Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

[YoursTrue]

Which, if the culture was maintained, would be a possibility.

The difference is that Judaism maintained its culture in the midst of other cultures.



And just how much is the current culture similar to the ancient one? Oh, I'm sure there are some points of contact, but not as many as the propagandists would like.

Now the question is, how as why were those scriptures eventually put in the Bible canon written? The started with Moses for basically one group of people straight through centuries up through Jesus and the apostles.

 

[YoursTrue]

And is it any less absurd to say that God created himself?

Frankly my dear (words from Gone With the Wind), if we didn't have the Bible the situation would be worse than it is now

 

[Twilight Hue]

The only eternal constant without beginning or end is God. I can't say I understand how someone can have no beginning but I do believe it. To me that is not contradictory.bBecause arhough I don't understand it, I think it has to be that way. Because nothing else, including energy, makes sense to me in terms of God and how did the universe come about.

God to me is the anthropomorphism of the natural processes that prevades nature in flux and the qualities of its dynamics.

It's not hard to see this as not having a beginning in terms that energy is pervasive throughout, and as Alan Watts liked to put it, "nature is wiggly".

Unceasing movement and vibration, for which it's impossible for anything to perfectly stand still that enables energy to form mass out of essentially 'nothing' , hence mass energy.

 

[joelr]

For sure, understanding a supposed 'multi-verse', like string theory, might happen, or not. But a multi-verse is a part of the physical system, the universe, nature, whatever. What preceded the physical world is beyond science. Saying the universe created itself before it existed is actually MORE absurd than saying God created it.

Yes it's beyond science. A mere few hundred years ago so was the incredibly small quantum realm, galaxies, clusters, super clusters, super super clusters, filaments of super clusters and a possible multi verse.
We are not in a special place in time where we know everything. Every single time God was plced at the frontier of knowledge. When the orbits of the planets had some gaps in the knowledge, that was God. God took care of that last bit we didn't understand. Until we figured it out.
One of the famous astronomers from the Middle Ages actually handed off the orbit problem to God.
So it's probably all science that we don't yet understand.

 

[PruePhillip]

Which, if the culture was maintained, would be a possibility.

The difference is that Judaism maintained its culture in the midst of other cultures.



And just how much is the current culture similar to the ancient one? Oh, I'm sure there are some points of contact, but not as many as the propagandists would like.

The return of the Jews - sure, they drive cars instead of donkeys, but the prophecy wasn't about donkeys, or sandles, or swords - it was about the Jews returning. This was a common source of hilarity in the late 1800's when Zionism because a very real thing. Jews at this point saw themselves as German, or French, or English. And Palestine was literally dirt poor, ocupied by Arabs and ruled over by Turks.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes it's beyond science. A mere few hundred years ago so was the incredibly small quantum realm, galaxies, clusters, super clusters, super super clusters, filaments of super clusters and a possible multi verse.
We are not in a special place in time where we know everything. Every single time God was plced at the frontier of knowledge. When the orbits of the planets had some gaps in the knowledge, that was God. God took care of that last bit we didn't understand. Until we figured it out.
One of the famous astronomers from the Middle Ages actually handed off the orbit problem to God.
So it's probably all science that we don't yet understand.

Not quite so.
The bible had nothing to say about HOW things go, only how to go to heaven. Paraphrasing Galileo.
Science is the study of the physical world - religion is for a different realm.

 

[joelr]

Not quite so.
The bible had nothing to say about HOW things go, only how to go to heaven. Paraphrasing Galileo.
Science is the study of the physical world - religion is for a different realm.

Yes, religion is for the realm of fiction. Heaven as a destination for souls is a Greek myth adopted during the 2nd Temple Period by the Hebrews. Using a savior deity as salvation is also a Greek Hellenistic myth adopted during the same period.

During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Wright and Sanders are excellent historians but this is standard historicity.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, religion is for the realm of fiction. Heaven as a destination for souls is a Greek myth adopted during the 2nd Temple Period by the Hebrews. Using a savior deity as salvation is also a Greek Hellenistic myth adopted during the same period.

