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Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And, interestingly enough, Jesus didn't seem to mention that. he specifically stated that his message was only to the Jews (althogh he made exceptions).



Once again, it is easy enough to twist vague words to match whatever is happening at any time you want. This is why 'prophesies' are usually useless: they can be interpreted in so many different ways.

Anyway, we have diverged quite widely from the topic of this thread. Maybe this should be in a different thread. Do you have anything to say about the Big Bang?

Jesus' MINISTRY was to the Jews. But the Ministry of the Apostles was to both Jew and Gentile.
Jesus said Jerusalem would fall, be trodden under the feet of the Gentiles, 'Until the Gentile's time is finished.'
Jacob said of the coming Messiah that the Hebrew nation would end and the 'obedience of the nations shall be his.' That obedience is now long past, and now the Jews are returning to Israel.

Anyhow, the Big Bang.
Read an interesting article, and saved it, which posits that you cannot have a recycling universe due to the laws of thermodynamics and entropy.
Our universe is a one off.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Jesus' MINISTRY was to the Jews. But the Ministry of the Apostles was to both Jew and Gentile.
.. and now the Jews are returning to Israel.
Anyhow, the Big Bang.
Why? Were the apostles wiser than Jesus? If Jesus wanted to include gentile, he would have said that. That is going against the word of God.
How does return of Jews concern Christians? They have their religion, you have yours.
Well, there are umpteen theories. Why jump at the mention of one?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Why? Were the apostles wiser than Jesus? If Jesus wanted to include gentile, he would have said that. That is going against the word of God.
How does return of Jews concern Christians? They have their religion, you have yours.
Well, there are umpteen theories. Why jump at the mention of one?

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. He Himself said, "I am only sent to the lost sheep of the Jews" but he told His disciples that THEY must take the Gospel to all the world, Jew and Gentile alike.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
As far as fear goes, the real promise is love. To love God and neighbor. It is one thing to love a parent, and when a child loves a parent, they don't want to hurt them. In fact, they fear hurting them, because they love them.

But God seem petty even with love.

If you haven't been paying attention with Genesis, on a number of occasions, God would be biased on towards a number of people of whom he love, that's showing favoritism, thereby alienating the others.

You gave an example of parent and child. But the type of love God have for mortals is destructive, he would play one against another. Who needs enemy when you have a God is childish, petty and cruel?

Examples, God showed loved for Abel over Cain, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his brothers.

God is like the story of Isaac. Although Isaac was tricked into giving his blessing to Jacob, why wouldn't Isaac bless both sons, instead of leaving Esau deprived.

That's the same attitude God, favoring one over the other.

If you have 2, 3 or even half dozen children, as a parent, you should love each one of them unconditionally.

Problems arise between siblings, when you love more one child over the others. That's bad parenting. The other children would feel left out, excluded, and that can lead to jealousy, envy and anger.

God is not good example of what a parent should be.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Anyhow, the Big Bang.
Read an interesting article, and saved it, which posits that you cannot have a recycling universe due to the laws of thermodynamics and entropy.
Our universe is a one off.

OK. You realize a recycling universe is only one of many possibilities, right? it is far from being the default even among those who think a universe/multiverse is eternal.

Also, I would be very skeptical of applying thermodynamics, which is a collection of statistical laws based on quantum mechanics given that we don't have a good theory of quantum gravity, which would be quite relevant. I'm just not convinced our theoretical understanding on this point is enough to eliminate such a possibility.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
OK. You realize a recycling universe is only one of many possibilities, right? it is far from being the default even among those who think a universe/multiverse is eternal.

Also, I would be very skeptical of applying thermodynamics, which is a collection of statistical laws based on quantum mechanics given that we don't have a good theory of quantum gravity, which would be quite relevant. I'm just not convinced our theoretical understanding on this point is enough to eliminate such a possibility.

And then, if there WAS a recycling universe there is still no answer to the existential questions.
But I doubt a recycling universe will be valid in the future - the universe appears to be expanding to the point of tearing itself apart.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
And then, if there WAS a recycling universe there is still no answer to the existential questions.

If the universe is eternal, the existential question becomes less important, I think.

But I doubt a recycling universe will be valid in the future - the universe appears to be expanding to the point of tearing itself apart.

Right. it appears that expansion will continue and accelerate. It may be, though, that when the density gets low enough, new universes spontaneously form from the vacuum. We just don't know.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
If the universe is eternal, the existential question becomes less important, I think.



