Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

[PruePhillip]

Christianity changes over time: early Christians were mainly Jewish until Paul came along to change things. The exact nature of Jesus humanity and divinity was hotly debated for centuries, a debate that was current when the books of the new testament were chosen by one side. The other side had a *different* list of 'sacred texts' that they advocated. Other branches of Christianity denied the trinity (Nestorians--historically very important).

Those that lived just after Jesus would not have recognized Christianity 500 years later, let alone what it is now.

Those 'simple edicts' have been debated, argued, and interpreted in many different ways over time. What it means to be a Christian has similarly been debated: is it simply a matter of faith? of deeds? or does the heart need to change? The answers vary over time and place, even among 'good Christians'.

This is why it often seems disingenuous to say that Christians cannot do this or that. Those that *defined* what Christianity is did those things. They thought they were following the dictates of Jesus. They just disagreed with what you think those dictates decreed.

One of the most significant themes of the Coming Messiah in the Old Testament is that this Messiah will go out to the Gentiles, and the era of the Jewish nation will end.
Thus Jacob could speak of a future Hebew nation, but it will end with the Messiah who will be believed upon of the Gentiles.
And Zechariah wrote the future Messianic King is the same lowly man the Jews killed.

 

[Polymath257]

One of the most significant themes of the Coming Messiah in the Old Testament is that this Messiah will go out to the Gentiles, and the era of the Jewish nation will end.

And, interestingly enough, Jesus didn't seem to mention that. he specifically stated that his message was only to the Jews (althogh he made exceptions).

Thus Jacob could speak of a future Hebew nation, but it will end with the Messiah who will be believed upon of the Gentiles.
And Zechariah wrote the future Messianic King is the same lowly man the Jews killed.

Once again, it is easy enough to twist vague words to match whatever is happening at any time you want. This is why 'prophesies' are usually useless: they can be interpreted in so many different ways.

Anyway, we have diverged quite widely from the topic of this thread. Maybe this should be in a different thread. Do you have anything to say about the Big Bang?

 

[wellwisher]

One of the most significant themes of the Coming Messiah in the Old Testament is that this Messiah will go out to the Gentiles, and the era of the Jewish nation will end.
Thus Jacob could speak of a future Hebew nation, but it will end with the Messiah who will be believed upon of the Gentiles.
And Zechariah wrote the future Messianic King is the same lowly man the Jews killed.

Before Jesus began his ministry he went to the desert to fast and pray. He was approached by Satan who among other things promised Jesus all the power and riches of the kingdoms of the earth. Had Jesus accepted this offer, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful. When Jesus declines the offer, he became too lowly to be seen as the expected Messiah.

This refusal by Jesus to become the classic Messiah, by serving Satan, led to a political battle in Heaven, since Jesus broke the future that Satan had set up on earth. Jesus also challenged his authority. This would lead to a battle in Heaven with Satan thrown from heaven with 1/3 of the angels.

Satan had been condoned in heaven during the Old and New Testament until the prophesy of Revelations. Satan was the CEO and Lord of the Earth and had the authority over humans and earth. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve and had a rapport with human so he was given authority over the earth. Satan could have made Jesus the expected Messiah, with his earthy things. But after Jesus refused that role, the political structure of heaven was shaken, with Jesus wanting Satan's CEO job. Satan is banished from heaven. Jesus would have the seat at the big table, next the chairman of the Board; God.

Satan banished from heaven implies that knowledge of good and evil and law is no longer divinely sanctioned, but is detached from Heaven, like Satan. Law becomes more self serving and can even be used to protect the criminals; law and injustice systems. Congress makes a law saying there is no insider trading while exempting themselves by another law. Law can be used for evil and injustice. Dictators will make laws so they can maintain control and feel less paranoid. When Satan was part of heaven such behavior was part of a bigger picture. But after Satan is removed from heaven, it is all manmade without divine approval. It is not clear if and when Satan was been given the boot.

