Let's re-think South Carolina ban on gender-affirming care

[icehorse]

This is an interesting point! If there is no such thing as a "transgender child or teen," then how can there be any such thing as a cisgender child or teen?

I guess you ignored the post preceding yours?

Should they not be brought up, not as boys nor girls, but as ungendered beings and "we'll see what they turn into" critters? But no, that's not how we do it, is it -- they are brought up to be "proper boys" and "proper girls."

I suspect we agree here. I think we should understand that there are infinite personalities, and so, for example we should support tomboys and effeminate boys and every personality in between. And if we did that we'd see a lot less GD in the first place.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Little "meaning" comes from being forced to be what you feel you are not.

Is a gender identity the highest form of self? Or does gender identity supplant the self in trans?

By opposing GAC, I’m calling people to a higher form of meaning and a higher form of self. That first starts with self-ID rather than gender ID.

 

[libre]

Many of them are having their lives destroyed needlessly.

This is complete fantasy icehorse.
The statistics in the OP show that these people are very very happy with their transitions.

The fact that you are so concerned that they may have been happy without transition (despite everything they experience and say to the contrary), does not actually mean their lives were destroyed. That's just your own personal feelings about how they live being projected onto them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is a gender identity the highest form of self? Or does gender identity supplant the self in trans?

By opposing GAC, I’m calling people to a higher form of meaning and a higher form of self. That first starts with self-ID rather than gender ID.

Let me point out that most of the Abrahamic religious world identifies their highest entity as male.

I think that gender is an integral part of the self that any person feels his- or herself to be. It's not "higher" or "lower," its part of an integrated whole. And if it isn't, then there is (I would think) a much more serious mental health issue.

But let me provide you an example -- and this is an example that actually supports the case for GAC, even though on the surface it appears not to be. The case is a Canadian, David Reimer, whose penis was severely damaged due to a botched circumcision in infancy, and who was surgically and hormonally altered to be female, and brought up to be a girl, alongside his twin brother (who as a consequence was not circumcised).

The psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. The academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer's realization, that he was not a girl, occurred between the ages of 9 and 11 years and that he was living as a male by the age of 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. At age 38, he committed suicide due to severe depression. Nobody could give him back what he lost as a baby.

Here is the point -- despite what John Money said, at least in this case, his gender identity was NOT learned, it was inherent within him. He knew that he was not a girl, despite the alterations made to his body before he was old enough to remember, and the constant encouragement from parents and Dr. Money to "be a girl." And this is what so many trans kids tell their doctors: "Doctor, I'm not a boy, I'm a girl." David Reimer didn't get a chance to say that -- he was too young, and he wouldn't have said it anyway, as became obvious.

So here's the question for you: what do you do when a child insists, in spite of all discouragement, that they are not "who" their birth sex appears to have assigned them to be? Just tell them to get over it? Because I am sorry to have to tell you this: your "self-ID" is not (usually) genderless. I am tired to death of people who constantly refer to some "higher form of self" or "higher power" or "higher this-or-that." The only truly health individual is the one who is integrated.

 

[Valjean]

Can you expand on that? There are at least 3 claims in that sentence, all of which would need to be true...

And how would you measure "negative consequences"?

I will say though that your arguments are much more thoughtful than I'm used to seeing, thanks!

See the link in Libre's post #20.

 

[Valjean]

Indeed. And sometimes interventions like GAC can cause unnecessary harm, for example when it's done on kids who wouldn't have ended up trans. So we've got an actual dilemma here.

And the solution is careful assessment of the applicants for treatment.

 

[icehorse]

This is complete fantasy icehorse.
The statistics in the OP show that these people are very very happy with their transitions.

I'm talking about the kids that go thru GAC but are not trans.

Can you at least acknowledge the existence of this group - you seem worried about people forgetting that certain groups exist, so how about GD kids that are not trans? Don't they exist too?

 

[icehorse]

And the solution is careful assessment of the applicants for treatment.

So how many wrong assessments is it okay to make? How many kids with GD that are not trans is it okay to maim?