During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Wright and Sanders are excellent historians but this is standard historicity.

Amazing that Jews in the 'second temple period' knew so much about Bronze Age culture, places, monarchs and events that Jews of later centuries had no idea about. Maybe they just copied their 'fiction' from earlier books?

 

[Polymath257]

The only eternal constant without beginning or end is God. I can't say I understand how someone can have no beginning but I do believe it. To me that is not contradictory.bBecause arhough I don't understand it, I think it has to be that way. Because nothing else, including energy, makes sense to me in terms of God and how did the universe come about.

And yet, you have difficulty with a universe/multiverse with no beginning? What's the difference, except that God is even more of a stretch?

 

[Polymath257]

Frankly my dear (words from Gone With the Wind), if we didn't have the Bible the situation would be worse than it is now

Oh, I very much disagree. Throw out the Bible and you throw out slavery, bigotry, self-aggrandizement, misogyny, parochialism, and many other evils. There have been many much better ethical systems. Greece and Rome alone accounted for several.

Like 'Gone with the Wind', it is a glorification of a fundamentally unethical system that needs to expire.

 

[PruePhillip]

Oh, I very much disagree. Throw out the Bible and you throw out slavery, bigotry, self-aggrandizement, misogyny, parochialism, and many other evils. There have been many much better ethical systems. Greece and Rome alone accounted for several.

Like 'Gone with the Wind', it is a glorification of a fundamentally unethical system that needs to expire.

Been watching a video about slavery in the Middle East. Ten million Africans were slaves, so too were many Europeans, Indians and Persians.
Islam sought to moderate the practice, as Judaism did, but the author made the point, paraphrasing him - 'You can say you will ban slavery but you may as well say you will ban poverty.'
The Abrahamic faiths did not invent slavery. They didn't invent riding on donkey's backs either. They didn't invent killing an animal to eat it. They didn't invent crime. They didn't invent adultery. They didn't invent warfare. --------- nor were they ever going to be able to stop these practices.

This drug addled, adulterous, child porn generation is not going to preach to other generations how to live the good life.

 

[gnostic]

Been watching a video about slavery in the Middle East. Ten million Africans were slaves, so too were many Europeans, Indians and Persians.
Islam sought to moderate the practice, as Judaism did, but the author made the point, paraphrasing him - 'You can say you will ban slavery but you may as well say you will ban poverty.'

It is still condoning slavery.

And Islamic empires didn’t moderate it, they profit from them and exploit them, especially war prisoners. They have history of invading the lands that don’t belong them, and women, especially taken for their beauty, were forcibly taken and made as sex slaves and concubines.

You are kidding yourself when you think people are better off being slaves, no matter what religions accept these practices.

You are condoning the practices, by making excuses as you do now, that’s is okay for certain situations, especially when Christian, Jewish or Islamic scriptures legalized slavery.

Plus, history have shown that religious people are just as corruptible as anyone else, for instances, using the scriptures to exploit their religious laws and religious morals and ethics.

This is why the Bible and the Quran are pathetically and draconian outdated in their laws, and in their morals and ethic.

 

[PruePhillip]

This is why the Bible and the Quran are pathetically and draconian outdated in their laws, and in their morals and ethic.

Outdated you say?
I noted the 'morals and ethics' taken from USA's Gallop poll below.
It did not take on board child porn, drugs and prostitution - the half trillion dollar per annum American industries that China will never compete.

 

[gnostic]

Frankly my dear (words from Gone With the Wind), if we didn't have the Bible the situation would be worse than it is now

Really?

Christians have history of using the Bible to justify killing Jews or driving them out of their homes, towns or kingdoms, especially during the times of poverty, drought and famines, wars, and during pestilence (eg the 14th century Black Death).

