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Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What part of the bible don't you believe?
its history?
its moral exortation?
its creation account?
its music and poetry?
its wisdom?
its Gospel?
its prophecy?

Historically, it is good for a limited period of time.

Morality? I strongly disagree with it.

Creation account? Ludicrous.

Music and poetry? not something to believed or not.

Wisdom? Limited and not new in most cases.

Gospel? It's a collection of stories.

Prophecy? No real prophecy has been shown.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
For sure, understanding a supposed 'multi-verse', like string theory, might happen, or not. But a multi-verse is a part of the physical system, the universe, nature, whatever. What preceded the physical world is beyond science. Saying the universe created itself before it existed is actually MORE absurd than saying God created it.

And is it any less absurd to say that God created himself?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In fact, and in addition to my disbelief in the theory of evolution is even moreso that of the Big Bang as posited as if there is no God, or better yet, doesn't need a god to cause the emergence of the universe.

Excuse me, YoursTrue, all classical sciences that are still relevant today and all modern sciences don’t posit God in their respective theories.

It is not just Evolution, nor the Big Bang don’t posit God or any miracles and creation stories.

Anatomy, physiology, zoology, botany, molecular biology, medicine, etc, none of these fields make claims of the existent or nonexistent deity of any sorts. Not even genetics without straying to Evolution don’t say one thing about your God.

Likewise, in all the fields of chemistry, of physics, of Earth sciences and of astronomy.

None of these branches and fields of Natural Sciences speak of the existence of any deity.

You are singling out the Big Bang and Evolution, but you’ve ignore all other scientific fields, which make you both ignorant and biased.

Do you know why all Natural Sciences don’t mention God at all?

Because gods and the supernatural miracles and creation stories (if they have any), are not testable, and there are no evidence whatsoever to show that any god exist or don’t exist - and UNTESTABLE concepts of gods, means the concepts of gods are UNFALSIFIABLE.

All “unfalsifiable” and “untestable” concepts (not just about god, I am talking about any unfalsifiable concepts or ideas, eg astrology, psychic powers, etc) won’t even qualify as being “hypothesis”.

A hypothesis isn’t just pure conjectures or speculations, and it is not something that you would make up.

Before you even write up a hypothesis, the evidence of natural phenomena should already be there. What scientists should be doing, is to discover it, and then find out -
  • WHAT the phenomena is?
  • HOW does the phenomena work?

So the purpose of the hypothesis is to understanding the natural phenomena, analyzed what they can, and then try to explain the phenomena.

When scientists have come up with explanations, they would try to set up ways to test the hypothesis’ explanations, predictions & any equations, with evidence or experiments, or both.

Charles Darwin didn’t just fabricate Natural Selection from thin air. He spends his early years on voyage of HMS Beagle (1831-1836), studying, analysing and taking extensive notes species (and subspecies) of plants, animals (remains and fossils), from South America, the Pacific and South Africa.

Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin’s contemporary, also did similar things in the Amazon and the Malay Archipelago.

Magnets were known since ancient times, and exist naturally as lodestones, so that wasn’t news in Michael Faraday’s days. What Faraday did discover that magnetic fields can induce (DC current) electricity on conductors, so he discover the relations between electricity and magnetism, and his hypothesis including his equations on electromagnetic fields, became a scientific theory that are still relevant today.

The planetary motion of the Solar System worked naturally and astronomically on the heliocentric system, and Aristarchus of Samos, a 3rd century BCE Hellenistic Greek astronomer and mathematician was the first to postulate the heliocentric model of planetary motion that planets (including the Earth) orbiting around the sun.

But it was unpopular because since the 2nd millennium BCE Babylonian astronomy advocated the geocentric model that influenced Egyptian astronomers and Greek astronomers, where the Earth was fixed and stationary, while they believed that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth. A 2nd century CE, Egyptian-Greek astronomer Claudius Ptolemy wrote a very influential treatise on geocentric model, which Christians (including Western and Eastern churches) have supported for over a thousand years. Very few astronomers support the heliocentric model.

It wasn’t until Nicklaus Copernicus revived the heliocentric model, mathematically, and Galileo Galilei shown it to be true with an early telescope.

