Let's Present Some Evidence ...

[Willamena]

Right, but the physical structures themselves will still exist. Love, beauty, and justice do not exist as anything other than experiences/concepts. You're comparing apples and the taste of oranges.

"Physical structures" is the concept of "physical" combined with the concept of "structure".

They have an objective existence apart from conscious perception.

How do you know?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Again, I don't see how this is relevant. Of what significance is an existing Earth with no conscious humans to interpret or appreciate it? How would it matter that a dead (unconscious) universe goes on forever?

The relevance is that it illustrates how "real" has more than one context. If you are, in fact, not positing that god objectively exists, then we have no disagreement.

 

[PureX]

It appears that I am rather physical actually.

This new line of approach from you is amusing I have to say. Since you have gotten us to admit god is a concept (which was self-evident but no matter), your approach to showing it exists is to argue everything is a concept. I could not have made this up. The tooth fairy is a concept too - therefore by your logic it is as real as you.

Well, you could take this tack, but you wouldn't get very far with it. Because in the conceptual arena, the concept that "works" is the concept that gains authenticity, or truthfulness. Your fairies and whatnot don't work for people, which is why they are of so much weaker conceptual value, and held to minimal credibility relative to the concept of "God", or love, or beauty, etc.

 

[Commoner]

Well, you could take this tack, but you wouldn't get very far with it. Because in the conceptual arena, the concept that "works" is the concept that gains authenticity, or truthfulness. Your fairies and whatnot don't work for people, which is why they are of so much weaker conceptual value, and held to minimal credibility relative to the concept of "God", or love, or beauty, etc.

I think this "works" of yours unfortunatelly doesn't "work" for people. Know what I mean?

 

[PureX]

The relevance is that it illustrates how "real" has more than one context. If you are, in fact, not positing that god objectively exists, then we have no disagreement.

All I was ever positing was that there is evidence to support the theory that God exists apart from our concept of God. That's not the same as claiming that God exists in such a manner. To that claim, I can only say that there is some evidence, but I don't know, and I don't believe anyone else does either.

 

[themadhair]

Because in the conceptual arena, the concept that "works" is the concept that gains authenticity, or truthfulness.

The concept of the world existing as it appears to be, without any supernatural involvement, appears to work pretty darn well. So I agree.

Your fairies and whatnot don't work for people, which is why they are of so much weaker conceptual value, and held to minimal credibility relative to the concept of "God", or love, or beauty, etc.

Fairies do work for some people just as well as your god concept. You seem to think that people who different concepts to be true other than god are being inferior to you. I cited the example of Scientology earlier and how it 'works' for people and, aside from immediately dismissing it without any relevant comment, you pretty much ignored it. What does that say about how much you believe in your own logic?

 

[themadhair]

All I was ever positing was that there is evidence to support the theory that God exists apart from our concept of God. That's not the same as claiming that God exists in such a manner.

Am I the only who read these sentences as being slightly contradictory?

 

[PureX]

I think this "works" of yours unfortunatelly doesn't "work" for people. Know what I mean?

Yeah, that's why nobody believes in or used the concept of "God" in their lives. Just me. I'm the only theist left.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

All I was ever positing was that there is evidence to support the theory that God exists apart from our concept of God. That's not the same as claiming that God exists in such a manner. To that claim, I can only say that there is some evidence, but I don't know, and I don't believe anyone else does either.

As long as you're aware that the existence of love, beauty, and justice don't constitute evidence of the existence of god apart from our concept of god - which is all I am saying.

 

[Commoner]

Yeah, that's why nobody believes in or used the concept of "God" in their lives. Just me. I'm the only theist left.

No, I just think people have other justifications.

 

[themadhair]

Yeah, that's why nobody believes in or used the concept of "God" in their lives.

What about those people who have allowed the concept of fairies to cause entire building projects to be changed? And yet you dismiss fairies in the same I dismiss your god while crying foul.

 

[PureX]

Fairies do work for some people just as well as your god concept.

Sure, there are always exceptions. But the exceptions don't disprove the general observation.

You seem to think that people who different concepts to be true other than god are being inferior to you. I cited the example of Scientology earlier and how it 'works' for people and, aside from immediately dismissing it without any relevant comment, you pretty much ignored it. What does that say about how much you believe in your own logic?

It says I don't know anything about scientology, so I didn't speak to what I don't know.

 

[PureX]

What about those people who have allowed the concept of fairies to cause entire building projects to be changed? And yet you dismiss fairies in the same I dismiss your god while crying foul.

Everyone's concept of God is different. If you want to envision God as a bunch of fairies that's fine. Whatever works for you. I'm not dismissing fairies because I think they don't exist, I'm dismissing them because they don't work for me.

 

[Commoner]

Everyone's concept of God is different. If you want to envision God as a bunch of fairies that's fine. Whatever works for you. I'm not dismissing fairies because I think they don't exist, I'm dismissing them because they don't work for me.

So, god is a concept that means everything - and nothing, and fairies exist, but they don't "work", so we dismiss them?

What's going on inside that brain of yours?

 

[themadhair]

Sure, there are always exceptions. But the exceptions don't disprove the general observation.

That such concepts don’t have a basis in realty? That is the general observation after all.

It says I don't know anything about scientology, so I didn't speak to what I don't know.

Then why did you dismiss it so quickly? Hint: It is to do with the amount of evidence on offer.

Everyone's concept of God is different.

This again seems to lend credence that the this ‘god’ doesn’t exist outside peoples minds.

 

[PureX]

As long as you're aware that the existence of love, beauty, and justice don't constitute evidence of the existence of god apart from our concept of god - which is all I am saying.

Ummm ... I don't think I could reasonably claim that love, beauty, justice, etc., are evidence of the objective (for lack of a better term) existence of God. No. Because I see no reason that these concepts AND their reality couldn't exist without a God.

However, I would say that because these other concepts are real, and do 'exist' to the extent that they do, this lends some credibility to the concept of God being just as real in a similar way. And that if we accept the reality of one of these, we should accept the reality of them all, equally.

 

[PureX]

So, god is a concept that means everything - and nothing, and fairies exist, but they don't "work", so we dismiss them?

What's going on inside that brain of yours?

C'mon, dude, you're workin' way too hard at it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

However, I would say that because these other concepts are real, and do 'exist' to the extent that they do, this lends some credibility to the concept of God being just as real in a similar way. And that if we accept the reality of one of these, we should accept the reality of them all, equally.

Absolutely - they are all equally real as subjective, human concepts.

 

[PureX]

This again seems to lend credence that the this ‘god’ doesn’t exist outside peoples minds.

And again I would remind you that YOU don't exist outside of people's minds. You are a figment of human consciousness, too.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And again I would remind you that YOU don't exist outside of people's minds. You are a figment of human consciousness, too.

So, if every other person on earth died, I would cease to exist?