Jews were treated like witches, during the crusades and during inquisitions. They justify because they blame Jews for Jesus for being crucified, hence they are often were scapegoats.

The persecutions of Jews in Europe, goes as far back as the 6th & 7th centuries Visigothic kingdom in the Iberian peninsula (Spain & Portugal), before the arrival of the Moors. But these persecutions spread beyond Spain, throughout the Middle Ages.

Then there are the wars between east and west Roman churches, and between Catholics and Protestants (eg Reformation and Counter Reformation, and the 17th century Thirty Years’ War, which had highest casualties before World War I).

Even now we have stupid and bigoted preachers, still using the Bible as warmongering propaganda tools.

 

[gnostic]

Outdated you say?
I noted the 'morals and ethics' taken from USA's Gallop poll below.
It did not take on board child porn, drugs and prostitution - the half trillion dollar per annum American industries that China will never compete.

There are much Christians in the US, then any other groups. There are more Christians in prisoner who have committed crimes, including rapes, child porns, drugs and prostitution.

And you are forgetting that all sides, Catholics, Protestants and Anglicans have history of covering up clergies and teachers from church-sponsored schools of pedophilia, or clergymen sexually assaulting women.

So don’t give me this BS that being Christians are good guys by-default. They can just be as corruptible as non-Christians.

And you are forgetting in Central America and South America, the drug lords and drug traffickers are mainly Christians, in these regions.

 

[Polymath257]

Been watching a video about slavery in the Middle East. Ten million Africans were slaves, so too were many Europeans, Indians and Persians.
Islam sought to moderate the practice, as Judaism did, but the author made the point, paraphrasing him - 'You can say you will ban slavery but you may as well say you will ban poverty.'

Is that all you have? Poverty is a misallocation of resources, driven by greed of those in power, not a direct subjugation of individuals to ownership by another.

Yes, poverty is horrible. But banning it and banning slavery are not comparable issues.

The Abrahamic faiths did not invent slavery. They didn't invent riding on donkey's backs either. They didn't invent killing an animal to eat it. They didn't invent crime. They didn't invent adultery. They didn't invent warfare. --------- nor were they ever going to be able to stop these practices.

No, they did not. And neither did they argue forcefully against slavery. Since their deity is supposed to be the source of morality, that leaves quite a problem.

This drug addled, adulterous, child porn generation is not going to preach to other generations how to live the good life.

Every age has had issues with drugs (or alcohol) and with unfaithfulness. Every generation has had those who abused children.

Our technology makes these more extreme now, I would agree, but the problems are not new by a long shot.

But we have made some progress. We no longer consider women to be property nor that they need to be hidden when they have their period. We no longer consider slavery as necessary and divinely given. We no longer consider any deviation from a societal norm to be worthy of torture and persecution. We no longer consider it good enough to say 'God orders it' as an excuse to harm others.

Oh, there are exceptions; those who cling to outmoded views and traditions that hate. But each generation is getting a bit better on these matters.

And even when dealing with the evils you point out, it is *far* more likely that a child abuser will be motivated by religion or find refuge in such. How often are drugs turned to because parents reject their children for religious reasons or to salve the wounds given by fanatical parents?

Humans are quite far from being perfect. But adherence to a morality based on religious ideas from 2000+ years ago isn't going to help us with the problems of today.

 

[PruePhillip]

Is that all you have? Poverty is a misallocation of resources, driven by greed of those in power, not a direct subjugation of individuals to ownership by another.

Yes, poverty is horrible. But banning it and banning slavery are not comparable issues.

Povery is not necessarily a resource allocation - mostly it's an environment (drought, poor soil, floods, war etc) or technology issue (no electricity, wooden ox driven plows, harvesting by hand etc..)
I am opposed to the Marxist view of poverty as 'oppression' - Marxism is always seeing oppressor/oppressed narratives, be it economics, sex or race.

 

[PruePhillip]

Is that all you have? Poverty is a misallocation of resources, driven by greed of those in power, not a direct subjugation of individuals to ownership by another.