The phenomena was always there, but very few understood the phenomena of heliocentric model, between Aristarchus and Galileo.

Of course, the heliocentric model of Copernicus and Galileo wasn’t completely correct: Johannes Kepler correctly postulated and tested the orbits were elliptical, not circular orbits. The evidence was there, way before Aristarchus, but understanding the observations and the evidence don’t always come.

As to the Big Bang theory. The evidence were there, it was just no one understood them until the 1920s (Friedmann, Robertson & Lemaître, eg Friedmann equations, Hubble’s Law and the Cosmological Redshift) and then the 1948 (Gamow, Alpher & Herman, eg the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, and the Hot Big Bang model),

The Redshift was predicated independently by the American Howard Percy Robertson (1924) and Belgian Georges Lemaître (1927), but it was discovered in 1929 by Edwin Hubble.

George Gamow and Ralph Alpher predicted the BB Nucleosynthesis, and Alpher co-wrote and predicted CMBR with Robert Herman, wrote joint papers. The CMBR was accidentally discovered by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, who were setting up radio antenna as radio telescope, in 1964.

These two evidence (Redshift & CMBR) of the Big Bang “hypothesis” was elevated to “scientific theory” status in 1964, and debunked the competing Steady State model.

Some people don’t understand that hypotheses have to be at the very least, be testable.

When the actual testing happened, the evidence and experiments will either refute the hypothesis or verified the hypothesis.

No hypotheses are true by-default; all hypotheses must be tested, before they are accepted as true, and that involve correct observations and understanding of the evidence.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And is it any less absurd to say that God created himself?

Haven't you and me been down this rabbit hole before? We cannot make any logical, physical, mathematical or philosophical suppositions about things OUTSIDE of the physical world. Asking 'who then created God?' is a question we simply can't ask. Try to imagine a realm without time, for instance.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Historically, it is good for a limited period of time.

Morality? I strongly disagree with it.

Creation account? Ludicrous.

Music and poetry? not something to believed or not.

Wisdom? Limited and not new in most cases.

Gospel? It's a collection of stories.

Prophecy? No real prophecy has been shown.

Another rabbit hole here. Haven't we talked about biblical prophecy before?
I hold that the clearest prophecy concerned the Coming Messiah and the Fate of Israel. As for the latter - we are living in times of prophecy right now: the return of the Jews to Israel.
Biblical morality has no place in this modern world, and it seriously shows with America spending half a trillion dollars a year on drugs, porn and prostitution.
The Gospel isn't a collection of stories, it's a unified story of Jesus and the beginning of Chrstianity.
The creation account I stand by - despite its language you can see the stages that science has only agreed upon in the last twenty or so years.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Haven't you and me been down this rabbit hole before? We cannot make any logical, physical, mathematical or philosophical suppositions about things OUTSIDE of the physical world. Asking 'who then created God?' is a question we simply can't ask. Try to imagine a realm without time, for instance.

Good. Then we also cannot assume there is any causality. In particular, we cannot assume that there is anything outside of the universe that causes the universe.

I don't find it that difficult to imagine a realm without time.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Another rabbit hole here. Haven't we talked about biblical prophecy before?
I hold that the clearest prophecy concerned the Coming Messiah and the Fate of Israel. As for the latter - we are living in times of prophecy right now: the return of the Jews to Israel.
Biblical morality has no place in this modern world, and it seriously shows with America spending half a trillion dollars a year on drugs, porn and prostitution.
The Gospel isn't a collection of stories, it's a unified story of Jesus and the beginning of Chrstianity.
The creation account I stand by - despite its language you can see the stages that science has only agreed upon in the last twenty or so years.


yes, I know these are your beliefs. I simply don't see the evidence as supporting them.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Good. Then we also cannot assume there is any causality. In particular, we cannot assume that there is anything outside of the universe that causes the universe.

I don't find it that difficult to imagine a realm without time.

