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Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Humans thinking make thoughts whilst living with and on solid objects. Using the reflective ideas from solid objects. I think only a O UFO ball own or are that scientists idea.

Why your thoughts about a past are fake.

I know as one human what a human life mind body should act like.

All the same. Survival our life only on earth.

So human men as a theist state we are biology life after an ape as a humans statement only.

By a human aware by looking seeing observing. Which isn't science its natural observation.

That same one human tells my life a woman as one human what he believes as one human the science theist.

Hence I can argue natural life as I'm not the inventor of science themes. Men humans are.

Living on earth he said I believe I've stated a sun burning up energy would open up into more empty space. End as a dead planet pressurised by empty space.

Knowing planets were never suns as O planets lived bodily evolving O by not consuming and just cooling.

It's what he told a woman.

So I'm just reminding him. Who he really is in one species. Exact. And what an egotist he is.

The reminder says because of you human brother I have suffered extreme agonising human suffering. As my human mother sisters daughters. By your machines status.

Thanks for making your life partner a machine and not life continuance. Truly are an evil minded liar.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Then the earth ceased being a cloud planet as the skies cleared
The earth ceased being an ocean world as the continents rose
Earth ceased being sterile as land brought forth life (fresh water, more likely)
And then the seas brought forth life

According to Genesis 1, it referred to the sky or heaven as the firmament (in KJV), which is describe as a dome or vault in other translations (eg dome in NRSV).

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV) said:
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

Genesis 1:6-8 (NRSV) said:
6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky.

There there the sun, moon and stars, are said to be placed in the firmament, which is Hebrew description of the sky being a dome or vault...

Genesis 1:14-17 (KJV) said:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:14-17 (NRSV) said:
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,

...the same sky that clouds are found and birds.

Genesis 1:20 (KJV) said:
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 1:20 (NRSV) said:
20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.

Now, how can birds fly in the same firmament/dome/vault as that of the Sun, stars and Moon?

And you do know that are no dome of any sort in space, especially where the stars are?
 

Madmogwai

Madmogwai
So -- I've been reading a little about the sun and its composition. And the idea by (some, i guess) scientists is that the sun and stars came from a Big Bang. So the question is: how big was the material in the clump? that initiated the "Big Bang"? A secondary question is: did that clump have anything outside of that clump? There are more questions but maybe we can talk about it a little. :)
(Not that anyone knows...but we can try to see maybe what scientists are saying...well, some of them anyway.)
God Created the big bang
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
According to Genesis 1, it referred to the sky or heaven as the firmament (in KJV), which is describe as a dome or vault in other translations (eg dome in NRSV).



Dome, vault... whatever the English translation of an ancient variant of Hebrew translates from Sumerian or Akkian texts.
But sure, the sky is like a dome.​
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
There there the sun, moon and stars, are said to be placed in the firmament, which is Hebrew description of the sky being a dome or vault......the same sky that clouds are found and birds.Now, how can birds fly in the same firmament/dome/vault as that of the Sun, stars and Moon?
And you do know that are no dome of any sort in space, especially where the stars are?

Text repeats (3 or 4 mentions of the sun for instance)
On the moon with earthrise you will see the same dome, half the sky is a hemisphere.
 

gnostic

The Lost One

Dome, vault... whatever the English translation of an ancient variant of Hebrew translates from Sumerian or Akkian texts.
But sure, the sky is like a dome.​
Text repeats (3 or 4 mentions of the sun for instance)
On the moon with earthrise you will see the same dome, half the sky is a hemisphere.

I am not sure what the Sumerian or Akkadian used, but in Hebrew it is
rāqī́aʿ (רָקִיעַ) or ha-rāqī́aʿ (הַרָקִיעַ), which is translated as dome or hemisphere or vault, depending on the translation.

But that's not the issue, in whatever they describe the sky.

The fact of the matter, the "firmament of heaven" or "dome of the sky" for day 4 (creation of moon, sun and stars) and day 5 (creation of birds) fly in the same dome.

Clearly that's not possible, no matter how they translate these passages or how you interpret them.

Second.

There is the fact that moon, Sun and stars are not situated in any dome or hemisphere. It is astronomically wrong, no matter if the texts are in Hebrew, Akkadian or Sumerian, or in English for that matter.

Surely you, living in the 21st century, that there are no hemisphere in which it confine the stars, sun and moon.

Genesis isn't astronomy treatise, and to think birds fly under the same dome as astronomical bodies, and to accept what they say, are just ludicrous.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I am not sure what the Sumerian or Akkadian used, but in Hebrew it is
rāqī́aʿ (רָקִיעַ) or ha-rāqī́aʿ (הַרָקִיעַ), which is translated as dome or hemisphere or vault, depending on the translation.

But that's not the issue, in whatever they describe the sky.

The fact of the matter, the "firmament of heaven" or "dome of the sky" for day 4 (creation of moon, sun and stars) and day 5 (creation of birds) fly in the same dome.

