Let's discuss VIRTUES

[Secret Chief]

The next virtue to look at has always been important to me personally and probably fits my religious thoughts due to my hereditary background. Let's see what you think. And just to be clear, I didn't write the narratives for the virtues. I borrowed them from someone who does practice this particular tradition:

The concept of industriousness reminds
us to hard work as a means to achieve a
goal. Work hard at everything you do -
you owe it to yourself, to your family, to
your community and to your [gods]. I
figure my ancestors never sat around
being lazy - working hard was inherent to
their survival. You didn't work, you didn't
eat. Your family might starve if you were
busy loafing instead of doing something.
I try to make sure that I keep my mind
and body working at all times - that
doesn't mean I don't have down time, it
simply means that I am at my best when
I feel a sense of accomplishment.

I'm not sure this is something considered in Buddhism.

 

[The Hammer]

By the way... If I remember correctly, studies have shown that people in hunter-gatherers groups often have a lot of free time. "Work" is not the default setting for us humans

They still work 40-50 hours a week roughly. Hunting, gathering, and caring for camp and others. So they aren't lazy either.

 

[Spice]

I'm not sure this is something considered in Buddhism.

How about:
Buddhists do not work to earn a living. Work, and all action, is a means to refine consciousness, smooth the rough edges of the ego, and loosen the root of suffering: attachment to identity.

 

[Spice]

Next up:

Hospitality is more than just opening
your door to a guest. It's about treating
others with respect, and being part of the
community. For our ancestors, hospitality
wasn't a question of simply being nice, it
was often a matter of survival. A traveler
might find himself wandering for days or
more without seeing another living soul.
Arriving in a new village meant not just
food and shelter, but also companionship and safety. Traditionally once a guest had eaten at your table, it meant they were also granted your protection while under your roof.

 

[Tamino]

They still work 40-50 hours a week roughly. Hunting, gathering, and caring for camp and others. So they aren't lazy either.

Being lazy sounds negative... But having time to play and chill and have hobbies is a good thing.
Consider - 50 hours per week would be 7 hours per day. If you add 7-8 hours sleep, that's still 9 hours leisure time per day.
Compare that to modern people... 40 hour job+ travel time+ household chores... That sums up to way more work time, I think.

 

[Spice]

Being lazy sounds negative... But having time to play and chill and have hobbies is a good thing.

I see that as a very recent modern POV. Until Ford started his assembly line, many worked from the time they got up until they went to bed except on their worship day. Since there were Christians and Jews working the line, and since Ford figured people needed time off to enjoy his product, he "invented" the weekend.

Consider - 50 hours per week would be 7 hours per day. If you add 7-8 hours sleep, that's still 9 hours leisure time per day.

Time needed to make and sharpen tools, skin and butcher the day's kill, and procreate. And the day is done. This of course is leaving all the food preparation, hide tanning, setting up snd taking down camp for travel, etc. for the women and children to attend to.

Compare that to modern people... 40 hour job+ travel time+ household chores... That sums up to way more work time, I think.

Talk to a farmer about that.....

 

[crossfire]

I'm not sure this is something considered in Buddhism.

Chop wood, carry water.

 

[crossfire]

Next up:

Hospitality is more than just opening
your door to a guest. It's about treating
others with respect, and being part of the
community. For our ancestors, hospitality
wasn't a question of simply being nice, it
was often a matter of survival. A traveler
might find himself wandering for days or
more without seeing another living soul.
Arriving in a new village meant not just
food and shelter, but also companionship and safety. Traditionally once a guest had eaten at your table, it meant they were also granted your protection while under your roof.

It's better to give something to people in need than it would be to have them steal it or take it by force.

 

[The Hammer]

Next up:

Hospitality is more than just opening
your door to a guest. It's about treating
others with respect, and being part of the
community. For our ancestors, hospitality
wasn't a question of simply being nice, it
was often a matter of survival. A traveler
might find himself wandering for days or
more without seeing another living soul.
Arriving in a new village meant not just
food and shelter, but also companionship and safety. Traditionally once a guest had eaten at your table, it meant they were also granted your protection while under your roof.

2.
"Hail, ye Givers! a guest is come;
say! where shall he sit within?
Much pressed is he who fain on the hearth
would seek for warmth and weal.

3.
He hath need of fire, who now is come,
numbed with cold to the knee;
food and clothing the wanderer craves
who has fared o'er the rimy fell."

-----

Hospitality is to be kind to the guests that are in one's home. To give them a warm welcome, and safe harbor. This includes extending that warmth to the Gods and Spirits of one's tradition, and their Ancestors. Showing them that they are welcome in your home and heart.

To demonstrate hospitality, a person should also recognize that they are not just the host in life, and that they are both guest and host at different times depending on circumstances and location. And as we are all guests on this home we call Earth, it is also imperative that one be hospitable to all of the life around them, extending a hand or defense where needed. Knowing that we are dependent upon the hospitality of the something else in return.

