ​

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

The verse should be changed to "Heaven and Earth will pass away, and these words will pass away long before then."