Clearly that's not possible, no matter how they translate these passages or how you interpret them.

Second.

There is the fact that moon, Sun and stars are not situated in any dome or hemisphere. It is astronomically wrong, no matter if the texts are in Hebrew, Akkadian or Sumerian, or in English for that matter.

Surely you, living in the 21st century, that there are no hemisphere in which it confine the stars, sun and moon.

Genesis isn't astronomy treatise, and to think birds fly under the same dome as astronomical bodies, and to accept what they say, are just ludicrous.

Yes, when you out of a night you can see the hemisphere - north, south, east and west, they form a hemisphere - half a sphere, sun, moon, clouds, birds.
Yes, Genesis REPEATS itself. Three suns for instance.
From my own notes:

Assume:

  1. The observer is standing upon the Earth (in reality most readers of Genesis had no concept of space, just as we have little idea of a “multi-verse” of whatever lies beyond this)
  2. That the “days” are symbols of completeness or periods of creation.
  3. One event is repeated and one is out of sequence.



KJ version:

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is not a preamble to the six days. First the "heaven" and then the Earth. No time or method of creation is stated.


[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


We now move to the earth - an oceanic cloud world like most earth size planets are thought to be (Bayesian evidence for the prevalence of waterworlds. Royal Astron Soc. June 2017)
The existence of an early ocean was not accepted until 2005 when Australian scientists were able to study the chemical composition of zirconian crystals dating from the pre-continent age.


[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



Assuming a Titan analog, the early Earth would have been dark until the cloud deck cleared, bringing light. This would have exposed the day and night cycle caused by the Earth’s rotation.

Venusian like atmosphere, thick CO2, Unlocking the secrets of Earth’s early atmosphere | Argonne National Laboratory (anl.gov)


[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


I do not understand what the “firmament” here means. I checked it in parallel translations. This might mean the air itself as it separates the waters below from the waters above.


[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


“Dry land” meant the granite blocks which rose above the submerged basalt crust. The continents required the existence of oceanic water to initiate the motion of plate tectonics (continental drift) and this in turn created the granite necessary for the lighter continents.


2017 study of zircon evidence for lack of continents.

Formation of Hadean granites by melting of igneous crust | Nature Geoscience

Exposed ocean crust - oxygen isotopes evidence for oceanic world. 2020.

Geologists determine early Earth was a 'water world' by studying exposed ocean crust



[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.


The Earth "creates" life. Of itself. It was believed that life appeared in the oceans first. But new lines of evidence converged in 2017 to suggest that it was the land and not the deep ocean trenches which set in motion the creation of life (David Deamer and Bruce Damer - University of California - Santa Cruz. 2017. August 2017 Scientific America.)


14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


This repeats day 1.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, but in this 'early Big bang' corresponds to the inflationary period, which is still speculative. Going back to the Planck era, we have no evidence, even from the CMBR.
Well I knew there was some connection even if speculative. I must have switched around some facts since reading the book.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"IT" created time? How long was the "peach" type thing (yes, thing) there before it exploded? And was anything there before the peach?

The peach stage was after the start of the expansion, so the peach-sized universe was expanding at that point and there was a smaller peach earlier (a few femtoseconds earlier, but still).

The peach is NOT the singularity. it is after the singularity.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The universe did not create itself? It just is--was? The word 'creation' is a bit offsetting, considering you don't believe there is a creator, do you?
Insofar as God is concerned, IF there were not the Bible, I wouldn't know God existed (exists) either. So to me it's like putting things together, even though many do not believe what the Bible says. But again -- to me it's like adding up the writing and history of the Bible, along with seeing life and the world around me that convinces me there IS a God. You probably do know that the Bible says that the heavens cannot contain God. 1 Kings 8 makes this clear when Solomon stated, "Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!"

Can I understand God? No, only from what I have learned from the Bible AND those whom I consider to be God's people, and those things I have personally experienced. Do I say this is every religious person's experience? No. Even then I don't have to agree with everyone's interpretation.

