Let the innocent children suffer

[McBell]

Testing for what? And where is this written? Your "idea" here is quite lame, exchanging the value of innocent life for a mere test. A test whose outcome an omniscient god would be well aware of, and thus necessarily pointless.

Assuming the test is for gods benefit....

 

[JayJayDee]

Assuming god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why do innocent children suffer? The most common responses I've heard are:

1. God works in mysterious way. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)​

Nah...no mystery. The Bible gives a clear explanation.

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything? (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

He gives us reasons for why he does everything.

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

No suffering is good, but sometimes we suffer because there is healing after the suffering and the part that hurts the most is the part that fixes the damage.

Have we ever allowed our child to undergo painful surgery to fix something that was causing them to suffer? Were we not adding to the suffering in order to fix what was wrong, so the suffering could end? This is what God is doing.
​

Whatever the case, as I point out, these responses imply that children suffer for a very good reason.

If children suffered in isolation...then that would be wrong...but if children suffer along with their adult parents as a consequence of living in this world, then all humanity suffers for the same reason, regardlesss of age. Understanding the reason is vital in seeing what the solution is.

However, if this is the case does anyone have the right to step into god's plan and alleviate the suffering? Should we be bringing children to doctors and hospitals to stop the suffering? If so, then where do we draw the line between trying to stop such suffering, and going along with god's plan to let children suffer? And, should we even care about the millions that suffered and died in WWII concentration camps?

Since the human race as a collective suffer together, (some obviously more than others) there has to be a solution in God's plan to alleviate the suffering of all. Do we imagine that God is unaware of our suffering? Do we think he doesn't care?

If we are God's children, then when we suffer, he suffers. So why does he allow it?

When the devil deceived humans into serving his interests instead of God's, the Creator stepped out of the picture to give satan a free hand to show him and the humans he misled, what kind of god satan really was. All suffering is caused by the devil's rulership and mismanagement of the earth. If God intervened, then humans would not experience first hand all the consequences of their choices. Like Job, any faithful ones will be put to the test and tried to the limit...their children, right along with them. In the Roman arenas, children of the Christians were torn apart by wild animals along with their parents. Under other rulership a, the children also suffered along with their parents.

When the wicked were punished, (as in Noah's day) the children were penalized as well. Why? Who would take care of all these children if God simply struck down their wicked parents. Exposed to wickedness at that level, children will naturally adopt the ways of their role models. Look at the children in Sodom who joined the adults in wanting to sexually abuse the angels sent to rescue Lot.

When Jesus taught us to pray the Lord's Prayer, he told us what we should be praying for, so that all suffering would end permanently. How many people have prayed that prayer without understanding what it means?

God's name has been dragged through the mud by the devil. He has placed all the blame for the conditions on earth at God's feet, when it is the devil who is responsible for all of it. So first of all, God's name has to be sanctified (or hallowed)....cleared of all reproach.

Then Jesus said "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". What was he asking for here?
What is the kingdom that will "come" so that God's will can "be done on earth, as it is in heaven"?

In the garden of Eden, God indicated that a saviour would come into the world to "break up the works of the devil". He announced that the serpent's head would be crushed by the seed he would send into the world. The savior has come and gone suffering a glancing "heel" wound, but the crushing of the serpent's head has not yet taken place.

The time that it has taken can only be understood in the timeframe of timeless beings. Spirit creatures are not confined to time dictated by the earth's rotation....only humans are subject to that. Peter indicated the timeframe in which heavenly beings operate when he said in 2 Peter 3:8...."But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." (NASB)

If one thousand years to us is like a day to God, then any wonder things are taking so long!

We have the assurance of Revelation 21:1-5 that God will restore his first purpose to mankind. He will bring back the conditions that Adam and his wife lost due to their disobedience. There will be no ageing, sickness, suffering or death, because "the former things have passed away. Every last vestige of satan's rulership over this earth will be eliminated by the coming of God's Kingdom. The devil's rulership in the hands of corrupt humans will be finished. (Dan 2:44)

Jesus will then get busy bringing back to life all who have died....both the "righteous and the unrighteousness"....including all their children. (John 5:28, 29)

With the legal precedents set by God's permission of evil, no rebel in either heaven or on earth can ever challenge God's sovereignty again. No devil will ever rear his head in opposition to God's purpose for the earth or indeed the universe ever again. The operation was painful but the recovery will be eternal.

