Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Hockeycowboy]

JW indoctrination

JesusBeliever, you make it sound like communism, or something! Grief! We are trained in using the Scriptures....that's the indoctrination. And letting the Bible speak for itself. Now, we are also taught honest ways to try and reach peoples' hearts.

paralyzing techniques.

Could you please explain what is paralyzing?

a sales job in my teens in which similar techniques were used..........whole speech was carefully scripted from beginning to end.........And that was the "Can I call my Supervisor" technique

I was involved in the same type of technique, selling a popular vacuum cleaner brand. But there was deceit involved with that ( I quit them pretty quick.) There's no disingenuous or deceitful attitude on our part, here. We simply want to help people to learn about Jehovah. You won't learn about Him anywhere else! It is important! He's the One who grants understanding of His word. -- Luke 10:21

it seems that they use the "Good Cop, Bad Cop" routine, as is also evident on this thread.

My goodness, that would require coordinating our efforts, and imply some measure of deceit! Most assuredly, we haven't.

Come on! If anything, it's evidence of having different styles, which proves we don't have "carefully scripted" replies!

Take care, my cousin.

 

[JesusBeliever]

JesusBeliever, you make it sound like communism, or something! Grief! We are trained in using the Scriptures....that's the indoctrination. And letting the Bible speak for itself. Now, we are also taught honest ways to try and reach peoples' hearts.

Could you please explain what is paralyzing?

I was involved in the same type of technique, selling a popular vacuum cleaner brand. But there was deceit involved with that ( I quit them pretty quick.) There's no disingenuous or deceitful attitude on our part, here. We simply want to help people to learn about Jehovah. You won't learn about Him anywhere else! It is important! He's the One who grants understanding of His word. -- Luke 10:21

And this is exactly where the deceit is. I trust that it's not intentional on your part, but take a look at what Jesus went on to say directly after the verse you quoted:

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM." Luke 10:21-22

To claim that "you won't learn about Him anywhere else" is to stand in the place of Christ Himself. You need to look at this carefully brother because I have never seen it this clearly before until this very moment, and if what I am seeing in these verses is true, you need to get out of there and warn everyone you know! Please brother, I beg you. Look at these verses closely and compare them with the claims that you have been taught to believe:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:4-5

 

[Deeje]

Wow! Who would have ever thought that so many deceived and controlled people could be so hoodwinked and miserable?

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMusicVideos/pub-jwbon_201512_1_VIDEO

Who would want to be found among such terrible people? ME!!!

 

[savagewind]

Wow! Who would have ever thought that so many deceived and controlled people could be so hoodwinked and miserable?

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMusicVideos/pub-jwbon_201512_1_VIDEO

Who would want to be found among such terrible people? ME!!!

I think the life in Egypt seems pretty good to the Jews there, according to these.

Numbers 11:5 We remember the fish which we used to eat free in Egypt, the cucumbers and the melons and the leeks and the onions and the garlic,
Numbers 14:3 Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?
Numbers 16:13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us!
Jeremiah 42:14 No, we will go and live in Egypt, where we will not see war or hear the trumpet or be hungry for bread,

 

[savagewind]

And this is exactly where the deceit is. I trust that it's not intentional on your part, but take a look at what Jesus went on to say directly after the verse you quoted:

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM." Luke 10:21-22

To claim that "you won't learn about Him anywhere else" is to stand in the place of Christ Himself. You need to look at this carefully brother because I have never seen it this clearly before until this very moment, and if what I am seeing in these verses is true, you need to get out of there and warn everyone you know! Please brother, I beg you. Look at these verses closely and compare them with the claims that you have been taught to believe:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:4-5

I have seen this so many times. As a JWs I had many doubts. One of the JW tactics is to preach, "wait on Jehovah" for adjustments. So I waited a long time. My questions were not being answered so I had a meeting with some elders. This meeting was not a judicial meeting. I had had those before. I don't know what to say about those, except that they might make the satan laugh.
It was when at the last meeting I had with the elders that one of them said we are to obey the governing body for our lives. I walked out.
I never walked away from Jehovah like they say people do when they leave the Jehovah's Witnesses. Can anyone else see that by doing so, they equate themselves with Jehovah? "Leave us, leave Jehovah". That is what they say. I am not for breaking the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I am sure they have to stop calling themselves Jehovah and equal to Jesus Christ. Also, they should be completely honest with those they would recruit and drop all the propaganda techniques they use.

Ephesians 4:25

 

[JesusBeliever]

Wow! Who would have ever thought that so many deceived and controlled people could be so hoodwinked and miserable?