Time, as some wags put it, 'stops everything happening at once.'
You need time so there is a physical process - and the Big Bang was a physical process. How does a system create time when there was no time for the process of creating time has begun?
Interesting article last week showing how entropy would not allow an ever expanding/contracting universe. And in any case, positing such an endless cycling doesn't answer the Ultimate Question 2, how did it start?

ps Ultimate Question 1 is 'What happens when you die?'
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Time, as some wags put it, 'stops everything happening at once.'
You need time so there is a physical process - and the Big Bang was a physical process. How does a system create time when there was no time for the process of creating time has begun?

This is like asking how the Earth creates latitude at the south pole when there isn't latitude further south.

Interesting article last week showing how entropy would not allow an ever expanding/contracting universe. And in any case, positing such an endless cycling doesn't answer the Ultimate Question 2, how did it start?

Why assume it starts?

ps Ultimate Question 1 is 'What happens when you die?'

That one is easy as far as I can see: you rot (unless you are preserved in some way). Your consciousness ceases to exist.

As I see it, people don't like that conclusion, which is why religion was invented (one of the reasons).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You DO see the evidence I present, you don't accept the conclusions.

I see your evidence as weak and not even close to demonstrative.

The 'prophesies' you mention are attempts to twist the words to fit what is currently happening. And, guess what? ALL time periods in history have wars and rumors of wars, have hardship and injustice, have people searching for meaning. So predicting such really isn't a big deal.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I see your evidence as weak and not even close to demonstrative.

The 'prophesies' you mention are attempts to twist the words to fit what is currently happening. And, guess what? ALL time periods in history have wars and rumors of wars, have hardship and injustice, have people searching for meaning. So predicting such really isn't a big deal.

Three I love and can't be explained away:

Jacob told his Judah that there would be a Hebrew nation, and from him would come a line of Jewish kings - but all this would last till the Messiah came, and in him would the Gentiles trust.

Isaiah spoke of a 'second return' of the Jewish people, BEFORE they went into slavery and exile THE FIRST TIME.

Zechariah wrote of the Jews mourning when the Jews saw their Messianic king conquering the nations - but they will mourn when they realize it's the same lowly man they killed.

There's no explanations for these. None whatsoever.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
OK, now we have a dense mass the size of a peach. So my question which I guess the astronomers and scientists can ponder over if they want to is -- what's beyond the peach? anything? :) Frankly my dear, since it's beyond my comprehension, I will turn it over to God because there are some things beyond *our* comprehension, as exemplified by the new posits made by those looking through the new type of telescope. When I was in high school I pondered over atoms and what holds them together to make things like wood and desks, etc., despite the "space" between them. The intellectual ability is interesting but nothing gained in terms of pondering beyond having a good time trying to figure things out.

This reads like an advert in support of anti-intellectualism. Anti-science, anti-knowledge, anti-hard work, anti-research,.... just instead promoting intellectual lazyness and faith based assertions.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Actually, as I said just before, the idea that before the "Big Bang" some people think (?) the mass that banged, or exploded, was the size of a peach is truly incredible. I'm not faulting the person, but I do think it's -- um -- ridiculous.
So since I have determined based on the various posts and depictions of what the "Big Bang" is supposed to be -- that it is a ridiculous, yes ridiculous concept, I'm saying that after reading all these intellectual guesses, the idea of God as over the universe and imponderable is not such a foreign idea. But thanks anyway.


I love how you first start with the premise that "science ideas are ridiculous" and then, because your premise establishes it as ridiculous, you then go on to defend your own idea because by your own implications it is easily equally ridiculous.

Well... I guess it's a good thing that you realize the ridiculousness of the claims you are making.
Now if you could just correct your strawman in your premise, that would be great.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Three I love and can't be explained away:

Jacob told his Judah that there would be a Hebrew nation, and from him would come a line of Jewish kings - but all this would last till the Messiah came, and in him would the Gentiles trust.

Isaiah spoke of a 'second return' of the Jewish people, BEFORE they went into slavery and exile THE FIRST TIME.

Zechariah wrote of the Jews mourning when the Jews saw their Messianic king conquering the nations - but they will mourn when they realize it's the same lowly man they killed.

There's no explanations for these. None whatsoever.

Legends and stories. Some, by chance, can be twisted into agreement with reality. Others were told after the events they 'prophesy'. All are hopes and dreams.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The Big Bang theory is under more and more scrutiny as we are able to look deeper and deeper into space.

