Let’s talk about the Bible

[columbus]

Unfortunately the Church mixed a number of pagan ideas and traditions into their doctrines and labeled them as christian.

I don't think that was the church. It was Paul.
Which is why Christianity became so Greco-Roman. It isn't based on Jesus, it's based on Paul.
Or, to be more precise, the teachings of Jesus that the Apostles were safe sharing with Paul. Which is why Christianity has so much Greco-Roman pagan concepts like demi-gods and divine sacrifice/ Resurrection built into it.
Jesus would never have approved of all that. I am sure He is spinning in His grave over being deified by a Greek.
Tom

 

[Vee]

I don't think that was the church. It was Paul.
Which is why Christianity became so Greco-Roman. It isn't based on Jesus, it's based on Paul.
Or, to be more precise, the teachings of Jesus that the Apostles were safe sharing with Paul.
Tom

What makes you think that? I never found anything in the Bible that would make me think Paul had anything to do with the doctrine of Trinity.
From my researches, what I learned was that the introduction of the trinity into the catholic church dates back to the 4th century.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia says the following “The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

 

[Vee]

Your religion claims that from the time of the last Apostle until the 1950's it was full of errors and had to be rewritten by your leaders to make it right.

It wasn't well preserved, all people had until your leaders came on scene was a Trinity error filled Bible that kept them in darkness.

That is not true.
You are entitled not to like my religion but that doesn't give you the right to make things up.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I don't doubt that this is true.

The ability of Christians to say such illogical things, and mean them, is why I don't take them seriously.
Tom

Read the Bible.
It's right there.
Tom

I read it.
It’s there.
You have no grasp what is there, and you never will..
Proverbs 23:9 tells me clearly what happens when I attempt to talk to you specifically, so I will stop.
Have a nice day.

 

[columbus]

I read it.
It’s there.
You have no grasp what is there, and you never will.
Proverbs 23:9 tells me clearly what happens when I attempt to talk to you specifically, so I will stop.
Have a nice day.

How Christian.
"I can't answer you, so I won't talk to you."
Tom

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I read it.
It’s there.
You have no grasp what is there, and you never will.
Proverbs 23:9 tells me clearly what happens when I attempt to talk to you specifically, ...

Proverbs 23:9 tells you to engage in arrogant ad hominem attack? Wow - my Hebrew is more rusty than I thought.

 

[metis]

There is no Trinity in the Bible and I never said there was. I don't believe in it myself.

Neither do I, but we know with certainty that it was the belief of the early church, and it shows up in Paul's writings but as an interpretation.

Unfortunately the Church mixed a number of pagan ideas and traditions into their doctrines and labeled them as christian. The concept of Trinity is one of them.

The trinitarian concept is not of pagan origin, nor was it ever explained or justified by using pagan sources. It's an interpretation.

 

[metis]

It isn't based on Jesus, it's based on Paul.

But when Jesus supposedly said that he and God were one, ...

 

[Repox]

You can conclude there are two Bibles. One, the OT, for God's chosen people. The other, the NT, for Anti-Semitic Christians and others who have rewritten Jewish holy books.

As for the Trinity, it is not found in the Bible, it was made up in support of "son of God" stories.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just more religious propaganda short on facts, trying to sell us something. No, thanks.

 

[columbus]

As for the Trinity, it is not found in the Bible, it was made up in support of "son of God" stories.

Which is fundamentally pagan.
God having children by human mothers is pagan. YHWH and Allah wouldn't ever do that.
And there is nothing in the Bible suggesting that Jesus thought so either. It's a pagan concept.
Tom

 

[Vee]

The trinitarian concept is not of pagan origin, nor was it ever explained or justified by using pagan sources. It's an interpretation.

It is an interpretation but surprisingly, there might be a pagan side to it as well.
The idea of divine being existing as trinities, or triads, is much older than the church. In ancient Sumeria they believed in the triad of Anu, Enil and Ea. The ancient Babylonians recognized the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god— as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity.
In the Puranas, an Indian text dating back more than 3000 years we find the triangle of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. In Egypt, the Hymn to Amun decreed that ‘No god came into being before him (Amun)’ and that ‘All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon and Adonis. The Phoenicians worshiped Ulomus, Ulosuros and Eliun. Rome worshiped Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto. In Germanic nations they were called Wodan, Thor and Fricco.
The arrangement of gods or goddesses in trinities is very old and likely influenced the doctrine created by the church more than 100 years after the death of Christ.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You can conclude there are two Bibles. One, the OT, for God's chosen people. The other, the NT, for Anti-Semitic Christians and others who have rewritten Jewish holy books.

That's uncalled for.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have no idea what you’re saying, but thanks.
Your mention of blood on the doorframe only verifies to me that God is the same throughout. Of course God needs them to perform that act. People are responsible for their destiny. It’s not Gods fault if they do not do what he asks.

God wouldn't need them. He already knows who they are. Why is it he commanded that life be destroyed in order that some may be spared his act of slaughtering children? And why did he slaughter innocent children in the first place? It makes no sense that god is powerful enough to do the things he did, but yet time and time again he had no problem spilling blood and taking lives, though in the case of Egypt he could have just as easily have "froze/paralyzed" the Egyptians long enough for the Jews to escape. Or even "blinded" the Egyptians to the Jews escaping. But, instead, he demanded life be taken before his plague of massacring children.
God consistently takes an approach that we used from the Stone Age and even still today, of taking the easy way out and using violence to resolve his issues. But it never really did much, except for leading to further violence. He never tried to actually address the issue of sin, but instead he got so caught up in his killing rampage that even his own son was killed in the process. How is it that we humans have produced books and studies concluding torture doesn't work to meet the desired ends, yet torture and death is Jehovah's preferred method of doing things?

 

[metis]

It is an interpretation but surprisingly, there might be a pagan side to it as well.

Please show us in any of the early church writings whereas they justified this belief in the trinity through "pagan" sources?

See, this is what your JW teachers dishonestly have taught you, so please go and read on your own what the reality is versus just blindly accepting their nonsense. No CC document of any type that I have ever studied shows any attempt by the CC to justify their belief in this manner. You don't accept the concept of the trinity, neither do I, but it does not have a "pagan" source.

IOW, please just don't believe what you're being taught to believe just because some leaders tell you to believe them. Do the homework or you'll likely get trapped into a false paradigm sooner or later.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I read it.
It’s there.
You have no grasp what is there, and you never will.
Proverbs 23:9 tells me clearly what happens when I attempt to talk to you specifically, so I will stop.
Have a nice day.

Perhaps you should read Matthew 5:22, because it says what those who say "thou fool" are in danger of.

 

[BilliardsBall]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ​

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

Part of the story includes Roman Catholic translations listing "great English translations of the scriptures" on their front pages--without mentioning how Rome martyred these translators!

Surely we will hear some eternal stories someday of Bible misuse and Bible suppression. God remains powerful!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You can't claim the Bible was "well preserved". Your religion claims that from the time of the last Apostle until the 1950's it was full of errors and had to be rewritten by your leaders to make it right.

It wasn't well preserved, all people had until your leaders came on scene was a Trinity error filled Bible that kept them in darkness.

The Bible might have been preserved, but it didn't do anyone any good with all the errors in it!

That is not true.

Not true? Then why did your leaders find it necessary to rewrite their own Bible?

 

[savagewind]

The concept of the Trinity is in the Bible. Before Jesus God was judge and savior. God does not change. Correct? Who now is judge and savior?

 

[savagewind]

The Bible did not escape the tinkering of men so therefore I can't believe that is has been protected by God.

Does anyone want to talk about why they believe God protects words but does not protect life?