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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
@JesusBeliever

I totally get how you feel brother!

I don't resent them at all, in fact admire them for the courage to endure going
door to door. I've done that in the past with an older man, an elder, and people can
be mean as #ell.
There is no reason to be mean to people that believe they are helping others.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
But they don't make it easy!:angry::handpointright::menholdinghands::holdinghands:
See, there it goes again! :handpointright: :facepalm::handpointleft:
"Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;" Isaiah 58:9
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Dunno, just bringing up the relevant to subject, verse, in my opinion. Bear in mind that I am a 'Jesus = JHVH', believer, so, am not going to agree with everyone here.
That helps me to see that it really is in me!
That bitter root I mean.
I had a dream a couple of nights ago that I recognised it and ripped it out, so I've been examining myself a lot lately to see if it's still in me.
It occurred in 2 parts, where I found some residual root still in me.
So thank you for helping me see it and sorry for thinking you were implying something that you weren't.
I don't wanna be responsible for defiling many.
But I recognise that as long as it's in me, that's all I'm capable of doing.
So my hands are pointed where they need to be :handpointright: :facepalm::handpointleft:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Sadly I was raised by a father that believed in "god" but never once attended any
church service, nor cracked open a Bible.
Even MORE sad is the fact that I was raised by a J.W. mother.
Now that I'm much, much, older I realize the poor woman was nutty as a fruit cake!
Dad was an alcoholic. Mother was a closet alcoholic that hid her disease behind dads and
behind the J.W. congregation who at that time chose to ignore alcoholism and pronounced
the disease as a "sin" unworthy of a J.W.
Eventually mothers hidden conduct was found out and instead of the "brothers"
offering her help and loving counseling they booted her out publicly.

Were you privy to her judicial hearing? Do you know if she was offered counsel? You post a lot of assumptions it seems to me...very lop sided ones.
Your family's alcohol abuse was a tragedy and sadly it seems you have inherited the family's drinking problem exacerbated by an unfortunate choice of career.
Yet for a Christian, drunkenness is still a sin...regardless of the cause. Treatments are available but they don't work until you know how to go back and heal the child or the adult who was scarred by the abuse. Strategies can then be implemented to help overcome the urge to drink.
We know what the "stinkin' thinkin'" is and how to avoid it. Did your mother ever get any professional help? The elders are not drug counselors. They are not qualified to treat mental health issues either. They leave that for the experts.

These days there is more understanding about the causes behind alcohol or drug abuse.
Jehovah has helped so many to clean up their lives. They rely on his spirit now instead of the one in the bottle.

Mother's drinking killed her.

It sounds more like your mother's mental illness was the main contributing factor in her demise.
Alcohol was merely the vehicle. From what you have described of her, she did not exactly have a Christian personality....and likely the victim of abuse herself. Jehovah knows what has made us who we are.
Its easy to call yourself whatever you like, but harder to live up to it. Religious labels are meaningless unless they help to alter bad personality traits and habits. That is when you see the difference between a relationship to an organization or church and a personal relationship with God.

Never mind that a J.W. man molested my sister when she was but 12 years old.

Actually no genuine Witness of Jehovah could molest a child or do harm to a fellow human in any way. We know that Jehovah is always watching, so nothing is hidden from his sight. (Hebrews 4:13)
The moment a person acts on an evil impulse, they have already come to Jehovah's attention.
We are all sinful by nature, but some have hidden inclinations that are not obvious to others. Pedophiles do not exactly have their inclinations tattooed across their forehead.
If they confess the wrong and own up, accepting discipline and repenting of the action, they will be forgiven.

God has empowered the Elders to act in a judicial capacity within the congregations. He will judge those outside. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
If no repentance is demonstrated, after many attempts to counsel the individual, then the wrongdoer will be disfellowshipped.

Once at a Sunday meeting the "elders" spotted a pack of smokes in a female
J.W. purse. Those fine men had a private meeting and booted her out publicly.

Smoking is drug abuse. Do you know for a fact that she was not counseled? No one can be disfellowshipped without a fair hearing.
No one who abuses drugs recreationally can be a Witness of Jehovah.
Again, I see your version of events and they sound very suspect to me....very devoid of any detail that might explain our reaction to them. And they obviously happened a very long time ago, yet you tell them as if they happened yesterday. It was a different world yesterday.

It seems like the stories you tell are purposely very one sided. I find them extremely biased in the telling. I don't believe them as you tell them. Half truths are worse than outright lies.
There are two sides to every story, but we never get to hear the other side.

I was raised in the country where us boys grew up hunting and fishing.
I had a Bible study with a J.W. when I was a young man.
The J.W. saw a hunting gun and was upset saying I should toss the thing in
the river or die with the rest of the world at Armageddon.
Really?

Yes, I have to say "really?" too. I know many of my brothers who live in country areas who hunt with rifles.
They shoot predators who threaten their flocks and herds.
They shoot feral animals to feed their dogs and have no intent to shoot any human....so I believe that this is just another distorted story from you.
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Extremist views result in extremist actions.
Then there was uncle Mike (r.i.p.) who might have been the finest example
of a father, husband, AND spiritual adviser who I've ever known
and he was a J.W. and a darned fine hero to me.
His son, Mike Jr. is a J.W. and twice disfellowshiped but reinstated and now
a fine example of a true Christian.

