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Let them eat cake - the World revolves around Me!

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Hm, the universe doesn't revolve around me. but that might be better.

Though all that centrifugal force would probably not be good for my tummy.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Personally I think solipsism is a pretty sound concept... I alone exist. However even with solipsism, all other things DO exist - though perhaps only as an extension of myself.

I would point out though nnmartin, that your view reflects a much more egocentric or individualistic, western cultural construct than is prevalent in many areas of the world, the perception that it holds true in other societies is a case of mistaken ethnocentric projection of the values of your own society.... in eastern countries for example, the importance of collective values and behaviours are far more important than in western countries, there is also less emphasis on the individual (whether it be their rights or responsibilities) as opposed to the group and the society.

There is a great deal individualistic societies can learn from collective societies in terms of working for the common good; while collective societies can learn a great deal from individualistic societies about the importance of individual liberty and culpability.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
a mix of the two is needed for sure.

anyone know much about Venezuela and Chavez - could be interesting?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
In the old days people calling themselves Christians raped, pillaged, mutilated and kidnapped. American soldiers still kill sleeping villagers and the oil companies have been known to hire murderers to kill South American Indians because their tribal lands are sitting atop black gold.

Seems my words have no good place in your agenda. I appreciate your honesty when it comes to discrediting anyone who sticks up for the oppressed.

I'd appreciate a little intellectual honesty from you.

Here's what I said:

In the old days, the warriors also went out and raped and pillaged and mutilated and kidnapped.

I'm not singling out Native Americans - just using your example to point out that cultures aren't defined simplistically - or rather, when they are, the definitions are incomplete, inaccurate, and frankly unfair to individuals.

Of course there are all manner of abuses and civil rights violations by all sorts of individuals - and our shared history is full of examples of heroism and horror, from Native Americans AND settlers, oil companies and unions and crazy individuals as well.

That was my VERY CLEAR point.

But as long as those like you can have their gentry lifestyles, why should they care about the little people ?

Wow. You can't restrain yourself from making every discussion between us into a series of personal insults, can you? Just stick to the topic, will ya?

Would it not be better If I agreed with everything you say just so we can be friends ? Sorry, but that goes against my particular code of morals.

Personally I'd rather live in a poverty ridden tent city than accept anything you're pushing.

See, there you go again. Amazing.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I heard that in some places , the tax bands favored the rich.

something like those earning over a certain amount paid a lower rate then a regular earner?

where I live now there is only a sales tax - great for the rich!

In the US, we have a progressive taxation system. The more money you make, the higher your tax bracket.

The reason why occasionally a wealthy person may actually pay in at a lower rate than someone else is because they are using tax loopholes to offset their income - write offs in other words. This reduces their reported income and can reduce their taxes. Deductions in other words. Deductions are also what people use to get a tax refund that is more than they paid in.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
In the US, we have a progressive taxation system. The more money you make, the higher your tax bracket.

The reason why occasionally a wealthy person may actually pay in at a lower rate than someone else is because they are using tax loopholes to offset their income - write offs in other words. This reduces their reported income and can reduce their taxes. Deductions in other words. Deductions are also what people use to get a tax refund that is more than they paid in.
Not to mention that the rich can shuttle money around into areas that they have helped make tax free or nearly so. Such as "capitol gains" and other tax shelters.

*edit: I should point out that it's these loopholes that most people are protesting... along with the general corruption of letting Wall Street play so fast and loose with the economy with no consequence.

wa:do
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not to mention that the rich can shuttle money around into areas that they have helped make tax free or nearly so. Such as "capitol gains" and other tax shelters.
Just a slight correction here......the nominal capital gains tax rate is lower than for other income, but one often pays this tax on phantom gain.
This is gain due to the Fed's lowering the value of currency (aka "inflation"). Example: If inflation is 7%, after 10 years the value of money is 1/2.
And some of the gain due to recaptured depreciation is taxed at a higher rate. This ridiculous system punishes some & rewards others in a rather
capricious fashion.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
It isn't so much that the tax rate is less for the extremely wealthy, but more because they have accountants who can find loopholes in order that less of their money is actually taxed.
My husband is always telling me "It's the rich who make the jobs" and "if you tax the rich too much, they will leave and take their jobs with them". It doesn't do any good to tell him that not everyone super wealthy is going to create jobs- actors, singers, etc. aren't going to create jobs- unless they want someone to cook their food or clean their house(s). ;)