 

[JoStories]

Assuming god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why do innocent children suffer? The most common responses I've heard are:

1. God works in mysterious way. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything? (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)
​

Whatever the case, as I point out, these responses imply that children suffer for a very good reason. However, if this is the case does anyone have the right to step into god's plan and alleviate the suffering? Should we be bringing children to doctors and hospitals to stop the suffering? If so, then where do we draw the line between trying to stop such suffering, and going along with god's plan to let children suffer? And, should we even care about the millions that suffered and died in WWII concentration camps?

In my belief, of course one should take children to the doctor, etc. But I also believe that any childhood 'suffering' that one endures is meant to be a lesson. IE: My being raped by my grandfather. Its hard to watch children suffering, and as a nurse, it was even more difficult for me as I am not only compassionate but empathetic as well. But I remember that there is a lesson there. And as for the children of the camps and WW2, of course we should care. But do you dismiss the worldwide lesson that we learned of that? How genocide and racism are abysmal and should be fought tooth and nail? Also, IMO, God has nothing to do with this suffering. This is of our own making..and I am Buddhist, just so you understand this from my POV.

 

[JoStories]

That evil doesn't exist in your views is beside the point. The fact remains that Christians, at least some if not most, believe:

1. God works in mysterious way. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything? (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)
​

And it's in this context that I raise the issue .

Just because Christians believe this does not make it the end all be all for everyone. Not everyone view God in the same way. You are only asking because, IMO, Christianity paints God in a very negative light. IE: The suffering of children. What if Christians are wrong and the question is moot?

 

[JoStories]

Who determines if a child is innocent?

A very excellent point and question. I've seen children as young as 8 who have, IMO, no soul. They are the budding serial killers of our future. Are they innocent? Perhaps, before they parents, etc, did whatever they did to kill this child's soul.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Testing for what? And where is this written? Your "idea" here is quite lame, exchanging the value of innocent life for a mere test. A test whose outcome an omniscient god would be well aware of, and thus necessarily pointless.

Excuse me for living. YOU asked for feedback; I gave it to you. You are welcome to ignore it; being rude is not called for.

What is this Good Reason for Suffering that we can't question God about? Perhaps the sadistic ******* has set up a test of our free will by making us have to respond in the right way to our suffering to make it go away--and the handful of people who do respond in the right way earn salvation, and the rest of us burn.

You are the one who has posted yet another version of "Gee, the Christian God is Evil, will everyone please agree?", not me. I'm not a Christian, just was offering up an idea that a minister friend and I had discussed some years back. Lame? Perhaps. But no more lame than most of the other propositions that are thrown about by people trying to give meaning to things.

Have a nice life. I won't be responding to any of your threads in the future.

 

[Quintessence]

Good point; under most versions of Christianity, all humans are sinners--therefore not innocent--from conception, due to the actions of the original humans.

I'm glad I don't have to try to figure out these paradoxes that Christianity has gotten itself into...

That wasn't precisely what I was aiming to get at, but that's certainly one interpretation of merit. I was moreso thinking that one way or another, it is the one-god that makes this determination, not humans. The answer to the question of "why does the one-god make 'innocent' children suffer" is that it is not up to humans to judge who is and is not innocent. Further, we have no way of knowing who or what the one-god judges as 'innocent' and 'not innocent.' Basically, the entire thing amounts to a bunch of whining on the part of humans that they can't comprehend the machinations of a deliberately incomprehensible, ineffable, and abstract god-concept.

The next step in that line of thinking is to ask what the broader implications of the story or the teaching are. We can ask, for example, if this is meant to simply convey the "harsh" nature of reality. We can ask whether or not the one-god is intended to serve as a model (or counter-model) for human ethics. We can ask what it's implications are for salvation, which seems to me, is really the main point and thrust of this idea in the Christian religion: suffering exists, accept Jesus and be saved.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I have generalized the religionist response to these types questions over the years and I'll summarize those below:

1. God works in mysterious ways.

"This question is hard - I don't want to think about it!"

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything?

"I wonder about the same thing sometimes, but questioning my beliefs is scary so I don't think about it too much!"
**This is usually followed by repeating over and over that "God is real - God is real - God is real, etc."

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it.