The unexpected new data coming back from the telescope are inspiring panic among astronomers
NEWS

AUGUST 13, 2022

Physicist Eric J. Lerner comes to the point:

To everyone who sees them, the new James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images of the cosmos are beautifully awe-inspiring. But to most professional astronomers and cosmologists, they are also extremely surprising—not at all what was predicted by theory. In the flood of technical astronomical papers published online since July 12, the authors report again and again that the images show surprisingly many galaxies, galaxies that are surprisingly smooth, surprisingly small and surprisingly old. Lots of surprises, and not necessarily pleasant ones. One paper’s title begins with the candid exclamation: “Panic!”

Why do the JWST’s images inspire panic among cosmologists? And what theory’s predictions are they contradicting? The papers don’t actually say. The truth that these papers don’t report is that the hypothesis that the JWST’s images are blatantly and repeatedly contradicting is the Big Bang Hypothesis that the universe began 14 billion years ago in an incredibly hot, dense state and has been expanding ever since. Since that hypothesis has been defended for decades as unquestionable truth by the vast majority of cosmological theorists, the new data is causing these theorists to panic. “Right now I find myself lying awake at three in the morning,” says Alison Kirkpatrick, an astronomer at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, “and wondering if everything I’ve done is wrong.”

ERIC J. LERNER, “THE BIG BANG DIDN’T HAPPEN” AT IAI.TV (AUGUST 11, 2022)

James Webb Space Telescope Shows Big Bang Didn’t Happen? Wait…

Dr. Becky Smethurst talks about this in her "Space News" and she's not happy about it:
(Start at 13:00)

 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Legends and stories. Some, by chance, can be twisted into agreement with reality. Others were told after the events they 'prophesy'. All are hopes and dreams.

Agreement with reality. I like that. Jesus spoke of the Jews losing their homeland 'till the Gentile's time is fulfilled', echoing Old Testament sentiments.
For 1800 years Jews celebrated with the saying, 'Next year in Jerusalem' - but exiled, persecuted, their land now in the Islamic sphere under Turkey etc this wasn't going to happen - until it did. Kind of like people calling themselves Babylonian, taking back their capital in Iraq and resurrecting their language, religion, customs etc..
Called out of nations that were their 'graves' to restore the ruined land and take it back with the sword.
You can't make that up.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So there was no end, you say to that hot gaseous material, is that how you and others figure it? It was just -- everywhere with no end????
??
There has to be eternal component(s) to the universe.

A good placeholder term for me would be "potential" and I suspect it might be just energy since there is nothing in existence that dosent stand still. Energy no doubt results in some wild phenomenon and form.

It's a reason why I think we actually are creatures that continually form and dissipate in a true continuum.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Agreement with reality. I like that. Jesus spoke of the Jews losing their homeland 'till the Gentile's time is fulfilled', echoing Old Testament sentiments.
For 1800 years Jews celebrated with the saying, 'Next year in Jerusalem' - but exiled, persecuted, their land now in the Islamic sphere under Turkey etc this wasn't going to happen - until it did. Kind of like people calling themselves Babylonian, taking back their capital in Iraq and resurrecting their language, religion, customs etc..

Which, if the culture was maintained, would be a possibility.

The difference is that Judaism maintained its culture in the midst of other cultures.

Called out of nations that were their 'graves' to restore the ruined land and take it back with the sword.
You can't make that up.

And just how much is the current culture similar to the ancient one? Oh, I'm sure there are some points of contact, but not as many as the propagandists would like.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There has to be eternal component(s) to the universe.

A good placeholder term for me would be "potential" and I suspect it might be just energy since there is nothing in existence that dosent stand still. Energy no doubt results in some wild phenomenon and form.

It's a reason why I think we actually are creatures that continually form and dissipate in a true continuum.
The only eternal constant without beginning or end is God. I can't say I understand how someone can have no beginning but I do believe it. To me that is not contradictory.bBecause arhough I don't understand it, I think it has to be that way. Because nothing else, including energy, makes sense to me in terms of God and how did the universe come about.
 
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