But I don't resent them by any means. I am happy with what I have- it isn't much compared to other Americans but it is a goldmine compared to the starving in other countries.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Just a slight correction here......the nominal capital gains tax rate is lower than for other income, but one often pays this tax on phantom gain.
This is gain due to the Fed's lowering the value of currency (aka "inflation"). Example: If inflation is 7%, after 10 years the value of money is 1/2.
And some of the gain due to recaptured depreciation is taxed at a higher rate. This ridiculous system punishes some & rewards others in a rather
capricious fashion.
Thanks for that....
I think that we can all agree that the system is ridiculous and needs to be changed. But that the politicians have neither the will or moral conviction to see it done.

wa:do
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
make the rich work for minimum wage at Macdonalds and then ask them how much 'fun' their jobs are.
I used to work two forty hour minimum wage jobs Martin. I still work 80 hours a week many times. I make more because I want more. Young folks think they should have what others have who worked a life time to achieve what they have.

You start at the bottom and scratch your way to the top. If the road is too long and hard for you, eat some cake dude.

Many people are not even worth minimum wage.

People act like it is their right to be stupid and lazy and deserve what others have.

Your sense of entitlement is your downfall brother.

I could walk into the woods naked and with nothing and live like a king.

Let me clue you in on some wisdom. Worry not what you or others have. Learn to be happy with what you got. Happiness is not about material things. Some of the most miserable people I know are rich.

If you have your health and a sound mind, you are better off than many.

If you cannot stand working for others, make your own way in this world.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Not to mention that the rich can shuttle money around into areas that they have helped make tax free or nearly so. Such as "capitol gains" and other tax shelters.

*edit: I should point out that it's these loopholes that most people are protesting... along with the general corruption of letting Wall Street play so fast and loose with the economy with no consequence.

wa:do

I am totally - TOTALLY - in favor of simplifying our tax system and getting rid of loopholes and deductions - in any tax bracket by the way - which can be misused and abused.

I say this at my own expense by the way. Though my husband and I are already in the top tax bracket, I would pay more if some of these tax deductions were done away with.

But so would everyone else who is using those tax deductions. That's fair. After all, we already pay a higher percentage of our income than nearly everyone else does.

By the way, as I stated before, I am in favor of a progressive taxation system, with a very low percentage being applied to lower incomes, and progressing upward for higher incomes. We do already have that in place in the US by the way.

The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (Japan's in .2 percent higher). The US tops out at 35% for individuals. The following countries have a higher upper tax bracket:

Gibralter - 40%
South Korea - 38%
Ireland - 41%
Chile - 40%
Croatia - 40%
UK - 50%
Netherlands - 52%
Greece - 45%
Israel - 45%
Austria - 50%
Portugal - 40%
Senegal - 50%
China - 45%
Denmark -55.4%
Spain - 52%
Finland - 51%
Sweden - 57%
Norway - 48%
Luxembourg - 39%
Germany - 45%
Cuba - 50%
Australia - 45%
Thailand - 37%
Italy - 43%
France - 40%

I may have missed the last couple of countries by the way - I hit the wrong button on my computer when I was nearly done and accidently exited the tab! Here's the link:
List of countries by tax rates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interesting article with good graphics:
Personal Income Tax Rates | Global Finance
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Our corporate tax rate is high, but our loopholes and deductions for businesses are higher.

