Let's not talk about the Big Bang

[Zwing]

The classical model based on General Relativity suggests that there wasn't and time started at the BB.

Regarding an associated concept: that “space” originated with the BB, how can this be, if space is not precisely coordinate with our universe? Our universe is expanding within space, no?

 

[Polymath257]

Regarding an associated concept: that “space” originated with the BB, how can this be, if space is not precisely coordinate with our universe? Our universe is expanding within space, no?

No. it is space itself that is expanding.

 

[Polymath257]

Fine, I can put together an electronic counter and capacity link the 60Hz from any electricity power outlet to the input and with appropriate counting arrangements, I could count time, and make a clock even. Is the time being detected at the electrical power generating station. or in my counter. In fact I could make an audio oscillator and do the same thing.

Time is a concept that represents the counting of sequential finite duration regular period of anything and the tracking of the continuity of existence.. For example, earth rotation, lunar cycles, earth orbital periods, pendulums, sun dials, oscillators, electrical power 60hz cycles, quartz xtals, atomic clocks, any regular periodic activity anywhere at all that has a regular period can be used as a proxy for timing the continuity of existence.

While periodic activity is important for counting, it is NOT required for measuring time.

I gave an example in a previous post: the length of a particle track determines the time of decay if we know the velocity. Thi sis a typical way to measure the very short durations in particle decays.

 

[Polymath257]

Precisely, that is how one is aware that time is a human concept. There is no cosmic entity on the other side of the concept. When the mind is still, the concepts of the ego mind are seen for what they are, thought bubbles that are meant to represent something real.

Does space have an entity on the other side of the concept?

 

[exchemist]

Does space have an entity on the other side of the concept?

Ah, the words of an experienced master!

 

[Zwing]

No. it is space itself that is expanding.

Then, what is postulated to exist outside of the confines of our universe?

 

[Polymath257]

3D space is full of matter and energy, zpe, atoms, etc., there are vibrations throughout, the space is an entity that is full and real.

Time is an entity that is full of matter and energy, etc. There are vibrations throughout. Time is an entity that is full and real.

Time is that same 3D space continuing to exist. Iow it is the real space continuing to be real space, there is no time entity that is real, just the real continuing to be real which continuity we call time.

Space is just time continuing to exist with a change of position. It is real time continuing to be real time.

You claim there is a space entity that is real. Point it out to me.

Space is a concept to represent the real.
Time is a concept to represent the continuity of the real.

Both are concepts to represent the geometry of the real.

 

[Polymath257]

I beg your pardon, the concept of the continuity of existence may be mental, but the reality represented by the conceptualization is real. Existence continues to exist.

And that reality is time. Time is real.

 

[ratiocinator]

Then, what is postulated to exist outside of the confines of our universe?

Outside of space is a contradiction in terms. Space may be infinite anyway.

 

[Zwing]

Time is an entity…

It will take a revolutionary change in my belief system to conceive of time as “an entity” of any description.

 

[Polymath257]

Then, what is postulated to exist outside of the confines of our universe?

There is no outside of the confines of the universe.

 

[Zwing]

Outside of space is a contradiction in terms. Space may be infinite anyway.

My view is that space is, indeed, infinite, but that our “universe” (which now seems like a misnomer) is obviously not.

 

[Polymath257]

It will take a revolutionary change in my belief system to conceive of time as “an entity” of any description.

OK. It is just as much an 'entity' as space is. Maybe it is time for a revolutionary change in your belief system? That is up to you, though.

I am just pointing out what the best science we have today says.

 

[Polymath257]

My view is that space is, indeed, infinite, but that our “universe” (which now seems like a misnomer) is obviously not.

The universe consists of all of space and all of time. So all matter and energy is within the universe.

 

[Zwing]

There is no outside of the confines of the universe.

But, our universe is composed of the galaxies (clusters and superclusters…) which constitute it. Surely, you are not suggesting that they fill infinite space?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It will take a revolutionary change in my belief system to conceive of time as “an entity” of any description.

Entity is a concept about concepts. Go figure.

 

[ratiocinator]

It will take a revolutionary change in my belief system to conceive of time as “an entity” of any description.

So why is that important? The universe is under no obligation to respect your beliefs.

 

[Polymath257]

But, our universe is composed of the galaxies that constitute it. Surely, you are not suggesting that they fill infinite space?

We don't know if space is infinite or not. But yes, they fill all of space. All the evidence is that the universe is uniform and isotropic on the large scale.

 

[Zwing]

So why is that important? The universe is under no obligation to respect your beliefs.

No ****. I am asking you to help me to conceive of that which you do, or at least to understand it.

 

[Zwing]

We don't know if space is infinite or not.

To me, it seems that it must be, for what can exist beyond it? If it is not infinite, then what is it maintained by…within what does it exist? In like manner, and as to the finity of the universe, our “universe” was created at/by the “Big Bang”, which was an inherently finite event occurring at a particular point within space (as I understand the matter). How can a finite event possibly produce something infinite? Help me out, here…