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Lets stop debating on God. Does Love exist ?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How does biological evolution account for the existence of a galaxy capable of generating and supporting life in some small corner of itself?
You asked how human brains came about. The answer to that is biological evolution.

As for what lead up to that, in a nutshell:
Stars and galaxies etc form due to gravity and the laws of nature.
Stars produce heavy elements, go supernovae, producing the heavier elements and spreading them out into the universe.
There they come together under gravity again and get incorporated into new star systems, with planets orbitting them.
Once this occurs, the proverbial stage is set for chemistry to produce life on those planets.
Once life / stuff exists and self-replicates with variation and uses resources from its surroundings for energy to grow / survive / reproduce, you automatically get competition.
Now the stage is set for evolution to start happening.

Then some 3.8 billion years later, here we are.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But we do know that life exists here, and that the probability of it doing so has been calculated to be somewhere in the region of 10^10^123.

You can be very certain that calculation is bullocks because we don't have enough information to make such a calculation.
And i'll bet a million dollars that it doesn't even properly account for all the things we DO know about the origins of life.

In statistical terms this is effectively a miracle, since in probability theory any outcome with odds less than 1 in 10^70 is considered an impossibility.

And what is it called when you present probabilities and treat them as true-isms when you couldn't possibly account for a) the mechanisms of the process or b) the exact variables at play in context of what that process needs to occur.

To know what the probability is of a certain process taking place, you need to know the details of what that process entails.
If you don't know how it works, you couldn't possibly place any kind of sensible probability on it.

If it's a chemical reaction, then there are situations where the probability of it occuring is literally 1 in 1.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Thanks, interesting idea. Why not use word affection instead of love?

To me love means caring without conditions.

For the same reason i don't call a full English breakfast a fried egg. There is much more than affection. I listed a couple of points and i mentioned care.

Why not use the word care instead of love?
 
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chinu

chinu
For the same reason i don't call a full English breakfast a fried egg. There is much more than affection. I listed a couple of points and i mentioned care.

Why not use the word care instead of love?
That because I don’t think you care all children in the world. You care only yours. :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That because I don’t think you care all children in the world. You care only yours. :)

You are perfectly entitled to think whatever you want.

Care is only a fragment of love. For me, i don't cheapen love by giving to you all and sundry. But care...
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Hi atheist !
Lets stop debating on God.

Now the question is:
Does love exist ? what do you say ? :)
Absolutely. The word love does not mean allah, el nor hercules. Not even the hairy christna means "LOVE" and he had 16,000 wives and is claimed to service them all. Only a god could do that.


LOVE: a(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties. maternal love for a child. (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers.


The word LOVE has many definitions and christians are the last to own the meaning of the word. Heck, if christians actually followed the words of jesus, even an muslim could love a christian.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I said care without conditions. It is not the same as care.

Is it not? If you care then conditions are out the window, everyone has something to be concerned about, thanks you care means that condition is out the window.

Perhaps we think on different wavelengths
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The sun is working because of the compression from gravity.


Yes, but that wasn’t the question. You are only able to make that observation because these phenomena - gravity, heat, light - are accessible to you by virtue of your conscious awareness.

And one should bear in mind that the act of observation is not passive - to observe a system, or a phenomenon, is to interact with it; and interaction between entities has an effect on those entities. It changes them.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Is it not? If you care then conditions are out the window, everyone has something to be concerned about, thanks you care means that condition is out the window.
I think one can care with a condition also. For example many care about those who are their relatives, because they are relatives. Or many care, if they benefit from it somehow.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I think one can care with a condition also. For example many care about those who are their relatives, because they are relatives. Or many care, if they benefit from it somehow.

You still care, whether conditional or not
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes, but that wasn’t the question. You are only able to make that observation because these phenomena - gravity, heat, light - are accessible to you by virtue of your conscious awareness.

And one should bear in mind that the act of observation is not passive - to observe a system, or a phenomenon, is to interact with it; and interaction between entities has an effect on those entities. It changes them.
Not only conscious entities interact with forces. A prism is changed by light entering it and in turn changes the light. No consciousness necessary. And, knowing that, we can deduce some things about a light packet even though we didn't observe it - but the universe did. E.g. we know that some light has traveled billions of years. I.e. there was a universe billions of years ago that existed even though no conscious being observed it.
(That is clear to everyone except the last-thirthdayists and similar folk.)
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Not only conscious entities interact with forces. A prism is changed by light entering it and in turn changes the light. No consciousness necessary. And, knowing that, we can deduce some things about a light packet even though we didn't observe it - but the universe did. E.g. we know that some light has traveled billions of years. I.e. there was a universe billions of years ago that existed even though no conscious being observed it.
(That is clear to everyone except the last-thirthdayists and similar folk.)