Thirty of the 280 Fortune 500 companies studied paid zero in federal income taxes or enjoyed tax rebates in 2008, 2009 and 2010, according to the study by the left-leaning Citizens for Tax Justice, a Washington-based nonprofit research and advocacy group, and the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a nonprofit, nonpartisan research group.
And 78 of the 280 companies paid nothing in federal income taxes or enjoyed a tax rebate in at least one of those years. Those 78 companies, including General Electric Co. (US:GE) and Pepco Holdings Inc. (US:pOM), earned a total of $156 billion in pretax U.S. profits in the years they paid no income tax, yet received so many tax breaks that they reported negative taxes — a total of negative $22 billion, the study said.
Big profits, zero taxes for large U.S. companies - MarketWatch


wa:do
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I am the Center of the Universe.

I am the only one that matters.

I am more important than you.

This is how we have all been indoctrinated and conditioned in recent years. Money, status, power and ego above all else.

Individualism, achievement, being a success, competing and fulfilling one's potential are all just euphemisms to sanitise our selfish desires and narcissism.

If you have the money then get someone else to do your chores, sleep with you, work for you, and then throw them a few crumbs and pat yourself on the back.

If it looks good and makes money then that's all that matters - to hell with the consequences.

Act like a whore, thug, Lord, Lady or princess - who cares if you can get away with it because success is all that matters.

Throw a few crumbs to those undeserving poor folk - they are poor because they deserve to be.

Let them eat cake!

This is how a narcissist rants.

I could do it much, much better.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
a mix of the two is needed for sure.

anyone know much about Venezuela and Chavez - could be interesting?

Do I know about him?

You mean the guy who thinks U.S has founhd out a way to give people cancer and said that they gave it to him because he opposes them?

Not role model material if you ask me.
 

Nashitheki

Hollawitta
a mix of the two is needed for sure.

anyone know much about Venezuela and Chavez - could be interesting?

He seems a good hearted person to me, but I do not think the right wing moral majority is fond of this man.

From the Huffington Post -

Native American journalist Jodi Lee Rave of Lee Enterprise Newspapers was recently lambasted in a letter to the editor to our local daily for having the temerity to laud the donation of funds for heating fuel for the very poor Indian nations of the Northern Plains.