Healthcare providers do not have a crystal ball, careful assessment is far from perfect.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm talking about the kids that go thru GAC but are not trans.

Can you at least acknowledge the existence of this group - you seem worried about people forgetting that certain groups exist, so how about GD kids that are not trans? Don't they exist too?

Do you have any background for kids that have received Gender Affirming Care who were not, in fact, transgendered? (I provided one, by the way, David Reimer, but he is an excellent case for demonstrating that gender identification is not learned.)

I think this question needs an answer -- and I think it needs an answer because we should try to understand how a medical team was so lax as to permit it to happen. I mean, surely such a thing should never be permitted based only on, say, a GP, a family doctor. These are not specialists in any sense -- frankly, sometimes not a whole lot better trained than EMTs. If sloppy psychiatric/psychological care is allowing some to slip through the cracks, we should know about it and do something about it.

 

[libre]

I'm talking about the kids that go thru GAC but are not trans.

Are you under the impression that kids who do not identify as transgender are transitioning... just cause?
Or are you trying to say they need to prove their trans-ness somehow?

 

[Valjean]

So how many wrong assessments is it okay to make? How many kids with GD that are not trans is it okay to maim?

There are two ways to harm: don't intervene when intervention would prevent harm, and intervene when the intervention, itself would be harmful.
Why do you opt for the former, when the study results cited shows that we seem to be doing a pretty good job assessing the best course of action?

Healthcare providers do not have a crystal ball, careful assessment is far from perfect.

Yet the study bears out the success of leaving it to the parents and medical professionals.

I don't have a crystal ball, either, and accidents happen everyday; yet I still drive. I rely on the statistical probabilities. Why don't you?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Here is the point -- despite what John Money said, at least in this case, his gender identity was NOT learned, it was inherent within him.

John Money doesn’t speak for me.

Gender identity is imposed on you from multiple different directions: bio-sex, environment, psyche.

The self is divided in two between the social self and the individuated self. The social self establishes itself as dominant right away which is why socialization is universal. However, there is no lasting meaning to be derived through the social self; instead, meaning through the social self diminishes over time as we age.

For many people, living through the social self doesn’t usually become a crisis until later in adulthood. Then, they white-knuckle it and cope until they die. Not ideal, but there are more pressing concerns. In my view, these young kids dealing with marginalization and suicidal ideation are hitting the meaning crisis point far too young to cope and white-knuckle it for the rest of their lives.

The social self and the individuated self are in opposition to each. The social self must become individuated or die in order for the individuated self to become primary. Because of this, the social self will be more prone to give up its position to a different gender identity before it’s willing to die and be replaced by the individuated self.

Through a clever form of self-deception, the social self can temporarily satiate the instinct for higher truth + meaning by going through a form of death and replacement, as it’s supposed to, but replace itself with a different gender identity rather than by the individuated self. Then, with the gender identity in place, the social self can still do its will hidden behind its gender puppet.

I’m not expecting agreement with I’ve shared here, but I’m telling the truth.

 

[icehorse]

Do you have any background for kids that have received Gender Affirming Care who were not, in fact, transgendered? (I provided one, by the way, David Reimer, but he is an excellent case for demonstrating that gender identification is not learned.)

I think this question needs an answer -- and I think it needs an answer because we should try to understand how a medical team was so lax as to permit it to happen. I mean, surely such a thing should never be permitted based only on, say, a GP, a family doctor. These are not specialists in any sense -- frankly, sometimes not a whole lot better trained than EMTs. If sloppy psychiatric/psychological care is allowing some to slip through the cracks, we should know about it and do something about it.

You could start with the documentary "Lost Boys".

But honestly, I don't think that even the best medical teams in the world are capable of batting .1000 in this regard.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

John Money doesn’t speak for me.

Gender identity is imposed on you from multiple different directions: bio-sex, environment, psyche.

The self is divided in two between the social self and the individuated self. The social self establishes itself as dominant right away which is why socialization is universal. However, there is no lasting meaning to be derived through the social self; instead, meaning through the social self diminishes over time as we age.