Another way of wording it would be to say that information is exchanged, whenever diverse phenomena interact.

Integrated information theory - Wikipedia proposes that the level of consciousness of a system is determined by the volume and diversity of information received and processed. So for example a photon carries with it, in the form of information about it's momentum, position, energy and speed, a quantum of consciousness. This is not say it is self aware, of course - you need a lot more information, integrated in exponentially more complex ways, for that level of consciousness to emerge.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
It’s an idea to which I’ve given serious consideration, since self evidently, objective external reality cannot be shown to exist independently of a conscious observer. Because to show, prove, or speculate about the existence of any phenomena, necessarily requires the action of a conscious agent.

We may fervently believe that the moon exists independently of our observation of it, but since all of our experience of reality takes place within the realm of consciousness, we can’t possibly know the world as it would be if we weren’t there observing it.

It’s not just me who has entertained these ideas though, and they are certainly not original; see also, Renee Descartes, Immanuel Kant, John Berkeley, Nils Bohr, John Wheeler, Christopher Fuchs, lots of people.

What I’m offering for consideration might sound like solipsism or anti-realism, but those are extreme positions. Whereas, the idea that all distinctions are arbitrary, and that the object, the observer, and the act of observation are inseparable, is not extreme at all, it’s logically coherent. We may think of it as a paradox, one which at some point becomes unavoidable, in philosophy, in cosmology, in quantum mechanics.
The basic building blocks of life are found in space, already assembled so the odds are not that high.



The idealism vs materialism is an ongoing debate.


"Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, a 17th-century German philosopher, and mathematician, did not specifically prove that the mind is separate from the brain. However, he did propose a concept called "Monadology," which is a metaphysical theory about the nature of reality that could be interpreted as supporting the idea of the mind being separate from the brain.


Leibniz believed that the universe was composed of simple, indivisible, and immaterial entities called "monads." Each monad represents a unique perspective of the world and is independent of other monads. Monads are not physical entities, like neurons in the brain, and they are not reducible to simpler components.


According to Leibniz's Monadology, monads can be seen as the fundamental constituents of both material objects and immaterial minds. In this sense, one could argue that Leibniz's monads might be seen as supporting the idea that the mind is separate from the brain. However, this interpretation would be a philosophical stance rather than a scientific proof.


It is important to note that the concepts of mind and brain were not as clearly defined in Leibniz's time as they are today. Modern neuroscience and cognitive science have advanced our understanding of the relationship between the brain and the mind considerably, and there is ongoing debate about the nature of consciousness and the mind-brain relationship."


does idealism prove materialism cannot be true


"Idealism and materialism are two opposing philosophical views about the nature of reality. Idealism posits that reality is fundamentally mental or immaterial, while materialism asserts that reality is fundamentally physical or material. These positions represent contrasting perspectives, but the existence of one does not necessarily disprove the other.


The debate between idealism and materialism has been ongoing for centuries, and it is unlikely to be resolved definitively. Both positions have their strengths and weaknesses, and they appeal to different aspects of human experience and understanding.


Idealism can provide compelling explanations for certain phenomena, such as the nature of consciousness and subjective experience. For example, idealists might argue that our conscious experiences are proof of the existence of a non-physical, mental reality.


On the other hand, materialism has been successful in explaining a wide range of empirical observations, particularly in the natural sciences. The progress in fields like physics, chemistry, and biology has largely been based on the assumption that the natural world is composed of material entities that follow predictable laws.


Ultimately, whether one believes that idealism proves materialism cannot be true depends on one's philosophical inclinations and worldview. It is important to recognize that both idealism and materialism have contributed valuable insights to human understanding, and the ongoing dialogue between these positions can help deepen our knowledge of reality."
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, but that wasn’t the question. You are only able to make that observation because these phenomena - gravity, heat, light - are accessible to you by virtue of your conscious awareness.
We are also able to make models using gravity and balls of gas and see they predict the star we see.
This line of argument is using idealism is a bit dated. It can be established to some degree that there is an underlying reality, different people can use the same equations to make the same predictions. Also after Berkely's work, Three Dialogues, on materialism vs idealism there has been modern arguments against idealism and quantum mechanics had not yet been developed.




And one should bear in mind that the act of observation is not passive - to observe a system, or a phenomenon, is to interact with it; and interaction between entities has an effect on those entities. It changes them.
Well you can make an accurate model of a star on paper and see the results in the universe. We observe photons after they have left the star.
 
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