"I've totally bought in and don't realize how crazy this statement really is."
**Smug grin

 

[Quintessence]

I have generalized the religionist response to these types questions over the years and I'll summarize those below:


"This question is hard - I don't want to think about it!"


"I wonder about the same thing sometimes, but questioning my beliefs is scary so I don't think about it too much!"
**This is usually followed by repeating over and over that "God is real - God is real - God is real, etc."


"I've totally bought in and don't realize how crazy this statement really is."
**Smug grin

Translation: because I don't understand how this works or because I disagree with it, I'm going to mock and belittle religionists to feel all intellectually superior and make religionists out to be simple-minded morons.

(whether you intended that post to come across that way or not, I'm sorry, but that's how it reads.)

 

[jojom]

Nah...no mystery. The Bible gives a clear explanation.

And that would be?

He gives us reasons for why he does everything.

It isn't that he may not give us a reason, but that it's a questionable one. Please reread the excuse. In any case I await his reason, and it better be a good one.

No suffering is good,

THANK YOU. At least you recognize god's continued approval of evil.

but sometimes we suffer because there is healing after the suffering and the part that hurts the most is the part that fixes the damage.

Good grief! Do you actually believe this?

Have we ever allowed our child to undergo painful surgery to fix something that was causing them to suffer? Were we not adding to the suffering in order to fix what was wrong, so the suffering could end? This is what God is doing.

Might want to rethink this crazy remark, because as it stands it's ludicrous.

​

If children suffered in isolation...then that would be wrong...but if children suffer along with their adult parents as a consequence of living in this world, then all humanity suffers for the same reason, regardlesss of age. Understanding the reason is vital in seeing what the solution is.

Aside from the fact that some children have actually suffered in isolation (concentration camps come to mind) letting children suffer so as to to affect some good is barbaric. It denotes a god unable to achieve such an end without putting people in pain. Certainly not an omnipotent god.

Since the human race as a collective suffer together, (some obviously more than others) there has to be a solution in God's plan to alleviate the suffering of all. Do we imagine that God is unaware of our suffering? Do we think he doesn't care?

I just love it when I hear people concoct the workings of god's mind driven solely by their apologetics.

If we are God's children, then when we suffer, he suffers.

Nice bit of equivocation, but just another ridiculous concoction designed to save god from condemnation. It doesn't work, no matter how grand it may sound.

So why does he allow it?

Oh good, another privileged look into the workings of god's mind.

When the devil deceived humans into serving his interests instead of God's, the Creator stepped out of the picture to give satan a free hand to show him and the humans he misled, what kind of god satan really was. All suffering is caused by the devil's rulership and mismanagement of the earth. If God intervened, then humans would not experience first hand all the consequences of their choices. Like Job, any faithful ones will be put to the test and tried to the limit...their children, right along with them. In the Roman arenas, children of the Christians were torn apart by wild animals along with their parents. Under other rulership a, the children also suffered along with their parents.

When the wicked were punished, (as in Noah's day) the children were penalized as well. Why? Who would take care of all these children if God simply struck down their wicked parents. Exposed to wickedness at that level, children will naturally adopt the ways of their role models. Look at the children in Sodom who joined the adults in wanting to sexually abuse the angels sent to rescue Lot.

Flows off your tongue just as if it was true. But I have to say, you do have a gift for it.

When Jesus taught us to pray the Lord's Prayer, he told us what we should be praying for, so that all suffering would end permanently.

So, what's he waiting for, hell to freeze over? In the meantime children have died suffering.

 

[jojom]

In my belief, of course one should take children to the doctor, etc. But I also believe that any childhood 'suffering' that one endures is meant to be a lesson. IE: My being raped by my grandfather. Its hard to watch children suffering, and as a nurse, it was even more difficult for me as I am not only compassionate but empathetic as well. But I remember that there is a lesson there. And as for the children of the camps and WW2, of course we should care. But do you dismiss the worldwide lesson that we learned of that? How genocide and racism are abysmal and should be fought tooth and nail? Also, IMO, God has nothing to do with this suffering. This is of our own making..and I am Buddhist, just so you understand this from my POV.

And what lesson is that, that genocide and racism are abysmal and should be fought tooth and nail? Believe it or not, almost all people of the world already believe this. So the "lesson" was extreme overkill.