The criticism was initiated by the fact that the donor was the Citgo Petroleum Corporation based in Houston, Texas and headed by the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, the man reviled by many Americans for referring to President George W. Bush on the floor of the United Nations as the "Devil."
How did it happen that the President of Venezuela reached out to help the poor and the indigenous people of the United States? After two major hurricanes devastated the Southern U. S., a group of U. S. Senators sent out a plea to the major oil companies to help low-income families with energy assistance. Most major oil companies were coming off of scandalous profits because of the sharp rise in fuel costs. Only one company heeded the plea of the senators and that was Citgo Petroleum Corporation headed by Chavez.
Federal and state funding for low-income energy assistance programs has dropped dramatically in the past few years. A late winter blast in the Northern Plains hit at a time when most of the federal dollars for low-income energy assistance had run out. The late winter freeze left many indigenous people in dire straits. When it comes to a matter of surviving, Indians and other impoverished people reach out to any assistance available. Olympic Gold Medallist Billy Mills, an Oglala Lakota, used his non-profit Running Strong Foundation to raise energy funds for some low-income households, but even his generosity could not fill the need.
Many tribes in Montana and North and South Dakota were advised to attend a meeting in Polson, Montana on December 13, 2006 to listen and discuss how they could avail themselves of the money for heating assistance. Rafael Gomez, Vice President of Citgo, and Brian O'Connor of the Citizens Energy Corporation of Boston attended the meeting. O'Connor's non-profit organization administered the program last year and would be charged with administering the program for the Indian tribes.
Although major oil corporations like Exxon had reaped more profit last year than at any time in their history, they declined the invitation to lend a helping hand to the poor people of America. Hugo Chavez stepped in to fill the gap. What motives would prompt him to do this? Certainly it would not help him politically, at least not in America where one of this Nation's top religious figures, Pat Robertson, called for his assassination.
Some of the very poor Indian tribes like the Chippewa Cree of the Rocky Boy Reservation in Montana, the Cheyenne River and the Oglala Sioux Tribes in South Dakota needed the funds in order to keep their people from freezing to death and accepted the donation from Mr. Chavez willingly. Where was the rich casino owning tribes? Busy counting their money I would guess.
There is an old saying out here that goes, "You will know me better when you walk a mile in my moccasins." Hugo Chavez is a member of an indigenous tribe in Venezuela. He has been called "Indio" and worse while growing up as the child of very poor parents. He has walked in the moccasins of the indigenous people.
In America it is very easy to hate someone who verbally attacks the president of the United States. Chavez has never held his tongue even amongst his own people or in criticizing other nations in South America. I am told that he was appalled when the major oil companies in America did not step forward to help their own poor and low-income people when called upon to do so. He saw this as the kind of colonialism he has grown to despise.
Chavez is not alone in his mistrust of America. In fact, America's status is at an all-time low in many Central and South American countries. Chavez did not create this situation and he is not above using it as a tool to annoy Bush and his administration.
Hugo Chavez is a controversial figure to America, especially amongst its politicians. But he has done much to improve the living conditions, the health care and the educational opportunities for his own people in Venezuela, especially for the very poor and the indigenous. As a matter of record Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani's law firm lobbies for Citgo Petroleum Corporation. Does he keep his fingers crossed behind his back when he attacks Chavez?
However, if the profit mongering oil companies of this Nation had stepped forward when called upon, there would have been no reason for Chavez and Citgo to step up.
There is a lot of respect for President Chavez among the Indian nations of this country. He didn't make promises that he couldn't or wouldn't keep, but instead put his money where his mouth is. American Indians appreciate that form of directness.
Go to some of the blogs so prevalent in America and you will find all sorts of names for President Bush and most of them are considerably worse than "Devil." Chimp and Chimpy are two that come to mind. But, I suppose most Americans feel it is their inherent right to speak out against their president, but they would damn to hell any outsider that does likewise.
Jodi Lee Rave didn't think of the politics of the low-income energy assistance offered by Chavez. Instead, she thought of the people that would have suffered unnecessarily if Citgo had not been willing to do what the American petroleum companies and the United States government refused to do. She didn't have to read about the plight of the indigenous people of America to understand it because like Hugo Chavez and me, she has lived it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-giago/hugo-chavez-steps-up-for-_b_43630.html
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
In the US, we have a progressive taxation system. The more money you make, the higher your tax bracket.

The reason why occasionally a wealthy person may actually pay in at a lower rate than someone else is because they are using tax loopholes to offset their income - write offs in other words. This reduces their reported income and can reduce their taxes. Deductions in other words. Deductions are also what people use to get a tax refund that is more than they paid in.

so why do these loopholes exist in the first place?

surely they should be closed down.

but it seems that they are there in order to benefit the rich.

ie: the same thing as having a system whereby you can legally pay less tax the more you earn.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
He seems a good hearted person to me, but I do not think the right wing moral majority is fond of this man.
........
he didn't have to read about the plight of the indigenous people of America to understand it because like Hugo Chavez and me, she has lived it.

Tim Giago: Hugo Chavez Steps Up for Native Americans and the Poor

ok, great - I think I'll do some more research on Chavez.

The only personal link I've had with him is from a rich Venezuelan woman I knew. Her husband was an oil worker and they had to leave the country as they could not earn their untold riches there. Now she lives in Thailand with many servants (there are oilfields there)

naturally they hated Chavez and blamed him for everything.

no surprises there!:rolleyes:
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
so why do these loopholes exist in the first place?

surely they should be closed down.

but it seems that they are there in order to benefit the rich.

ie: the same thing as having a system whereby you can legally pay less tax the more you earn.

I agree, which is why I am for a progressive tax system that is simplified.

The sort of tax system that I would support, however, would mandate that EVERYONE (except for the destitute) would pay some set percentage of their income in income taxes. No one except the most unable to help themselves should get a free ride - or get a "refund" that is MORE than they actually paid IN in taxes.

It could be a small percentage - hell, they could even break even and pay no income tax and yet not receive a refund.

But ownership in something makes a difference. As it stands right now, only about 50 percent of Americans who are taxable actually pay federal income taxes.
 
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