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMusicVideos/pub-jwbon_201512_1_VIDEO

Who would want to be found among such terrible people? ME!!!

Hi Deeje, I definitely see a lot of very lovely people for sure, and I can truly understand your joy! You have said enough to convince me that you are truly a sincere believer in the Lord and the JW organisation. Which is why despite my discomfort during some of our conversations, I've been willing to endure. And look, I would even go so far to say that the video you shared served as a good reminder to me that there are many sincere and devoted believers in Christ in the JWs, and it encourages me to tread gently. Coz I would never want to be found responsible for trampling on a person's faith and joy in the Lord. This is definitely a hard one!

Coz what I'm trying to help you see is that the JW doctrine unwittingly causes you to trample on other people's faith and joy in the Lord. If it only allowed us to share in that faith and joy together, I too would be rejoicing with you!

(Hope you don't mind that I borrowed your emoticons! )

 

[savagewind]

It might have been true that the whole world would forget Jehovah without the Jehovah's Witnesses to preach Jehovah, which is something they propose, had it not been for the invention of the INTERNET. I own my mother's Bible. In it is "Jehovah" everywhere (in the OT), like the New World Translation Bible. But, not in the NT, (like the NWT) I was interested in the Bible before I even knew about Jehovah's Witnesses. I think that eventually I might have tried my luck with the Bible again. If I had, I would have looked up my questions on the internet and............a flood of information is what I would find. There ARE people preaching. There are people who know Jehovah. I would not have become a troll for the JWs witness, probably, I do not know. I am sure that by their taking the throne of God, the JWs have changed the course the world was taking. I am trying to make it a better course to take. The World won't have it. It is prophesied. Daniel 12:10 Revelation 22:11

 

[JesusBeliever]

I have seen this so many times. As a JWs I had many doubts. One of the JW tactics is to preach, "wait on Jehovah" for adjustments. So I waited a long time. My questions were not being answered so I had a meeting with some elders. This meeting was not a judicial meeting. I had had those before. I don't know what to say about those, except that they might make the satan laugh.
It was when at the last meeting I had with the elders that one of them said we are to obey the governing body for our lives. I walked out.
I never walked away from Jehovah like they say people do when they leave the Jehovah's Witnesses. Can anyone else see that by doing so, they equate themselves with Jehovah? "Leave us, leave Jehovah". That is what they say. I am not for breaking the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I am sure they have to stop calling themselves Jehovah and equal to Jesus Christ. Also, they should be completely honest with those they would recruit and drop all the propaganda techniques they use.

Ephesians 4:25

Thanks for sharing your experiences savagewind, and especially the part where you say,

"I am not for breaking the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses"

because it tells me that despite it's seemingly grievous flaws, it is reaching people for Christ and in that I can't help but rejoice! Philippians 1:18

 

[savagewind]

Let The Holy Spirit define wicked. Daniel 12:10

Strong's 7561 A primitive root; to be (causatively, do or declare) wrong; by implication, to disturb, violate -- condemn, make trouble, vex, be (commit, deal, depart, do) wicked(-ly, -ness).

To be making trouble which leads to guilt.

Or,

To be making trouble which leads to more trouble..............until Earth can not stand under it. I think that might be Jehovah. The world is right to not want Jehovah. Do you understand? The JWs are wrong to tempt Jehovah. And this is were it gets sticky. To challenge them is wrong also, especially by using violence.

How to get them off gOD'S THRONE WITHOUT VIOLENCE?

 

[savagewind]

One more thing, please.

They say that God says we are to pray that God does not lead us to be tempted.

Might it be that God says we are to pray that we are not led to that place where God is tempted? There are a number of institutions which have led us here. Maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses are not wrong about making that known. Though now, it seems like they have joined the fray.

God is tempted. That is my opinion.

 

[james2ko]

Wow! Who would have ever thought that so many deceived and controlled people could be so hoodwinked and miserable?

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMusicVideos/pub-jwbon_201512_1_VIDEO
Who would want to be found among such terrible people? ME!!!

According to this Religious Landscape Survey, 63% of those raised in the religion seem to be miserable and do not want to be found among such ________ people:

"Jehovah’s Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of any religious tradition. Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses." source​

 

[JesusBeliever]

It might have been true that the whole world would forget Jehovah without the Jehovah's Witnesses to preach Jehovah, which is something they propose...