 

[YoursTrue]

I do not know what kind of kingdom did Jesus want, Ruled by himself (aka 'Rama Rajya' in Hinduism, ruled by Rama)?These are personal views. Someone could say exactly that for your posts, though I find them interesting and quaint (not that I have read Watts).

I thought maybe Watts had some insight, but frankly, I found him offsetting in that his take on things was very esoteric, meaning I can't even say spiritual because it was like a bag filled with air and then saying it's something we should concentrate on. That's my description.
Now as for as the kingdom Jesus spoke of in his prayer. That prayer is fairly well known, often called the "Our Father" prayer, or the "Lord's prayer." And it asks that God's kingdom comes. Something like this: "Our father in heaven, hallowed be your name." (In modern English we would say more like 'let your name be sanctified,' or made holy or blessed.) Then he followed that up by saying, "Let your kingdom come." Let's stop there for a moment and discuss what is a kingdom. There are many points here, but a kingdom is basically a governmental arrangement. (right?)
I'll wait for you to read the above for me to answer.

 

[YoursTrue]

Or run the church, dictate what it teaches, and determine what is in the books.

Think about it.

Yes, I have but not for long because it's obvious that there are many rich men and I suppose women that are prime figures in religion. Yet Jesus was not rich. He did not live luxuriously. Plus the book (the Bible) was put together by God's spirit--holy spirit. Considering the books that are apocrypha, there have been studies made which show these were not inspired by God.
But on another level, it is interesting that the prophet Isaiah wrote that Babylon would fall. And I researched this and I realize some say it was written after Babylon the great city fell. I see no account for this. I will, say that the city of ancient Babylon lies in ruins, just as the prophet foretold.

 

[YoursTrue]

Before Jesus began his ministry he went to the desert to fast and pray. He was approached by Satan who among other things promised Jesus all the power and riches of the kingdoms of the earth. Had Jesus accepted this offer, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful. When Jesus declines the offer, he became too lowly to be seen as the expected Messiah.

This refusal by Jesus to become the classic Messiah, by serving Satan, led to a political battle in Heaven, since Jesus broke the future that Satan had set up on earth. Jesus also challenged his authority. This would lead to a battle in Heaven with Satan thrown from heaven with 1/3 of the angels.

Satan had been condoned in heaven during the Old and New Testament until the prophesy of Revelations. Satan was the CEO and Lord of the Earth and had the authority over humans and earth. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve and had a rapport with human so he was given authority over the earth. Satan could have made Jesus the expected Messiah, with his earthy things. But after Jesus refused that role, the political structure of heaven was shaken, with Jesus wanting Satan's CEO job. Satan is banished from heaven. Jesus would have the seat at the big table, next the chairman of the Board; God.

Satan banished from heaven implies that knowledge of good and evil and law is no longer divinely sanctioned, but is detached from Heaven, like Satan. Law becomes more self serving and can even be used to protect the criminals; law and injustice systems. Congress makes a law saying there is no insider trading while exempting themselves by another law. Law can be used for evil and injustice. Dictators will make laws so they can maintain control and feel less paranoid. When Satan was part of heaven such behavior was part of a bigger picture. But after Satan is removed from heaven, it is all manmade without divine approval. It is not clear if and when Satan was been given the boot.

You make some interesting points. Jesus did not tell Satan when he offered him all the kingdoms of the world, 'hey, wait a minute, you don't control all these kingdoms!' How do you feel about this?
And couple that with the serpent's offer to Eve that she would be free of God's law if she did what God told her not to do.

 

[YoursTrue]

And if the Bible is supposed to be a source of morality, would you not expect it to condemn slavery clearly in spite of the beliefs of those around? it did so in many other ways (condemning pagans, for example).

Don't forget that Socrates lived 400 years before Jesus and the Stoics started 200+ years before. yes, somehow, slavery was not on Jesus' (God's) radar.

Which is worse? Slavery or paganism?