Yes, poverty is horrible. But banning it and banning slavery are not comparable issues.



No, they did not. And neither did they argue forcefully against slavery. Since their deity is supposed to be the source of morality, that leaves quite a problem.



Every age has had issues with drugs (or alcohol) and with unfaithfulness. Every generation has had those who abused children.

Our technology makes these more extreme now, I would agree, but the problems are not new by a long shot.

But we have made some progress. We no longer consider women to be property nor that they need to be hidden when they have their period. We no longer consider slavery as necessary and divinely given. We no longer consider any deviation from a societal norm to be worthy of torture and persecution. We no longer consider it good enough to say 'God orders it' as an excuse to harm others.

Oh, there are exceptions; those who cling to outmoded views and traditions that hate. But each generation is getting a bit better on these matters.

And even when dealing with the evils you point out, it is *far* more likely that a child abuser will be motivated by religion or find refuge in such. How often are drugs turned to because parents reject their children for religious reasons or to salve the wounds given by fanatical parents?

Humans are quite far from being perfect. But adherence to a morality based on religious ideas from 2000+ years ago isn't going to help us with the problems of today.

In the Christian faith there should be no slavery. Where it did happen during colonial times it wasn't driven by Christian ideas but in BREACH of those ideals.
The best and most gentle summaries of Christian thought are given by Paul in his letter to Philemon. Here the escaped slave was as worthy of human dignity as Paul was. Paul sent the slave back to Philemon,but asked that Philemon treat his slave as if the slave was Paul himself.
Here there was respect for the law. And in Greek Roman society the law permitted slavery. It also permitted divorce, homosexuality and warfare. But it wasn't the Christian's place to be a social activist and change the world - the Christian had to change him or herself. And it says somewhere in scripture,to the effect, 'He who leads into captivity will be led into captivity.'

 

[PruePhillip]

There are much Christians in the US, then any other groups. There are more Christians in prisoner who have committed crimes, including rapes, child porns, drugs and prostitution.

And you are forgetting that all sides, Catholics, Protestants and Anglicans have history of covering up clergies and teachers from church-sponsored schools of pedophilia, or clergymen sexually assaulting women.

So don’t give me this BS that being Christians are good guys by-default. They can just be as corruptible as non-Christians.

And you are forgetting in Central America and South America, the drug lords and drug traffickers are mainly Christians, in these regions.

Sure, and you could say Hitler was a 'Christian' but here we come to the crucial point - what is a Christian?
And that answer is simple - someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God who came to redeem us from sin. And in accordance with this belief seeks to change their behavior and live by the standard of Jesus.
By this simple definition most of the above are not Christians per se but rather, CULTURAL CHRISTIANS. That is, someone who holds the golden rule or observes Christmas etc. but isn't prepared to take the observance beyond that.

 

[gnostic]

Sure, and you could say Hitler was a 'Christian' but here we come to the crucial point - what is a Christian?

I didn't bring up Hitler, but there are long history of persecutions of Jews, in the medieval Germanic states and the holy roman empire (an empirr which was ruled by the Austrian dynasty, the Hapsburg).

The mass persecution in central Europe, which led to mass migration in the 15th & 16th centuries, from the Germanic regions to Poland, where Jews found refuge, a safe haven.

Imagine, @PruePhillip, acouple of decades after the dissolution of Austrian dynasty at the outbreak of world war 1, the Nazi gain control of government in the 1930s, followed by German invasion of Poland in 1939.

The former holy Roman empire, which included Austria have always been pro-Catholics, and Hitler being Austrian, then I am not surprise by the Nazi policy against Jews.

The largest genocide against Jews occurred in Poland.

By what you have just said to me, I am not at all surprise of your ignorance about German history toward Jews, predated the Nazi Holocaust.

BTW, I am not saying Catholic church supported the persecutions, but they didn't stop the persecutions. Both Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans have treated Jews poorly after the Middle Ages.