Let’s talk about the Bible

[Jeremiah Ames]

I'm not aware of anyone who claims you did.

I am saying there are 3 Gods, if you have the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as separate Gods.



That's fine if it works for you but as a Trinitarian it would leave me uncomfortable because I wouldn't be able to reconcile such a belief with New Testament scripture.

7 “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
8They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? (Job 11)​

The only way I know of taking the mystery out of God is to create one in our own image like the pagans did. So while we would then have a God we completely understand it just wouldn't be the God as described by scripture.

I have yet to find any NT OR OT scripture that makes me uncomfortable thinking the Father is God, Jesus is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. I now realize why you said the thing about three gods. However, I don’t see it that way. So, I’m thinking we both agree on what God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit do for us as believers.


Also, describing God as a trinity IS an attempt to take the mystery away. It is an attempt to create someone’s idea about what God is. And yes, you’re right, that’s what the pagans did. I read an article where a guy was discussing the trinity. He said our human minds cannot grasp it. I agree. He went on to say that a person who makes himself the judge of what God can or cannot be is a blasphemer. I agree again. So why do people make themselves the judge of what God is by declaring Him to be a trinity? Link to the site:
The Trinity and You

You seem to be saying the same thing as me. So, I assume we agree. We just look at things differently. We both know what Jesus did for us. We both know how God carries us through this life. We both know our spirit is now alive and connected to God’s Spirit.
I know I don’t understand God. I don’t have to. I understand He is with me. I’m plenty comfortable knowing that. I’m sure you are too.
God bless.

 

[Oeste]

The book of Daniel has been there all along--None knew the meaning for these last days until God willed--Not even his own angels knew- 1Peter 1:12)

The book of Daniel was sealed until the last days?

Daniel Chapter 1

Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god. 3Then the king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family and of the nobility, 4youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.
​

Is it really your assertion that no one understood the above "sealed" passage until now?

Or are you claiming Daniel didn't follow God's instructions, sealing part of the book while revealing most of it?

Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[kjw47]

The book of Daniel was sealed until the last days?

Daniel Chapter 1

Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god. 3Then the king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family and of the nobility, 4youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.
​

Is it really your assertion that no one understood the above "sealed" passage until now?

Or are you claiming Daniel didn't follow God's instructions, sealing part of the book while revealing most of it?

Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

No it was the correlations between the book of Daniel and revelation no one could understand until in these last days.

 

[DavidFirth]

Yes it is, and yet does not address the OP in any way.

Edit: well, maybe.....I was thinking it does nothing to establish the Bible as credible.

I was thinking that your opinion is noted, however biased it may be.

 

[metis]

I apologise if I've come across as antagonistic in my prior postings, that was not my intent.

No worries, so thanks.

There are a few other passages written by Paul that can be misconstrued, as in Hebrews. I would like to discuss all of them in their context one at a time, if you get the time. Would that be ok? We'd have to start a new thread, I guess?

I honestly don't have the time, plus my main point is that, correctly or not, the early church believed in at least a vague concept of the trinity, although the evidence suggests that it was not well defined. No prophet is ever referred to in the terms we see in the NT in regards to Jesus, especially since they make it clear that they are relaying God's message, thus it is they themselves who are not the focus. But in the NT, Jesus is clearly the focus as salvation is not possible except through him. This concept is totally absent with the prophets themselves.

This issue kept on resurfacing in the early church, including with the 2nd century leaders and, again, the trinitarian concept keeps showing up. It's really not until the 3rd and 4th centuries where it becomes very contentious to the point whereas a more specific explanation is needed, thus the trinitarian concept became more elaborated on-- but only to a point.

When trying to define this concept, the CC sort of went back to the 1st century when they gradually began to refer to it as "the mystery of the trinity", iow, something that is beyond our comprehension. By taking that position, they obviously did not attempt to really be specific about this, thus more reflecting what the 1st century church tended to believe.

 

[metis]

Names, or titles?

The former: Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia

In synagogue services, we use some of these other names in worship.

Addressing God as Yahweh is fine, but we don't speak Hebrew.

Then there should be no problem accepting the name "God" as that also is a translation.

Take care, my cousin.

Ditto, and keep up the friendly posts.

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't think that was the church. It was Paul.
Which is why Christianity became so Greco-Roman. It isn't based on Jesus, it's based on Paul.
Or, to be more precise, the teachings of Jesus that the Apostles were safe sharing with Paul. Which is why Christianity has so much Greco-Roman pagan concepts like demi-gods and divine sacrifice/ Resurrection built into it.
Jesus would never have approved of all that. I am sure He is spinning in His grave over being deified by a Greek.
Tom

This doesn't make any sense. The historical or original "problem" that people had with Paul, was that they considered him a Judaizer, not a Romanizer, or whatever. Paul had more rules than the Jesus only crowd likes/liked, and they consider/considered the writings to be an influence in that direction.
Anti-Paulinists need to get their argument straight, because it is a hodge podge of conflicting ideas.