Ya know brother, I think you make a valid point here. Coz I have to admit that had I not been under such pressure from the Jehovah's Witnesses meeting me at my home and testing what I believed, I might never have had the courage to read the Bible from beginning to end. At the time of their visits I already had the NT on cassette tape (woah, that is a wee while ago!) and I may even have been listening to it on my walkman doing the gardening when they first called. My coming to the Lord a few months prior had been completely miraculous in that I was given a vision of Jesus crucified at a very lonely and low point in my life. The JWs and Mormons came knocking soon after my mum and I had prayed that the Lord send us some friends in the Lord that we could fellowship with. My mum had already been a member of many different denominations and so neither of us were confident in our own ability to choose. So you can probably imagine my delight when the JWs and Mormons turned up, but my mum wasn't pleased at all and refused to meet with them and advised me to do the same, despite my efforts to try and convince her otherwise by saying, "Mum, how will we know the Lord didn't send them if we don't give them a chance?"

After a few visits with both groups I had a dream that I won't explain in detail except to say that I knew it was from the Lord and I knew He was trying to warn me. Not realizing at the time the consequences for disobeying his warning I replied to the Lord saying, "I'm sorry Lord, I just want them to accept me!" After a few more visits I was given another dream in which I was shown that I would be accepted by them, but I also found myself praying these words in the dream as well:

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Psalms 23:4

I woke from the dream crying, afraid to even face the JWs and Mormons to tell them I couldn't see them anymore. Thankfully the Lord gave me the courage to see them one last time and end our visits.

But anyway, as I was saying, had it not been for the JWs especially, I wouldn't have had the courage to read the OT. Their visits with me helped me to see that as long as I was ignorant of the OT, they could always use it against me as a stumbling block. Before opening the OT for the first time I had to pray for courage coz I was admittedly scared. And I asked the Lord to be with me as I read it, and to confirm for me that it was His Word. And I'm so thankful I did coz from the very first page I was blown away by the beauty and love of the Lord. Despite the seemingly dark events of the OT, all I could see was the LIGHT of God's loving and Fatherly nature. And I knew in the deepest core of my being that every thing He did was for our sake and not for our hurt. If I was to summarize what reading the OT was like for me I would express it with this verse:

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." 2 Corinthians 5:16

You see for me, and the way that I was led by the Lord, The Father and the Son became One. And that's why I am a Jesus Witness rather than a Jehovah's Witness, because the name Jesus includes both the Father and the Son:

"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

 

[JesusBeliever]

It might have been true that the whole world would forget Jehovah without the Jehovah's Witnesses to preach Jehovah, which is something they propose

Just another quick thought on this statement brother, I wonder if the reason we've been called here is to remind our brethren in the JWs not to forget Jesus either!

 

[savagewind]

Just another quick thought on this statement brother, I wonder if the reason we've been called here is to remind our brethren in the JWs not to forget Jesus either!

Perhaps. It is written that with what judgement you are judging, you will be judged. They say that false religion will be destroyed. I am warning them to abandon their falsehoods or they will be judged.

 

[savagewind]

Sometimes I wonder if the governing body members know that they put the JWs in jeopardy. If they know, I think they excuse themselves because of their belief in the resurrection when, they trust, everything will be straightened out.

Matthew 12:37 For by your [true] words you will be acquitted, and by your [false] words you will be condemned.

Proverbs 18:21

Proverbs 13:2-3

 

[JesusBeliever]

Sometimes I wonder if the governing body members know that they put the JWs in jeopardy.

Hearing this reminded me of these verses:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded (enclosed) them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Romans 11:25-33

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje, I definitely see a lot of very lovely people for sure, and I can truly understand your joy! You have said enough to convince me that you are truly a sincere believer in the Lord and the JW organisation. Which is why despite my discomfort during some of our conversations, I've been willing to endure. And look, I would even go so far to say that the video you shared served as a good reminder to me that there are many sincere and devoted believers in Christ in the JWs, and it encourages me to tread gently. Coz I would never want to be found responsible for trampling on a person's faith and joy in the Lord. This is definitely a hard one!

Coz what I'm trying to help you see is that the JW doctrine unwittingly causes you to trample on other people's faith and joy in the Lord. If it only allowed us to share in that faith and joy together, I too would be rejoicing with you!

(Hope you don't mind that I borrowed your emoticons! )

These little guys express the joy at belonging to such an amazing universal family. You can't fake that! This scene is replicated all over the world when Jehovah's people come together at our annual conventions. We have International conventions like that one every four years. They are such memorable events that they touch the heart in ways no other gatherings can. Our last one in Australia was in Melbourne and it turned that city on its head. Authorities had never seen such an orderly and well behaved crowd. We left the stadium cleaner than what we found it with an army of willing volunteers before, during, and after the convention to make sure things were clean and presentable as an acceptable place for worship.

