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Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Source(s), please.

Are you sure these proteins were found by "archaeologists"?

I am asking, because archaeology are focused on man-made constructs, such as -
  • buildings (domestic, palatial, public, religious, etc) in urban or rural areas,
  • city planning,
  • roadworks,
  • aqueduct systems,
  • in technology (eg tool type and method of making tools, farming techniques, irrigation, mining techniques, etc),
  • arts (eg painting, sculptures, etc) and crafts (pottery),
  • minted coins,
  • funerary customs (eg graves, tombs, necropolis, etc),
  • and of course, philology and translations of inscriptions.
There are probably a lot more that are not in the above list.

Among the things that they don’t do, is trying to identify the different types of proteins. And while they may work with bodies, remains or fossils of humans, their speciality isn’t in molecular biology.

So can please cite your sources, so we have some ideas as to the context of your claims.
I searched his claim and came up with quite a few articles like this one:

DeepMind AI has discovered the structure of nearly every protein known to science

It uses the DNA of an organism to give the order of the amino acids used when protein is made and then uses an algorithm of some sort that predicts how it will fold. Is it accurate? I have no clue. It appears that they are claiming that it is.

And his amateur archaeologists was a reference to the people that were working on the claim about a meteor causing the Sodom and Gomorrah myth. Though he insists it was as in the Bible. It could show that there was a historical event that the legend (perhaps a better term) was based on but it still is not evidence for the Bible tale itself.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Source(s), please.

Are you sure these proteins were found by "archaeologists"?

I am asking, because archaeology are focused on man-made constructs, such as -
  • buildings (domestic, palatial, public, religious, etc) in urban or rural areas,
  • city planning,
  • roadworks,
  • aqueduct systems,
  • in technology (eg tool type and method of making tools, farming techniques, irrigation, mining techniques, etc),
  • arts (eg painting, sculptures, etc) and crafts (pottery),
  • minted coins,
  • funerary customs (eg graves, tombs, necropolis, etc),
  • and of course, philology and translations of inscriptions.
There are probably a lot more that are not in the above list.

Among the things that they don’t do, is trying to identify the different types of proteins. And while they may work with bodies, remains or fossils of humans, their speciality isn’t in molecular biology.

So can please cite your sources, so we have some ideas as to the context of your claims.

Ha ha. I refer to PROTEINS, as in BIOLOGY.
‘The entire protein universe’: AI predicts shape of nearly every known protein (nature.com)

But proteins CAN be of use in archaelogy or anthropogy when DNA is too degraded for analysis. DNA makes proteins, so you can work backwards from old proteins to determine DNA.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Yes, from the article it seems one finding is more accepted than the other, controversy surrounds especially the second finding, if I recall correctly. Going back to the Tel Dan stele article however about it, the wiki article says in part: "These writings corroborate passages from the Bible, as the Second Book of Kings mentions that Jehoram, also Joram, is the son of an Israelite king, Ahab, by his Phoenician wife, Jezebel." I'm reading 1 Kings chapter 8 which goes into much detail about that time. It's very interesting. Tel Dan stele - Wikipedia

These are the kings and queens of Israel. They are not to be compared with the gods of Mount Olympus.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
About Timna valley. Mining sites are not usually large. We have the example of salt mines in Punjab. Salt went to all places but no large cities existed at the mining sites. Similarly the copper mines in the Yamnaya.Tunguska affected only the trees. No other effect was found. If the Jordan air burst was over Dead Sea, it would have made even less effect, just the vaporization of some water.

Timna Valley had a lot of mining going on - far more than what a small population could carry out.
DNA is of use too - you can tell if a population was large or small by how inbred people were.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Timna Valley had a lot of mining going on - far more than what a small population could carry out.
DNA is of use too - you can tell if a population was large or small by how inbred people were.
Okay, I am not an expert on how many people are needed for mining. Are you? Do you have a valid link for such experts?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Can't remember, but after Egpt left the area mining continued on a larger scale - with about a million small diggings.

Okay so then you really have no idea. By the way, one of the problems with the Moses myth is that if one goes by biblical timing based on the methods that Ussher Moses escaped from Egypt and then went back to Egypt. At that time Egypt was still ruling what is now Israel.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Timna Valley had a lot of mining going on - far more than what a small population could carry out.
Timna valley mining stretches over 6,000 years (in YEC terms, immediately after the creation of the Universe by Lord God).
Normally, miners went without their families all over the world.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Timna valley mining stretches over 6,000 years (in YEC terms, immediately after the creation of the Universe by Lord God).
Normally, miners went without their families all over the world.