 

[jojom]

Just because Christians believe this does not make it the end all be all for everyone. Not everyone view God in the same way. You are only asking because, IMO, Christianity paints God in a very negative light. IE: The suffering of children. What if Christians are wrong and the question is moot?

But according to their theology they are not, and this is what I'm addressing.

 

[jojom]

Excuse me for living. YOU asked for feedback; I gave it to you. You are welcome to ignore it; being rude is not called for.

Evidently you're unable to take criticism of your remarks unless it's positive. This is a debate forum, not a convivial convention of like-minded pals. That you take offense at having your comment described as "lame," actually quite mild criticism, is unfortunate. Perhaps you shouldn't participate in debate threads if this is the depth of your tolerance.

Have a nice life. I won't be responding to any of your threads in the future.

I think that's best for you. Have a good day.

 

[jojom]

I have generalized the religionist response to these types questions over the years and I'll summarize those below:


"This question is hard - I don't want to think about it!"


"I wonder about the same thing sometimes, but questioning my beliefs is scary so I don't think about it too much!"
**This is usually followed by repeating over and over that "God is real - God is real - God is real, etc."


"I've totally bought in and don't realize how crazy this statement really is."
**Smug grin

Gotta say, they're pretty much on target.

 

[Valjean]

Assuming god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why do innocent children suffer? The most common responses I've heard are:

1. God works in mysterious way. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything? (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)​

Panglossian poppycock!

Don't the scriptures dictate loving our neighbors and doing unto others as we'd have done to ourselves? Aren't we our brother's keepers?
It's our social responsibility to minimise suffering and promote prosperity. The most effective approach, I think, would be to eliminate the causes of this suffering whilst dealing with individual situations ad hoc.
​

 

[bobhikes]

​

Whatever the case, as I point out, these responses imply that children suffer for a very good reason. However, if this is the case does anyone have the right to step into god's plan and alleviate the suffering? Should we be bringing children to doctors and hospitals to stop the suffering? If so, then where do we draw the line between trying to stop such suffering, and going along with god's plan to let children suffer? And, should we even care about the millions that suffered and died in WWII concentration camps?

If there is a God than you should follow the plan that said God gives you. If you're supposed to help, help.

It is far worse if there is not a God because that means that we allow it. Our callousness allows for children and others to suffer, just so we don't have to get involved. Our lives our more important than others.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Assuming god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why do innocent children suffer? The most common responses I've heard are:

1. God works in mysterious way. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

2. Who are we to question god's reasons for doing anything? (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)

3. What appears to us to be bad is really for the better. We are just incapable of seeing it. (Implication: children suffer for good reason.)
​

Whatever the case, as I point out, these responses imply that children suffer for a very good reason. However, if this is the case does anyone have the right to step into god's plan and alleviate the suffering? Should we be bringing children to doctors and hospitals to stop the suffering? If so, then where do we draw the line between trying to stop such suffering, and going along with god's plan to let children suffer? And, should we even care about the millions that suffered and died in WWII concentration camps?

There is no good without bad, anymore than you can have left without right- the concepts are literally defined by each other

The best way to be good is learning, to know evil when we see it and reject it, e.g. The German socialist party (aka NAZIs) of WWII, it's for us to stop that ideology coming to power again.

 

[JayJayDee]

Flows off your tongue just as if it was true. But I have to say, you do have a gift for it.

So, what's he waiting for, hell to freeze over? In the meantime children have died suffering.

You asked the questions...I provided the Bible's reasonable answers. Is it only answers that agree with your own view that you invited? Perhaps you should have specified that in the OP......only those who share your negative and sceptical view of God need respond.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Why little children? Why not adult suffering? Why not the suffering of animals and plants? There is no difference. The laws of nature allow suffering. It is a part of life. Epicurus suffered his whole life from physical ailments yet he retained his love for the same life that tortured him. Simply because he understood.

 

[jojom]

If there is a God than you should follow the plan that said God gives you.

What plan is that?

If you're supposed to help, help.

It would be nice if that's how it worked. Trouble is, far too often we're unable to stop the suffering.

It is far worse if there is not a God because that means that we allow it.

????? What we usually do is to mitigate the suffering the best we can, god or no god.

Our callousness allows for children and others to suffer, just so we don't have to get involved. Our lives our more important than others.

You've got to be kidding.