That isn't really the point. Why are you willing to accept an uncreated God but not an uncreated universe?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That isn't really the point. Why are you willing to accept an uncreated God but not an uncreated universe?
Because -- everything has a maker, except for the One that made everything. That is how I deduce it. So for instance, God is the one that implanted laws, and can, if He desires, circumvent those laws when He wants to without any adverse repercussions. One example (not the "Big Bang") is that of childbirth. For instance an alcoholic mother obviously can adversely affect the baby within her womb. And that is what God allows. I don't know about the constellations and moons and things like that right now, but am speaking only of what is construed to be as natural occurrences on the earth to say how I feel about life on earth. I do not think God causes brain damage, but has set laws in motion that allows changes yet does not go without the boundaries. In other words (and again excuse me that I'm not speaking of things happening in the universe), humans remain humans, chimpanzees remain chimpanzees, etc. With or without systemic changes.
But speaking of things in the heavens, the Bible explains that the sun and moon stopped in the sky until God's will was accomplished. That is recorded at Joshua chapter 10 regarding a war Israel was having. This demonstrates quite clearly that the Almighty is in control of the universe and can accomplish His will without disturbing the life elements when He wants to.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That isn't really the point. Why are you willing to accept an uncreated God but not an uncreated universe?
another reason aside from the fact that I believe there is a Grand Maker that cannot be explained insofar as we humans do not and cannot understand anything with "no beginning" is that it seems clear (to me) that something had to be outside that "peach." I daresay that nothing is something insofar as the heavens are concerned, even IF they are expanding, and I do not contest that, the parts are going somewhere. Even if in a straight line (more or less) outward. So there are things that simply cannot be understood by us mere humans.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That isn't really the point. Why are you willing to accept an uncreated God but not an uncreated universe?
In fact, and in addition to my disbelief in the theory of evolution is even moreso that of the Big Bang as posited as if there is no God, or better yet, doesn't need a god to cause the emergence of the universe. As if it 'just happened' without a superior directive intelligent force. As far as I'm concerned, it's an even more powerful argument for the existence of God than that of the conjectures of evolution as if life as we know it came about more or less on its own from a few accidental molecules joining together, etc., and growing. And then the idea of a small but extremely "out of this world" mass with nothing (whatever nothing is) beyond that little peach sized possible substance.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Ok, the Big Bang begins, and creates space, time etc..
How could it 'begin' before it created time?

The point isn't about physics but our hubris. We can 'explain' something like lightning and evolution, but our explanations go only so far.
And will ONLY go so far.

Our time started with the big bang, time is as real as space. Space has 3 dimensions and time has 1. Both can be warped, slowed down and so on.
We don't know what there is beyond the big bang. There could be different versions of spacetime with multiple dimensions of time instead of one. There was a time humans did not understand the solar system and didn't know about galaxies, spacetime, particles, bacteria, the age of the Earth and were in the dark about most things. We have figured out much about science but are still in the dark, probably just as much when it comes to the multiverse and how that works. Answers are there and they are probably more science.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
another reason aside from the fact that I believe there is a Grand Maker that cannot be explained insofar as we humans do not and cannot understand anything with "no beginning" is that it seems clear (to me) that something had to be outside that "peach." I daresay that nothing is something insofar as the heavens are concerned, even IF they are expanding, and I do not contest that, the parts are going somewhere. Even if in a straight line (more or less) outward. So there are things that simply cannot be understood by us mere humans.


Did you read my answers? yes, there was something outside of the 'peach': the rest of the universe, which was also hot and dense at the time. The peach is merely what became our currently observable universe.

I don't find it that hard to understand the concept of 'no beginning'. All you need to do is get outside of time. And, for the universe as a whole (including both space and time), that is the case.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Because -- everything has a maker, except for the One that made everything. That is how I deduce it. So for instance, God is the one that implanted laws, and can, if He desires, circumvent those laws when He wants to without any adverse repercussions. One example (not the "Big Bang") is that of childbirth. For instance an alcoholic mother obviously can adversely affect the baby within her womb. And that is what God allows. I don't know about the constellations and moons and things like that right now, but am speaking only of what is construed to be as natural occurrences on the earth to say how I feel about life on earth. I do not think God causes brain damage, but has set laws in motion that allows changes yet does not go without the boundaries. In other words (and again excuse me that I'm not speaking of things happening in the universe), humans remain humans, chimpanzees remain chimpanzees, etc. With or without systemic changes.
But speaking of things in the heavens, the Bible explains that the sun and moon stopped in the sky until God's will was accomplished. That is recorded at Joshua chapter 10 regarding a war Israel was having. This demonstrates quite clearly that the Almighty is in control of the universe and can accomplish His will without disturbing the life elements when He wants to.

And all of these are reasons why I *don't* believe in the Bible. When the Bible says things that are ridiculous, I don't believe it.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Our time started with the big bang, time is as real as space. Space has 3 dimensions and time has 1. Both can be warped, slowed down and so on.
We don't know what there is beyond the big bang. There could be different versions of spacetime with multiple dimensions of time instead of one. There was a time humans did not understand the solar system and didn't know about galaxies, spacetime, particles, bacteria, the age of the Earth and were in the dark about most things. We have figured out much about science but are still in the dark, probably just as much when it comes to the multiverse and how that works. Answers are there and they are probably more science.

For sure, understanding a supposed 'multi-verse', like string theory, might happen, or not. But a multi-verse is a part of the physical system, the universe, nature, whatever. What preceded the physical world is beyond science. Saying the universe created itself before it existed is actually MORE absurd than saying God created it.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And all of these are reasons why I *don't* believe in the Bible. When the Bible says things that are ridiculous, I don't believe it.

What part of the bible don't you believe?
its history?
its moral exortation?
its creation account?
its music and poetry?
its wisdom?
its Gospel?
its prophecy?
 
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