Right. it appears that expansion will continue and accelerate. It may be, though, that when the density gets low enough, new universes spontaneously form from the vacuum. We just don't know.

This ---- Do 'bouncing universes' have a beginning? (spacedaily.com)
Cyclic universes described under this model must have a beginning, Kinney and Stein conclude.
"People proposed bouncing universes to make the universe infinite into the past, but what we show is that one of the newest types of these models doesn't work," says Kinney, PhD, professor of physics in the UB College of Arts and Sciences. "In this new type of model, which addresses problems with entropy, even if the universe has cycles, it still has to have a beginning."



Q - where did the universe COME FROM?
A - it endlessly recycles
Q - did you answer my question or avoid it?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This ---- Do 'bouncing universes' have a beginning? (spacedaily.com)
Cyclic universes described under this model must have a beginning, Kinney and Stein conclude.
"People proposed bouncing universes to make the universe infinite into the past, but what we show is that one of the newest types of these models doesn't work," says Kinney, PhD, professor of physics in the UB College of Arts and Sciences. "In this new type of model, which addresses problems with entropy, even if the universe has cycles, it still has to have a beginning."



Q - where did the universe COME FROM?
A - it endlessly recycles
Q - did you answer my question or avoid it?

Maybe the problem is that the universe didn't 'come from' anything: it simply exists. So the question is assuming something not in evidence.

Once again, do you realize the 'endlessly cycling' universe is only one of many possible scenarios where the universe is infinitely old?

Bouncing universes is *one* scenario. A multiverse is another. Universes budding off, of developing out of quantum foam, are still others.

Your post questions whether *one* scenario is possible or not. And, like I said, because of the way thermodynamics works, we would need a quantum theory of gravity to really evaluate the possibility.

So, at worst, I see this as showing one particular scenario is less likely than thought.

Oh, and from your article:

"And, of course, there are further research questions, Kinney says: "Our proof does not apply to a cyclic model proposed by Roger Penrose, in which the universe expands infinitely in each cycle. We're working on that one."
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Maybe the problem is that the universe didn't 'come from' anything: it simply exists. So the question is assuming something not in evidence.

Once again, do you realize the 'endlessly cycling' universe is only one of many possible scenarios where the universe is infinitely old?

Bouncing universes is *one* scenario. A multiverse is another. Universes budding off, of developing out of quantum foam, are still others.

Your post questions whether *one* scenario is possible or not. And, like I said, because of the way thermodynamics works, we would need a quantum theory of gravity to really evaluate the possibility.

So, at worst, I see this as showing one particular scenario is less likely than thought.

Oh, and from your article:

"And, of course, there are further research questions, Kinney says: "Our proof does not apply to a cyclic model proposed by Roger Penrose, in which the universe expands infinitely in each cycle. We're working on that one."

Foamy universes still have to come from a parent universe which has to come from ?????????????????
........SOMETHING OR SOMEONE OUTSIDE the laws of physics. And FOR A REASON.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You mean, there was no Abraham 1750 BC
and no Sodom and Gomorah 1650 BC

Abraham is probably a literary creation, William Dever Biblical archaeologist:
"One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived. We do know a lot about pastoral nomads, we know about the Amorites' migrations from Mesopotamia to Canaan, and it's possible to see in that an Abraham-like figure somewhere around 1800 B.C.E. But there's no direct connection."

The towns and cities were not as large as described. Sure they existed. Yahweh is their mythical deity in change.

"
The Bible describes it as a glorious kingdom stretching from Egypt to Mesopotamia. Does archeology back up these descriptions?
The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."




and no Canaanite invasion of Egypt (late Bronze)


I don't know what the Canaanites did before they split into Israelites and Judahites? Some of the Biblical history is true. Smaller than reported. The deities are the main fiction. Like all nations.

The origins of Israel
What have archeologists learned from these settlements about the early Israelites? Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?
The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.

So what we are dealing with is a movement of peoples but not an invasion of an armed corps from the outside. A social and economic revolution, if you will, rather than a military revolution. And it begins a slow process in which the Israelites distinguish themselves from their Canaanite ancestors, particularly in religion—with a new deity, new religious laws and customs, new ethnic markers, as we would call them today.


and no Moses (mass migrations Bronze Age Collapse)
)

No, Exodus isn't likely, Israel came peacefully from Canan. Those are national myths written to unify the people and give them an identity.