 

[JJ50]

I am of the opinion the Bible is a very human creation with no input from any god.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Then there should be no problem accepting the name "God" as that also is a translation.

In English, when you're able to put a definite or indefinite article in front of a noun in common usage, the noun is never a proper name. Since saying "the god" and "a god" is common usage, it is not a name. God is a title.

Besides, there are "many gods and many lords" (Philippians 2:5); we need to differentiate between them....especially in using the title "lord".

I hope you'll have a great day.

 

[metis]

Since saying "the god" and "a god" is common usage, it is not a name. God is a title.

But it can and is also used as a name. Obviously it's in reference to the same deity that Jews and Christians use, as well as some other faiths, so it is quite unnecessary to get hung up on this. It's not like any one name works like "Open Sesame" that then opens mysterious doors.

I hope you'll have a great day.

Same to you.

 

[Oeste]

No it was the correlations between the book of Daniel and revelation no one could understand until in these last days.

Daniel was ordered by God to shut up and seal the correlations between the book of Daniel and Revelation???

How can there be "correlations" between Daniel and a book that didn't exist yet?

Also, where did the Governing Board discover Daniel's book of "correlations", when did they discover it, how was it preserved, who unsealed it, who translated it, and why hasn't your Governing Board made copies available through the Watchtower?

 

[savagewind]

He was given authority in genesis--but did not get the crown until Rev 6

He got authority at Matthew 28:18.
18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+

 

[Hawkins]

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.

It only means that this kind of truth can only be brought forward by a religion. Humans are best informed this way, there's no other way round.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus sitting on his throne --Gods kingdom rule taking full control of heaven--then he brings it to the earth at Har-mageddon.( some go by that kingdom rule now=FEW.)

Matthew 28:18 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+

 

[savagewind]

I know better--You are seeing like this-2Cor 4:4

Excuse me? It is I who believe in a personal relationship with God and with Jesus Christ. I am a believer. You believe in the men who claim that they are believers. You are not a believer.
Psalms 146:3
2 Corinthians 4 Therefore, since we have this ministry through the mercy that was shown us, we do not give up. 2 But we have renounced the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with cunning or adulterating the word of God;+ but by making the truth manifest, we recommend ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God.+ 3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things*+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+might not shine through.+ 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,”+ and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them+ with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.

YOU are preaching yourselves. I am not!

 

[savagewind]

@kjw47 these three things.
1. having been given all authority
2. having been given a crown
3. sitting upon a throne

There is so much wrong with the Jehovah's Witness view.

If two thousand years ago Jesus was given all authority who gave him the crown
at this time of the end?

If the crown means he sits upon the throne now, how is he also riding?

Also, if the crown being given to him as pictured in Revelation 6:2 means he has finally sat
down on his throne in Heaven how is it different than him being given all authority
in Heaven and on the Earth and how can he come again to accomplish the will of God for
the Earth while he is sitting?

So, according to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus seems to be doing three things at the same time. He is a lamb opening scrolls. He is a rider on a horse. And, he is sitting down on
a throne.

Three? Hum. Interesting! Is the governing body underhandedly making you poor guys trust in the Trinity?

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses have three Jesuses. It is a fact.
While one of them is in Heaven opening the scrolls, one rides on Earth and the last one is sitting on a throne in Heaven? Is the throne which he sits on in Heaven?

 

[savagewind]

Even though the gospel of Jesus Christ never has him on a horse, the Jehovah's Witnesses put him on one.
If they can do that, maybe they are the ones giving him a [paper] crown.

Haha So, I am imagining Jesus with a bow. No arrows, though. I can see him knocking on doors
(Revelation 3:20) looking for his arrows.

 

[kjw47]

Daniel was ordered by God to shut up and seal the correlations between the book of Daniel and Revelation???

How can there be "correlations" between Daniel and a book that didn't exist yet?

Also, where did the Governing Board discover Daniel's book of "correlations", when did they discover it, how was it preserved, who unsealed it, who translated it, and why hasn't your Governing Board made copies available through the Watchtower?

God knew revelation would come. It was men who didn't know that. It was already in Daniel--
Like this--Dan 12:1--It is Michael who is standing up--you know him as Jesus.

 

[kjw47]

He got authority at Matthew 28:18.
18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+

It doesn't say-it started right then now does it--Rev 6--he receives his crown=1914