 

[Viker]

Virtues I completely agree with:

Honesty, courage, compassion, generosity, fidelity, integrity, fairness, self-control, self-reliance, industriousness.

One of my religion's higher rituals is 'The Binding and Rending of the Fool(ego/self abandon)'. Many of these are reflected within this most sacred rite. Mostly courage, fidelity, integrity, self-control.

 

[Spice]

Let's move on with:

Discipline includes using one's personal
will to uphold honor and other virtues. It's
not easy to be an ethical and just person
in today's society -- it often takes some
degree of work, and a lot of mental
discipline. Will comes into play with that.
Upholding the virtues is a choice, and it's
a much simpler path to follow to just
ignore them and do what society
expects or what's easy. Discipline is the
ability to show your courage, your loyalty,
your sense of self-reliance, in the face of
personal challenges.

 

[crossfire]

Let's move on with:

Discipline includes using one's personal
will to uphold honor and other virtues. It's
not easy to be an ethical and just person
in today's society -- it often takes some
degree of work, and a lot of mental
discipline. Will comes into play with that.
Upholding the virtues is a choice, and it's
a much simpler path to follow to just
ignore them and do what society
expects or what's easy. Discipline is the
ability to show your courage, your loyalty,
your sense of self-reliance, in the face of
personal challenges.

This is part of Right Effort from post #34

 

[The Hammer]

Let's move on with:

Discipline includes using one's personal
will to uphold honor and other virtues. It's
not easy to be an ethical and just person
in today's society -- it often takes some
degree of work, and a lot of mental
discipline. Will comes into play with that.
Upholding the virtues is a choice, and it's
a much simpler path to follow to just
ignore them and do what society
expects or what's easy. Discipline is the
ability to show your courage, your loyalty,
your sense of self-reliance, in the face of
personal challenges.

This falls under Perseverance imo

 

[Mock Turtle]

It seems that many tend to place self-reliance into the selfishness category, but I don't think it should be seen as such, given that one can still be as socially inclined as those more reliant on others, but those who do have marked self-reliance will always be there when the house of cards collapses - which is the weak aspect of mostly relying on others or on any particular infrastructure. Developing self-reliance at least gets one to be more attuned to one's own abilities when the **** hits the fan.

 

[Secret Chief]

How about:
Buddhists do not work to earn a living. Work, and all action, is a means to refine consciousness, smooth the rough edges of the ego, and loosen the root of suffering: attachment to identity.

Dunno. Not heard of that.

 

[Secret Chief]

Chop wood, carry water.

Would you say that's meant to refer to industriousness? I'm not sure. I take it as to continue with life...mindfulness does not change the outward behaviour. Imo.

Before enlightenment
Chop wood, carry water
After enlightenment
Chop wood, carry water

- Enlightenment: 3 Meanings of Chop Wood, Carry Water

 

[SalixIncendium]

The next virtue to look at has always been important to me personally and probably fits my religious thoughts due to my hereditary background. Let's see what you think. And just to be clear, I didn't write the narratives for the virtues. I borrowed them from someone who does practice this particular tradition:

The concept of industriousness reminds
us to hard work as a means to achieve a
goal. Work hard at everything you do -
you owe it to yourself, to your family, to
your community and to your [gods]. I
figure my ancestors never sat around
being lazy - working hard was inherent to
their survival. You didn't work, you didn't
eat. Your family might starve if you were
busy loafing instead of doing something.
I try to make sure that I keep my mind
and body working at all times - that
doesn't mean I don't have down time, it
simply means that I am at my best when
I feel a sense of accomplishment.

While I identify as Hindu, Toltec philosophy was quite the game changer for me before I discovered Hinduism. 'Industriousness' would fall more in line with the Fourth Agreement in that philosophy; "Always do your best."

"Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgement, self-abuse, and regret."​

The fourth agreement: always do your best - The Four Agreements

by don Miguel Ruiz with Janet Mills The fourth agreement — Always Do Your Best — is the one that allows the other three agreements to become deeply ingrained habits. Under any circumstance, always do your best, no more and no less. But keep in...

www.thefouragreements.com

 

[SalixIncendium]

That is not a virtue for me

We shouldn't have to be industrious

Virtues aren't mandates. They are right action.

One always has a choice to live virtuously nor not.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Industriousness? I would not see that as a virtue either.
It's a means to an end, no more. You need to do your job and fulfill your obligations in life.
But otherwise? Make yourself a good day, forget worry. (From the dispute of a man with his Ba)

By the way... If I remember correctly, studies have shown that people in hunter-gatherers groups often have a lot of free time. "Work" is not the default setting for us humans

I think it's also important to understand that "work" isn't always physical labor.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I'm not sure this is something considered in Buddhism.

Do Buddhists not work to end the cycle of suffering and rebirth?