Moses is considered a literary creation - "Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[14][15][16][17][18] "
The stories of Moses life are largely stories also found in older Egyptian myths.


and no Joshua's curse on Mount Ebal
and no cultic center at Shiloh (war of the Phillistines)
and no House of David ca 1000 BC
and no House of Omri in Samaria ca 885 BC
and no Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah ?????

I didn't say there were no Israelites, Judahites and the 12 tribes. They has their own mythology like every of the thousands of nations.



And what about Jesus and those of his ministry during Roman times, they didn't exist either ????

There was definitely a ministry. It was at least 50% Gnostic (compltely different theology) until the 3rd century when Rome made a canon official.

The Gospels tell the story of a Jewish version of a popular Greek savior demigod story that most of the mystery religions already had. This comes from Hellenism.

“Christianity is not a Jewish religion, it’s a Hellenistic religion.”


“Jesus is of Jewish ethnicity but is telling the story of a Hellenistic deity”




1:57

Carl A. P. Ruck (born December 8, 1935, Bridgeport, Connecticut), is a professor in the Classical Studies department at Boston University. He received his B.A. at Yale University, his M.A. at the University of Michigan, and a Ph.D. at Harvard University.


There are Persian myths in the NT as well, both Greeks and Persians occupied th eHebrew nation for many decades before the NT was written.

During the period of the Second Temple (c.515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]


The Hellenistic World: The World of Alexander the Great

Hellenistic thought is evident in the narratives which make up the books of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures were revised and canonized during the Second Temple Period (c.515 BCE-70 CE), the latter part of which was during the Hellenic Period of the region. The gospels and epistles of the Christian New Testament were written in Greek and draw on Greek philosophy and religion as, for example, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John in which the word becomes flesh, a Platonic concept.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Abraham is probably a literary creation, William Dever Biblical archaeologist:

You mean, Abraham never existed? Surely we would have found some archaelogy about him by now? I mean, a camel, a tent, a pot... something with Abraham's name stamped on it. But what if we DID find a pot with Abraham's name on it? Well, there's a whole industry of nay-sayers who would tell you, 'Abraham was a common name late Bronze Age.' Game set and match.
But these things are slowly coming to light. Domestic camels DID go back a long way. There WAS a meteoric event in the Jordan Valley. Populations back then WERE a lot higher than we first thought. Hebrews DID have a language in Joshua's day. There WAS a House of David. There WAS a cultic center at Shiloh where the ark was housed, along with evidence of the Mosaic law.
ETC

You will find similarities between the Hebrew religion and other beliefs - there would have been tens of thousands of religious doctrines back then.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You mean, Abraham never existed? Surely we would have found some archaelogy about him by now? I mean, a camel, a tent, a pot... something with Abraham's name stamped on it. But what if we DID find a pot with Abraham's name on it? Well, there's a whole industry of nay-sayers who would tell you, 'Abraham was a common name late Bronze Age.' Game set and match.
But these things are slowly coming to light. Domestic camels DID go back a long way. There WAS a meteoric event in the Jordan Valley. Populations back then WERE a lot higher than we first thought. Hebrews DID have a language in Joshua's day. There WAS a House of David. There WAS a cultic center at Shiloh where the ark was housed, along with evidence of the Mosaic law.
ETC

You will find similarities between the Hebrew religion and other beliefs - there would have been tens of thousands of religious doctrines back then.


NO the populations of Jewish towns was smaller than recorded. A meteor event happened in Tuskunga in 1905 also? So? It may have inspired stories about destroyed towns.
The ark is a story taken from the Epic of Gilamesh.


William Dever:
"
The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."

Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.


Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;


Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.


Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood


Gilamesh - ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.


Noah - And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.




Gilamesh - Gilgamesh, the son of Ninsun, lies in the tomb.