And take these things and ask how things were 200 years ago. Or 500. You will find that even minimum wage is *far* better than the average lifestyle possible when religion was in charge. Robbing people of benefits? Have you ever heard how medieval society was set up? it was the *church* that took most of the resources to glorify itself. And the royalty didn't pay taxes at all. But that was a system favored by God (according to those in power).

Debt? Have you ever heard of debtors prisons? Not only were those in debt kept that way, there were put in prison on top of it. At least now there is a possibility of debt forgiveness and getting a decent job.

Life has 8always* been cruel and hard for the vast majority of people. if anything, it has been getting better since we stopped thinking it was all 'Gods plan' and started taking matters into our own hands; trying to fix the evils instead of enduring them.

Jesus did very little. And, if Jesus was God incarnate, that means God did very little. Which eitheDr means God is powerless or evil (or non-existent).

Jesus worked with the times. Jesus was human. He was killed. As you know by this time, I no longer believe in evolution or what is called the "Big Bang" as if it all 'just happened,' Therefore, the Bible makes far more sense to me than those theories.
Jesus did not have the power to change everything to goodness at that time.

 

[ppp]

Jesus worked with the times.

Not an excuse.

 

[Polymath257]

Jesus worked with the times. Jesus was human. He was killed. As you know by this time, I no longer believe in evolution or what is called the "Big Bang" as if it all 'just happened,' Therefore, the Bible makes far more sense to me than those theories.
Jesus did not have the power to change everything to goodness at that time.

You don't believe those theories, but you haven't actually looked at the evidence. You haven't actually studied the science at any real depth.

it isn't a matter of 'just happened' or not. it is a question of 'what happened'. If you want to add a God belief on top of the science, nobody is going to complain. For that matter, if you want to ignore the evidence and believe anything you choose, nobody is going to deny you have that right. They will simply dismiss your beliefs as irrelevant at that point.

Your God did not have the power to control goodness at that time? Even to the extent of forcefully vocalizing a real moral position? Instead, the whole message was 'believe me or things will be very bad for you'.

Sorry, but rule from fear needs to be opposed. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don't believe those theories, but you haven't actually looked at the evidence. You haven't actually studied the science at any real depth.

it isn't a matter of 'just happened' or not. it is a question of 'what happened'. If you want to add a God belief on top of the science, nobody is going to complain. For that matter, if you want to ignore the evidence and believe anything you choose, nobody is going to deny you have that right. They will simply dismiss your beliefs as irrelevant at that point.

Your God did not have the power to control goodness at that time? Even to the extent of forcefully vocalizing a real moral position? Instead, the whole message was 'believe me or things will be very bad for you'.

Sorry, but rule from fear needs to be opposed. At least, that's how I see it.

I've read as much as I could, especially after getting started with these types of threads. Only conjectures can be made as to "what happened," especially when it comes to the beginning of life on earth. And, of course, thereafter. It seems logical, but -- there's no proof that evolution really happened.
And despite the fact that some would say, oh, we're not talking about abiogenesis, there is no doubt that is what is the suggested foundation, because it takes molecules and atoms to build the blocks that make an organism. And even if they flew in from outer space, or steamed up from the ocean, there is no evidence that it happened. Again, claims to the contrary, there is no evidence of any sort that humans and gorillas have an "unknown common ancestor." Or that different molecules formed together to make grass while others make animals.
Whether you like it or not, no one would be alive without the mechanisms instilled by God. I believe that the times posited by scientists are wrong about the life existence of homo sapiens.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don't believe those theories, but you haven't actually looked at the evidence. You haven't actually studied the science at any real depth.

it isn't a matter of 'just happened' or not. it is a question of 'what happened'. If you want to add a God belief on top of the science, nobody is going to complain. For that matter, if you want to ignore the evidence and believe anything you choose, nobody is going to deny you have that right. They will simply dismiss your beliefs as irrelevant at that point.

Your God did not have the power to control goodness at that time? Even to the extent of forcefully vocalizing a real moral position? Instead, the whole message was 'believe me or things will be very bad for you'.