There can be no interfaith with those who do not accept the truth of God's word as one united body. We are a true brotherhood, not a group of independent believers who argue doctrinally with each other behind the scenes. We fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:10 and we meet together regularly as Hebrews 10:24, 25 tell us to do.

It is interesting to me that there are people who want to paint us in the worst light as if we are the most evil and deceived people on earth. The fact is, there is no one in that video who is there because they are forced or coerced in any way. The love is genuine and those who have left us are probably among the most miserable people on earth because they will not find that anywhere else. (Not to say that there aren't local congregations of people who are loving, but they cannot replicate that on a global scale) The defectors have nowhere to go because once you learn the truth, you can't 'unlearn' it. You can fight it and you can complain about all sorts of things, but if you do, then you don't belong with us....it's really that simple. People are free to take their issues and leave. We have better things to do than argue.....but we will defend when challenged....vigorously.

God won't change to accommodate the whims of a few dissenters. We obey those who take the lead and submit to their direction willingly. (Hebrews 13:17) Those who can't or won't do that, have no place with us. Outside looking in is not a good vantage point IMO.....I was there once and I will never be there again. I love the truth and I love being a member of this family. There is no other international body of believers who can compare with what we have or what we do. And no amount of whining on the part of dissenters or defectors will dampen the spirit that is clearly evident in our midst. We are by no means perfect, but our brotherhood is the most obedient on earth to the teachings of the Christ. I can say that with absolute conviction.
Those who want to dictate to God and his "faithful and discreet slave" are not only missing from our ranks...but I believe that they have not been invited.

(John 6:44)

 

[Deeje]

According to this Religious Landscape Survey, 63% of those raised in the religion seem to be miserable and do not want to be found among such ________ people:

"Jehovah’s Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of any religious tradition. Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses." source​

​

So we are reduced to stats now? What percentage of Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah?

We do not tolerate those who want their own way whilst pretending to follow God's way. We don't get to do our own thing for the simple reason, that when we dedicate our lives to God, we actually mean it. Our own wants and needs are put aside whilst we put the interests of God's Kingdom first (Matthew 6:33) and our own selfish pursuits second.
Unrepentant wrongdoers are missing from our ranks because we disfellowship them. We make no apology for that. The way is always open to return if they meet the criteria. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) Who wants to retain dissenters and those who thumb their noses at God's laws? Being a Christian has never been about the numbers. (Matthew 7:13, 14) Its about faith without compromise.

Just being raised as a Witness is no guarantee that our children will follow our way of life. We do not force them but we understand that the world is ruled by satan and there are traps for the unwary and inexperienced. (1 John 2:15-17; 5:19) We give them warnings, but at the end of the day, it is a hard life being obedient to God and the teachings of Jesus Christ in this environment. Self interest often wins out over the fallen flesh....even with adults.

 

[savagewind]

​

it is a hard life being obedient to God and the teachings of Jesus Christ in this environment.

I do not understand this sentence. In what environment and for whom is it hard? 1 John 5:3 Matthew 11:30

Self interest often wins out over the fallen flesh....even with adults.

The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses train their people to work very hard now so that they can enjoy life on a paradise Earth forever.

I found it harder to control my urges when I was a JW than I do now. The Watchtower lies to you when it says those who leave the JWs do it because they are sinners.

 

[Deeje]

I do not understand this sentence. In what environment and for whom is it hard? 1 John 5:3 Matthew 11:30

It is hard for those with self interest as their primary driving force to follow Christ's teachings. (Romans 7:21-25) Those who find obedience to God easy cannot be overreached by the devil to self interest.

The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses train their people to work very hard now so that they can enjoy life on a paradise Earth forever.

I found it harder to control my urges when I was a JW than I do now. The Watchtower lies to you when it says those who leave the JWs do it because they are sinners.

Funny...I don't have any urges to do what Jehovah hates. What he hates is what I hate. The Watchtower has never lied to me in my life.

Understanding what "sin" is helps us to comprehend what it means to God, not just to man. It means falling short of the mark. Those who leave the ranks of Jehovah's people do not return to the beliefs of Babylon the great and expect God to make an exception for them when he brings her to an accounting. If we are not out of that disgusting 'city' and aboard the only 'ark of salvation' provided by God through the "faithful and discreet slave" that was appointed by the Master himself to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time", then we are swimming with the sharks and will go down with that wicked institution just as surely as did those in Noah's day who ridiculed the builder of the only means of salvation there was at that time. Did public opinion win out on the day? How did the ridiculers feel when the water started to swirl around their knees? Too late then to jump on board.
It wasn't Noah who closed the door.