The now famous work by Thomas Thompson in the 70's completely changed the way the Patriarchs were viewed.
https://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Patriarchal-Narratives-Historical-Abraham/dp/1563383896
The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest For The Historical Abraham

"This book is now a classic and belongs in the library of all serious biblical scholars. In the context of the recent battles in biblical archaeology it is worth a new reading, especially by those of the new generation, which only knows the work by reputation and may be surprised by how cautious and reserved it now seems. It is a work that changed the course of historical research on the subject of ancient Israel, and for this reason its author deserves a special place of honor in the history of the discipline of biblical studies."—John Van Seeters, Review of Biblical Literature,

Completely dismantles the historic patriarchal narratives. His impeccable scholarship, his astounding mastery of the sources, and rigorous detailed examination of the archaeological claims makes this book one I will immediately take with me in case of a flood. And it still hasn't been refuted. I am well aware of the excellent work of William G. Dever, and his critique of the "minimalists" and his harping against Thompson, but it is his other books Dever has the most beef against. This one stands stellar and strong. I was absolutely bowled over by it. T





27:35

Hebrew Bible Professor Fransesca S. on Moses historicity



20:28
Professor Stavrakopoulou on Genesis.


8:45,
Professor Stavrakopoulou on the origins of Yahweh. 500 B.C. was when the modern conceptions of Yahweh slowly began
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
NO the populations of Jewish towns was smaller than recorded. A meteor event happened in Tuskunga in 1905 also? So? It may have inspired stories about destroyed towns.

Google 'Timnah Valley' It's the first real evidence for there being seriously large populations in the Iron Age Levant. Most of these people did not live in towns.
Google 'Sodom Tall el-Hammam 2020', the destruction of the Jordan Valley by an air burst ca 1650 BC, and event Abraham witnessed.
Google 'Joshua curse table Mt Ebal' to read how Hebrews in Moses' day DID have a written language
Google 'DNA Aaron haplotype Cohen' to read about the genetic line to Moses

You need to update your sources.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Google 'Timnah Valley' It's the first real evidence for there being seriously large populations in the Iron Age Levant. Most of these people did not live in towns.
Google 'Sodom Tall el-Hammam 2020', the destruction of the Jordan Valley by an air burst ca 1650 BC, and event Abraham witnessed.
Google 'Joshua curse table Mt Ebal' to read how Hebrews in Moses' day DID have a written language
Google 'DNA Aaron haplotype Cohen' to read about the genetic line to Moses

You need to update your sources.
No, his sources are fine. Legends often have some basis in facts. A meteorite may have destroyed a city of about eight thousand. But there is no evidence that Abrham saw it or even existed.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No, his sources are fine. Legends often have some basis in facts. A meteorite may have destroyed a city of about eight thousand. But there is no evidence that Abrham saw it or even existed.

No mention of the other points
Re Sodom - here we see a retreat from the 'It never happened' to 'Ok it happened but it doesn't prove....'
What WOULD it take to 'prove' Abraham's biblical story? Basically, nothing - even if we show people rode camels, even if we found Melchizadek, even if we found the grave of his wives.... nothing will satisfy the critic. Guilty until proven innocent is a saying about proving biblical things.
But believing in Hannibal - heck, we have TWO WRITERS...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No mention of the other points
Re Sodom - here we see a retreat from the 'It never happened' to 'Ok it happened but it doesn't prove....'
What WOULD it take to 'prove' Abraham's biblical story? Basically, nothing - even if we show people rode camels, even if we found Melchizadek, even if we found the grave of his wives.... nothing will satisfy the critic. Guilty until proven innocent is a saying about proving biblical things.
But believing in Hannibal - heck, we have TWO WRITERS...
No, that is not a retreat. The myth is still a myth. You are also underplaying the evidence for Hannibal. You and I both know it. The tales of Genesis are all anonymous.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No, that is not a retreat. The myth is still a myth. You are also underplaying the evidence for Hannibal. You and I both know it. The tales of Genesis are all anonymous.

Well, it's quite possible that the biggest event in Abraham's life, the destruction of the Jordan Plains, actually happened.
Now, not sure how someone wove a myth about this over a thousand years later.
And the story of Shiloh was long forgotten too - Shiloh was nothing more than a hill centuries before the putative date for the writing of Samuel.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well, it's quite possible that the biggest event in Abraham's life, the destruction of the Jordan Plains, actually happened.
Now, not sure how someone wove a myth about this over a thousand years later.
And the story of Shiloh was long forgotten too - Shiloh was nothing more than a hill centuries before the putative date for the writing of Samuel.
You appear to be forgetting the myth yourself and you misunderstood your own source to boot. The "destruction" was limited to one small town. There is no evidence that the town was Sodom of Gomorrah.

You are merely making an ad hoc explanation. That is one without evidence.
 
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