I largely agree. But I fail to see how such an idea can be promoted without a degree of challenge of certain religious expectations.
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Let's celebrate the beauty of all Faiths
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
That is right..
There ARE enough resources to go around, which leaves B
How can we change the distribution of wealth? Islam can do that
That is just not always true, and certainly not all that often true in specific geographic and historical environments.
How can we change the distribution of wealth? Islam can do that
Evidence?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
The world is increasingly becoming more global .. speed of communications, travel etc.
Hence, I was talking in a global sense..
Mainly by abolishing the greed which the global financial markets are driven by ie. usury
If anything, that makes the matter that much more of a real challenge and worry.
That is a matter worth considering, certainly. So you see Islam as conducive to that? Would you perhaps feel like elaborating on why and how?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
The why is fairly easy .. the global usurious financial system creates inequality. The poor nations need to borrow often large sums of money .. by insisting on interest payments, they become more in debt which causes instability.
The financial system will not change until the people in the world change. We can observe that nearly all nations, whether predominately muslim or non-muslim are involved.
So .. it will not happen until the world changes .. I believe that it will happen only after Almighty God intervenes. He will do this as we wil be on the brink of total anihilation.
Simply .. He will send Jesus, son of Mary
ie. the messiah will appear, and eventually there will follow a time in which ALL nations of the earth will be prosperous .. there will be no usury
You know, I have heard of Muslim banks. I wonder if you would like to tell us a bit about them. I sure could afford to learn more about the matter.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
In brief, a standard western-style mortgage is a loan with interest (apr .. annual percentage interest)
.. whereas an islamic loan is more like a rent-buy scheme
..so, some people just say "don't call it interest, call it rent"
However, it's more complicated than that. The housing markets (or money markets) are largely based on usurious loans, so any attempt to run a bank that provides loans is fundamentally underpinned by the system. ie. house prices/rents are controlled by the market
So, imo, it's only possible to achieve stability & success through the change of the underlying financial system.
Good idea though, I recommend a rent-buy contract over an ordinary mortgage .. even if it works out more expensive
NB: Remember, many people have no choice .. they just have to pay 'the rent' or get thrown out!
Thief
Rogue Theologian
(where's that 'history guy when you need him?)
seems to me....
religion has taken up the sword in every direction.
few exceptions.
celebrate religion?
why not drop the dogmatic approach?
THEN celebrate
I largely agree. Have you perchance read "The Life You Can Save", by Peter Singer?In brief, a standard western-style mortgage is a loan with interest (apr .. annual percentage interest)
.. whereas an islamic loan is more like a rent-buy scheme
..so, some people just say "don't call it interest, call it rent"
However, it's more complicated than that. The housing markets (or money markets) are largely based on usurious loans, so any attempt to run a bank that provides loans is fundamentally underpinned by the system. ie. house prices/rents are controlled by the market
So, imo, it's only possible to achieve stability & success through the change of the underlying financial system.
Good idea though, I recommend a rent-buy contract over an ordinary mortgage .. even if it works out more expensive
NB: Remember, many people have no choice .. they just have to pay 'the rent' or get thrown out!
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No .. I haven't
I had a browse and found that he's a campaigner against world poverty .. does he discuss usury in his book?
These are some beautiful examples of how the Baha'is are rebuilding the world spiritually the world has been materially built. Now it needs virtues, spirit, morals and service to humanity incorporated into its psyche.
If you have a connection I urge you to have a look at these wonderful videos.
http://www.bahai.org/frontiers/
If you have a connection I urge you to have a look at these wonderful videos.
http://www.bahai.org/frontiers/
He does. He is a big criticizer of the obscene differences in personal wealth that we have these days.
Perhaps, though I suspect other factors might be more at play when it comes to sourcing prejudices, such as tribalism and discomfort with the perceived "Other".
Their worlds are too intertwined with ours for that to be an effective solution. If they destroy their world, ours go with it. If we build for ourselves a new world, theirs will be infringed on and they will defend it, perhaps even with violence. Such a new world would also infringe on our already existing worlds, and those will be defended.
That's why I'm opposed to political Universalism. Universalism is fine in certain social contexts, such as UU, but when applied to politics, it's a world war waiting to happen.
Consider what happened when Christianity, which was supposd to be universal (the word "catholic" means universal, though I'm not limiting this to just Catholicism), got forcefully imposed on the various peoples of America. I live near a mountain that's sacred to the local tribes. According to their stories, it was the point where the world was created. Now, the mountain bears the name "Diablo", and the Volvons, who lived on the mountain, are extinct.
On the topic of resources, it's not just greed, though, that causes resources to be hoarded. It really is genuine need. The situation in capitalist US has gotten to the point where many companies have no choice but to be exploitative of their workers, as well as other morally questionable practices, just to function.
In terms of the growing crisis of energy, solar power seems to be rapidly on the rise. Hopefully that can grow to an effective solution before we run out of fossil fuels.
That is right..
There ARE enough resources to go around, which leaves B
How can we change the distribution of wealth? Islam can do that
I'll believe that when the situation in Dubai is sorted out.
Anti-capitalist religions have popped up from time to time, and each time, they get exploited by capitalism. New Age comes to mind right away, starting out as an anti-capitalist movement that in many ways devolved into a "commodity religion", based less around spiritual growth and more about buying expensive decor (much of it appropriated from other cultures) and dozens of books.
Even long before capitalism became a thing, Christianity sought to do something similar to the equivalent of the time. Consider Jesus's antics at the Temple markets. What ultimately happened? Well, in Crusade-Era Europe, prayer became a commodity, making monks and priests very rich, indeed, on soldiers praying for assured passage into Heaven despite their mass slaughtering. "My Temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves!"
I'm not that familiar with Islam. But I do know that West Asians are the same species as we Europeans and European diasporia. And as such, are prone to all the same psychological traps as us. A point I was trying to make earlier is that there IS NO system of ethics or behavior that is incorruptible. Even something that's quite clear and virtuous as:
"Compassion is good, so don't be greedy and give to beggers, k?"
can be twisted and corrupted into something horrible:
"Donate half your income to charity, or you'll have no income."
My own religion has its own "lesson" for giving to beggars that I've constructed based on fairy tales. To deny any beggar his due is to deny the Wanderer Himself. (That being Woden, who's... shall we say, not exactly "merciful"?). But even it could quite easily be exploited.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What you are really saying, I think, is that whatever the system/law, mankind will find 'loopholes' ..
That would be mankind's fault, surely, not the system.
The capitalist system is based on usury. You don't NEED to find any loopholes there .. it is based on selfishness and greed.
You don't need to tell me that. Capitalism is fine as long as it's effectively regulated, but it's not right now, and there's a lot of needless suffering as a result.
Systems are created, put in place, and perpetuated, by people. Whether the system itself is sound, therefore, doesn't really matter.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
They can all be trying to get to a similar goal, though (love, compassion, etc).
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
And there you go pointing out the obvious again. LOL
It is indeed obvious. All the more reason not to neglect it.