Sorry, but rule from fear needs to be opposed. At least, that's how I see it.

As far as fear goes, the real promise is love. To love God and neighbor. It is one thing to love a parent, and when a child loves a parent, they don't want to hurt them. In fact, they fear hurting them, because they love them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then he followed that up by saying, "Let your kingdom come." Let's stop there for a moment and discuss what is a kingdom. There are many points here, but a kingdom is basically a governmental arrangement. (right?)
I'll wait for you to read the above for me to answer.

Sure, it was to be God's kingdom and Jesus ruling it as his vassal. If you have heard the name of Udaipur in India - the king ruled in the name of his deity, 'Ek ling ji' (Shiva). I do not know if Jesus wanted that kind of kingdom - and failed. That is what the people in Masada also tried for. Who would not want a kingdom for himself if one is not a Buddha or Mahavira?

Apparently, he was influenced by what Jacob is supposed to have said. I quote your statement:
"Thus Jacob could speak of a future Hebrew nation, but it will end with the Messiah who will be believed upon of the Gentiles."

Ekling ji Temple

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jesus did not have the power to change everything to goodness at that time.

Perhaps God himself did not want all that goodness. If all was good, what would remain for God to do? Jesus would have made God redundant. That is why God called Jesus back. Till the last moment, Jesus was asking God to let him do what he had come for, but God did not relent.

As far as fear goes, the real promise is love. To love God and neighbor. It is one thing to love a parent, and when a child loves a parent, they don't want to hurt them. In fact, they fear hurting them, because they love them.

Cursing of cities does not show that love. Just go through that passage.

 

[YoursTrue]

And if the Bible is supposed to be a source of morality, would you not expect it to condemn slavery clearly in spite of the beliefs of those around? it did so in many other ways (condemning pagans, for example).

Don't forget that Socrates lived 400 years before Jesus and the Stoics started 200+ years before. yes, somehow, slavery was not on Jesus' (God's) radar.

Which is worse? Slavery or paganism?



And take these things and ask how things were 200 years ago. Or 500. You will find that even minimum wage is *far* better than the average lifestyle possible when religion was in charge. Robbing people of benefits? Have you ever heard how medieval society was set up? it was the *church* that took most of the resources to glorify itself. And the royalty didn't pay taxes at all. But that was a system favored by God (according to those in power).

Debt? Have you ever heard of debtors prisons? Not only were those in debt kept that way, there were put in prison on top of it. At least now there is a possibility of debt forgiveness and getting a decent job.

Life has 8always* been cruel and hard for the vast majority of people. if anything, it has been getting better since we stopped thinking it was all 'Gods plan' and started taking matters into our own hands; trying to fix the evils instead of enduring them.

Jesus did very little. And, if Jesus was God incarnate, that means God did very little. Which either means God is powerless or evil (or non-existent).

Jesus was not God incarnate. That is a misleading teaching by many religions claiming to be Christian.
Jesus went by the times and did not work against the governments, but told his disciples to be kind, even to legal slaves. Meantime I'm telling you that we are all slaves to an extent. Interesting that even rich people can be prosecuted for crimes and put in jail, legally that is. Rules change. Laws change.
Jesus was NOT God incarnate, he was the Son of God who was in heaven and obediently came to the earth out of love for the Father and mankind.
If the Son sets a person free, he is free. This is what Jesus said about slavery, speaking to the Jews -- John 8.
"Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring* and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?” 34 Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin. 35 Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free."

 

[Aupmanyav]

36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free."

So, not the father, but they have to be slaves of the son. Jesus was rebelling. Naturally, Jews did not follow him.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure, it was to be God's kingdom and Jesus ruling it as his vassal. If you have heard the name of Udaipur in India - the king ruled in the name of his deity, 'Ek ling ji' (Shiva). I do not know if Jesus wanted that kind of kingdom - and failed. That is what the people in Masada also tried for. Who would not want a kingdom for himself if one is not a Buddha or Mahavira?