For many people, living through the social self doesn’t usually become a crisis until later in adulthood. Then, they white-knuckle it and cope until they die. Not ideal, but there are more pressing concerns. In my view, these young kids dealing with marginalization and suicidal ideation are hitting the meaning crisis point far too young to cope and white-knuckle it for the rest of their lives.

The social self and the individuated self are in opposition to each. The social self must become individuated or die in order for the individuated self to become primary. Because of this, the social self will be more prone to give up its position to a different gender identity before it’s willing to die and be replaced by the individuated self.

Through a clever form of self-deception, the social self can temporarily satiate the instinct for higher truth + meaning by going through a form of death and replacement, as it’s supposed to, but replace itself with a different gender identity rather than by the individuated self. Then, with the gender identity in place, the social self can still do its will hidden behind its gender puppet.

I’m not expecting agreement with I’ve shared here, but I’m telling the truth.

You may be "telling the truth," in that you are telling us what you really think, but I do not believe there is any science behind it.

Humans are a social species -- in fact, we are a weak form of what is known as a eusocial species (see Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of the Earth, 2012). The social part of our nature is a crucial and integral part of what we are. You seem to be suggesting that we should somehow "voluntarily evolve beyond" our true human nature -- to become .... what, exactly?

 

[icehorse]

Are you under the impression that kids who do not identify as transgender are transitioning... just cause?
Or are you trying to say they need to prove their trans-ness somehow?

First off, we're talking about kids with GD. Many kids with severe GD do NOT end up trans. So if a kid with GD identifies as trans, let's say at age 10, and is allowed to go thru puberty without drugs, that kid has a good chance of no longer identifying as trans.

This is not a value judgment. But wouldn't you agree that only trans kids should go thru GAC?

 

[icehorse]

Yet the study bears out the success of leaving it to the parents and medical professionals.

Kind of, but not really.

First off, it's not longitudinal enough.
Second, it needs to compare it's results with GD kids that had only talk therapy.

Otherwise, it's a sort of self-fulfilling, after-the-fact situation.

So let me ask you: Do you think kids with GD that are not trans should go thru GAC?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

You may be "telling the truth," in that you are telling us what you really think, but I do not believe there is any science behind it.

Humans are a social species -- in fact, we are a weak form of what is known as a eusocial species (see Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of the Earth, 2012). The social part of our nature is a crucial and integral part of what we are. You seem to be suggesting that we should somehow "voluntarily evolve beyond" our true human nature -- to become .... what, exactly?

Post individuation, the social self remains. The death is a perceived death because it’s giving up the privileged position. A death of status you can say, not an actual death.

This is the only way to truly level up. If a young person is going through suicidal ideation, they don’t need to commit to going through the entire journey I’ve done, but they need to level up once at the very least.

 

[icehorse]

I rely on the statistical probabilities

What stats are you using? The stats I've seen is that a significant percentage of kids with GD do not end up trans. As I recall it's over 50%? But I'd like to see your stats.

 

[Valjean]

What stats are you using? The stats I've seen is that a significant percentage of kids with GD do not end up trans. As I recall it's over 50%? But I'd like to see your stats.

But what percentage of the non-trans GDs opt for, or are recommended for, the interventions we're talking about?
As the study indicates, most who did receive medical intervention seem happy with it.
How much harm or dissatisfaction was caused by non-intervention where intervention might have yielded a better outcome?

 

[icehorse]

But what percentage of the non-trans GDs opt for, or are recommended for, the interventions we're talking about?
As the study indicates, most who did receive medical intervention seem happy with it.
How much harm or dissatisfaction was caused by non-intervention where intervention might have yielded a better outcome?

Again, as presented the study has some flaws. Most noticeably the lack of long term data.

But regardless, there is not doubt that some people who go thru GAC are happy with the results. But BECAUSE there is not a body of studies comparing GAC to talk therapy only, we do not yet know how many kids would have been fine without GAC.

Now, would you agree that being happy without GAC is preferable to being happy after GAC?