Sure, but we can date the various mines - so Egypt had a large operation, but Egypt was a large country.
After Egypt left an even larger operation went on - but archaelogists couldn't square the scale of operations
to the supposed size of the populations in the area. Conclusion - population density was much higher in this
region that previously supposed.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Okay so then you really have no idea. By the way, one of the problems with the Moses myth is that if one goes by biblical timing based on the methods that Ussher Moses escaped from Egypt and then went back to Egypt. At that time Egypt was still ruling what is now Israel.

Yeah, I "have no idea" and that's a problem.
Egypt had control over the Southern Levant. But in the Bronze Age Collapse this control was seriousl weakened. Simply put, everything collapsed - only Egypt survived, but it wasn't the same again for a long long time. And this is where the Hebrews and Phillistines appeared on the scene - from Egypt and the Aegean respectively.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Quite possible as Sinai otherwise was nearly empty, Moses and his 30 million legend notwithstanding.

Exodus states the journey was 40 years. But a careful reading of the text suggests that was 2 years in travel and 38 being in a single place. Hebrews would be in transit to this place, or leaving it again. That place was called Kadesh (apparantly there were numerous Kadesh's at that time.)
But many were in transit at this time. The Phillistines arrived - having traveled from the Agean to Egypt to Israel. Large movements of people from northern and central Europe traveled to the Mediterranean and then onto the Middle East.
Moses' journey was nothing unusual.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But if Moses led the 'children of Israel' to the 'Promised Land' then that might suggest there is a God of the bible - and the existential issues that raises.

Actually, it wouldn't suggest that.

You would probably instantly recognize the flaw if it concerned something that is not your religion, so that your confirmation bias doesn't set in.

But all this is hypothetical anyway, since the evidence does not suggest that and in fact suggests quite a different story.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Actually, it wouldn't suggest that.

You would probably instantly recognize the flaw if it concerned something that is not your religion, so that your confirmation bias doesn't set in.

But all this is hypothetical anyway, since the evidence does not suggest that and in fact suggests quite a different story.

No, there's no evidence either way - what there is a body of material that some interpret one way as 'facts' and another body which others interpret as their 'facts.'
So you get Minimalists and Maximalists. That is, is the bible minimally right, or maximum?
But of personal interest, over a long life time, is to observe the Minimalist getting a bit squeezed. In recent years we have the excavations at Shiloh, DNA, finding evidence for King David, Hebrew writing from Moses' time, the Jorda Plain catastrophe and dramatic reconfiguring of what we know about the early earth.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
No, there's no evidence either way - what there is a body of material that some interpret one way as 'facts' and another body which others interpret as their 'facts.'
So you get Minimalists and Maximalists. That is, is the bible minimally right, or maximum?
But of personal interest, over a long life time, is to observe the Minimalist getting a bit squeezed. In recent years we have the excavations at Shiloh, DNA, finding evidence for King David, Hebrew writing from Moses' time, the Jorda Plain catastrophe and dramatic reconfiguring of what we know about the early earth.

And even if that holds up to further study, that still does not show that the mythology of the Bible is true any more than the digs at Troy show that Athena and Zeus existed and behaved as Homer claimed or that Pan actually lead Julius Caesar across the Rubicon.

Is it possible the stories in the Bible are based on some historical events? Sure. Did the legends then grow after telling and retelling? Sure. Is the Moses legend somehow related to the second Intermediate time in Egypt and a confusion with the myths of Akhenaten? Maybe.

Does any o that justify the existence of Yahweh? Not at all.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And even if that holds up to further study, that still does not show that the mythology of the Bible is true any more than the digs at Troy show that Athena and Zeus existed and behaved as Homer claimed or that Pan actually lead Julius Caesar across the Rubicon.

Is it possible the stories in the Bible are based on some historical events? Sure. Did the legends then grow after telling and retelling? Sure. Is the Moses legend somehow related to the second Intermediate time in Egypt and a confusion with the myths of Akhenaten? Maybe.

Does any o that justify the existence of Yahweh? Not at all.

Yes, and I don't base my beliefs upon the historicity of the bible.
Truth be told, as one skeptic put it, the issue of whether there is a God or not 'sits on a knife edge', ie something suggests God and something negates God.
Someone 'proves' something and then someone 'disproves' something. I subscribed once to Bart Erhman, one of the most significant of the skeptics - I caught him out on numerous half truths and lies. That's significant to me: if you have a belief, why do you need to be less-than-honest about it?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Biblical chronology was a bit dicy because of this very reason - there was nothing to anchor dates to because there was no evidence.
Now we have the Jordan Valley catastophe, and Abraham was exactly 100 years old when it happened. So presumed dates for presumed myths was out a few centuries.
The salt issue - says Lot's wife turned to salt. More likely, as was the case for thousands of other people, animals, buildings, crops etc.. - they were coated with millions of tons of salt. The land lay fallow until Roman times. I.T...R.E.A.L.L.Y...H.A.P.P.E.N.E.D. Early Genesis is full of metaphor, but from Abraham onwards, the beginning of the Hebrew text, I take this as more-or-less-historical.
No crater, yes. Air bursts don't leave craters. What they DO leave is 'shocked quartz.' The jury is still out on Tell el Hammond, but if they DID find shocked quartz then that would settle it - no fire, or army or volcano can create that.