Apparently, he was influenced by what Jacob is supposed to have said. I quote your statement:
"Thus Jacob could speak of a future Hebrew nation, but it will end with the Messiah who will be believed upon of the Gentiles."

Ekling ji Temple

Jesus was speaking of a future for those who love and fear God that would encompass absolute happiness forever. But I remind you Adam and Eve were created to live on the earth and the earth will be made a paradise.

So, not the father, but they have to be slaves of the son. Jesus was rebelling. Naturally, Jews did not follow him.

He overturned the teachings that went against God's righteousness and the Law of Moses. Not all would listen to him, obviously. His first followers were Jews. I'm sure you remember that he was accused of making himself God because of his special relationship with the Father. Reading it carefully, he did not make himself God. But that's another story.

 

[YoursTrue]

Perhaps God himself did not want all that goodness. If all was good, what would remain for God to do? Jesus would have made God redundant. That is why God called Jesus back. Till the last moment, Jesus was asking God to let him do what he had come for, but God did not relent.Cursing of cities does not show that love. Just go through that passage.

Cities, especially at that time, had a ruler. Look at what's going on now in the Ukraine. It isn't just a country, but ruler against ruler.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don't believe those theories, but you haven't actually looked at the evidence. You haven't actually studied the science at any real depth.

it isn't a matter of 'just happened' or not. it is a question of 'what happened'. If you want to add a God belief on top of the science, nobody is going to complain. For that matter, if you want to ignore the evidence and believe anything you choose, nobody is going to deny you have that right. They will simply dismiss your beliefs as irrelevant at that point.

Your God did not have the power to control goodness at that time? Even to the extent of forcefully vocalizing a real moral position? Instead, the whole message was 'believe me or things will be very bad for you'.

Sorry, but rule from fear needs to be opposed. At least, that's how I see it.

Speaking of fear, most parents worry (good parents, that is) when their children start driving.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, not the father, but they have to be slaves of the son. Jesus was rebelling. Naturally, Jews did not follow him.

Aside from the fact that his first disciples were Jews, don't forget that because of his teachings, he was put up as someone who was against Caesar, which he was not. I was born a woman. Not a man. Women are different from men. They are? yes, they are. According to the Bible, both sexes have their function and instructions. They're not the same. Anyway, it's time for me to sign off for a while although it's been nice speaking with you.

 

[PruePhillip]

Before Jesus began his ministry he went to the desert to fast and pray. He was approached by Satan who among other things promised Jesus all the power and riches of the kingdoms of the earth. Had Jesus accepted this offer, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful. When Jesus declines the offer, he became too lowly to be seen as the expected Messiah.

This refusal by Jesus to become the classic Messiah, by serving Satan, led to a political battle in Heaven, since Jesus broke the future that Satan had set up on earth. Jesus also challenged his authority. This would lead to a battle in Heaven with Satan thrown from heaven with 1/3 of the angels.

Satan had been condoned in heaven during the Old and New Testament until the prophesy of Revelations. Satan was the CEO and Lord of the Earth and had the authority over humans and earth. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve and had a rapport with human so he was given authority over the earth. Satan could have made Jesus the expected Messiah, with his earthy things. But after Jesus refused that role, the political structure of heaven was shaken, with Jesus wanting Satan's CEO job. Satan is banished from heaven. Jesus would have the seat at the big table, next the chairman of the Board; God.

Satan banished from heaven implies that knowledge of good and evil and law is no longer divinely sanctioned, but is detached from Heaven, like Satan. Law becomes more self serving and can even be used to protect the criminals; law and injustice systems. Congress makes a law saying there is no insider trading while exempting themselves by another law. Law can be used for evil and injustice. Dictators will make laws so they can maintain control and feel less paranoid. When Satan was part of heaven such behavior was part of a bigger picture. But after Satan is removed from heaven, it is all manmade without divine approval. It is not clear if and when Satan was been given the boot.

Sir, you just made that up or read someone's fiction.