The OT is mythology. Most of the stories have Mesopotamian, Egyptian or Babylonian versions that are far older. All of the theology is standard going back to the first known author writing about Inana. Abraham is a character in a story.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The OT is mythology. Most of the stories have Mesopotamian, Egyptian or Babylonian versions that are far older. All of the theology is standard going back to the first known author writing about Inana. Abraham is a character in a story.

It's strange how the rather pedestrian story of a man who journey from Mesopotamia to Turkey to Palestine, had a few kids, kept sheep and believed in one God instead of many should be a myth. And on the other hand a Cathagian general took an army and elephants and invaded Rome itself, is real. What's the difference? Because there's a lot at stake if the bible is true.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It's strange how the rather pedestrian story of a man who journey from Mesopotamia to Turkey to Palestine, had a few kids, kept sheep and believed in one God instead of many should be a myth. And on the other hand a Cathagian general took an army and elephants and invaded Rome itself, is real.

Genesis is known to be a myth. Based on many lines of evidence. This is not disputed among historical scholars?

"Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy; however, modern scholars, especially from the 19th century onward, place the books' authorship in the 6th and 5th centuries BC, hundreds of years after Moses is supposed to have lived.[3][4] Based on scientific interpretation of archaeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence, most scholars consider Genesis to be primarily mythological rather than historical."

So yes, a character who just happens to be the central figure in a. new forming religious movement is a literary creation. That is actually a very common model. It happened in the 1900's with the Cargo Cults. When the U.S. returned to the islands they had created a fictive creator who lived way before and was the first to recieve revelations.

You can do your own research on Hannibal and see he is not JUST a character in a religious myth but is witnessed by many people including historians Pliny and Plutarch. Many other writers wrote about him as well. He visited many lands and is attested by people in every land he went. Abraham is in one story confirmed to be a myth. You can figure this out yourself.
Also he was a general. We KNOW FOR A FACT that generals were very real and the Carthaginian army was excellent. So they had to have had someone doing the strategy and executing battles. Even if he was a creation, someone did win battles. Creating a fake general (who like 20 different nations attest to seeing in person). is pointless?

Also, Egypt has a "one true God" religion. Yahweh wasn't the first. Early Israelites definitely worshipped Ashera as Yahwehs consort. Yet Abraham doesn't know. He only knows about the later theology from around the 6th century where they dropped Ashera and focused on Yahweh because they thought the invasions were them doing something wrong. It explains this in scripture.

What's the difference? Because there's a lot at stake if the bible is true.

Pascals Wager. It's 100% myth. You can say the same about Islam, except way worse. "a painful doom" is on almost every page multiple times. Non-believers get this in spades.
Yet you are not even phased at all? Maybe because you know it's not real. But how exactly do you know your version is real? You grew up in it? Were converted? Decided to just believe and now it's just true? None of those are any different than the billions in Islam. Cognative bias does not equate to evidence.
People thought the OT was true because of the authoratative way Yahweh is spoken about (and Rome made it law and they forced it on Europe and so on). Historians now know that is the same for all deities going all the way back to the first in Sumer.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Genesis is known to be a myth. Based on many lines of evidence. This is not disputed among historical scholars?

You can't prove a negative, you can' 'prove' Genesis is a myth. You must look at Genesis as a compilation from many sources. I suggest Sumer/Akkadian until Abraham. Jewish after that.
There's two accounts of the creation, the first one is bang on target in terms of the sequence of critical events. That's a mystery in itself.
As for Abraham - you can't say it's a myth. You weren't there. You rely on SOME scholars, but they don't necessarily agree. And Genesis holds all sorts of names, culture, custom and events that would have been strange to people of Babylonian times. Had the OT been 'written' in Babylonian times then certainly it would have drawn on ancient sources.
And DNA, archaelogy, linguistics etc give credence to many things. The most exciting thing recently was the archaelogy at Tel el-Hammand on the 'well watered plains of Jordan.' If this stands up to peer review then it will accord quite nicely with the story of Abraham at that time.

I am not sure the two authors of Hannibal's mythic-quality accounts were actually eye witnesses.
We dismiss Matthew, Peter, John, James, Luke and Paul's accounts as mere myths - then why can't I say that Homer, Socrates, Hannibal etc are myths? There's a doube standard here.
 
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