So your family weren't a dead loss to Jehovah then......that is nice to know.
I know many like your uncle and his son....who have never been disfellowshipped.
But twice reinstated means that he 'produced the fruits that befit repentance'. Good on him!
Its really not about the sin, but rather what you do about sinning.

Oh, and I don't feel the Governing Body is any more "inspired" of "god"
than any other living human.

The GB have never claimed to be "inspired".....that is for scripture and the writings of the GB are not scripture. That is why we smile when people dig up old publications that are no longer relevant to our current understanding. That is like digging up old newspapers. Interesting to see where we were and how far we have progressed.
Jesus appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" to feed us our "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45)
They have done an awesome job and we love them. If Jesus didn't love them, he would not have appointed them.

Don't worry, if you are looking for excuses to stay out of the congregation, and not be told what to do by the GB, then God will let you find as many as you need.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
For those who might be interested.....

Miʹcha·el [Who Is Like God?].

"The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator."
(Insight Volumes WTBTS)
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
God has empowered the Elders to act in a judicial capacity within the congregations. He will judge those outside. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
Don't mind Deeje, jeagor106 coz she has a habit of forgetting that God judges those outside:
Repressed hostilities are really getting a workout on this thread.
Just_Cuz_15.gif
If Deeje is a taste of the Elders judicial capacity, I would rather submit to God's judgment on the outside anyday:

"Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach." Hebrews 13:12-13
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Repressed hostilities are really getting a workout on this thread.
Just_Cuz_15.gif
Ya know Deeje, I think I've actually got to thank you! :smile:
Coz your "directness" has actually been helping to expose those past wounds, that hadn't been healed by the Lord yet.
Kind of like ripping the scab off an ulcer.
I know this from second-hand experience that in order to heal an ulcer, you have to take the scab off and scrape out all the infected pus until you get down to the raw flesh. And you're "directness" has definitely helped in this process, so that the next stage of healing can truly do it's job:

""But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him." Luke 10:33-34

I feel a song coming on...

 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/michael.shtml

Just one of many sites.
I have no idea what J.W. dogma is concerning this topic.
Can someone shed some light & perhaps some scripture?

Done.

I doubt there are many, if any J.W.s active on this site.
Apparently being a posting member here is frowned upon by the W.T.B.&T.
Society.
Can anyone shed some insight on that issue?

It wasn't a blanket ban of internet witnessing, but a caution for those who lived in countries where our work is banned.
Authorities scan web use for intelligence gathering and our interested ones could face arrest for associating with us online.

I was associated with a local congregation of J.W.s long, long, ago for a number
of years.
I was out of work and had an opportunity to join the local police force
where I served with distinction, became a detective, Chief of Investigations,
then Lieutenant and S.W.A.T. commander.
I suffered 13 serious injuries, 6 commendations for valor, numerous community service awards, and disabled with my 4th broken back.
Then I rehabbed, entered college, earned 2 degrees, and retired again from
G.M.
I was shunned by my former J.W. friends for all that.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, you were shunned for not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. To carry a weapon indicates intent to use it.
Training for the police force or the military also demonstrates intent to harm others at the command of men.
Patting yourself on the back for your disobedience is hardly something Jesus would commend you for.
Accolades from men mean nothing to God.
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODIntExp/docid-502016525_1_VIDEO

The police service and the college education!!!!!!

That is not true. The college education served you in what way? Did it bring you closer to Jehovah? Did it give you opportunities to further the interests of the kingdom of God? Were you benefited spiritually in any way?

We know that college campuses are no place for Christians. It is an environment rife with immorality, drugs and alcohol abuse....not a fitting place for a Christian to want to be.
Now there are online courses so that our young ones can study for whatever they wish to do with their lives. Many choose to serve God as a full time career. The rewards are amazing and the boss is the best in the world...did I mention the pay? Everlasting life in paradise!
bliss.gif
What human can promise you that?
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMinistry/docid-502014231_1_VIDEO

Almost NO J.W. gets a college degree because the "time is short" so time should be
spent spreading the good news.
Damn! Really?

It is closer today than it was yesterday. If we dedicate ourselves to God, then his interests should always come first. (Matthew 6:33)
You don't like being told what to do, do you? Not even by Jesus Christ? That is an attitude that will lead you nowhere spiritually.
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Upon learning I joined the force some J.W. elders caught me after attending a
service and took me to the basement office and scolded me for being part of
"this world" and carrying a firearm.
Never mind that I served over 2 decades and NEVER fired a shot at another
human!

You trained to kill humans and you carried a weapon specifically designed to use on human beings...that is sufficient to show intent.
The fact that you never killed anyone is irrelevant. Fortunately for you, you never needed to.

Never mind that I knew J.W. members that served in Viet Nam and killed people
AFTER being baptized Witnesses. Those brave men were also disfellowshiped
but later reinstated after being shunned for a full year.

Nationalism is the 'religion' of satan's world ...it is under his control. (James 4:4; 1 John 5:19) It plays on divided loyalties...one of the devil's favorite tactics. A divided heart cannot serve God and man.
Anyone who will disobey the Christ in order to obey men is a poor excuse for a disciple. (Acts 5:29)
I am glad these men saw that their actions were against everything Jesus taught.

I have NOTHING against that religion or the members to this day but understand
that I am a bit "sour" over my bad experiences.
RE: my sig line, "learning more about Jehovah".
I believe that is God's name.
Sorry for the rant. Evidently I have some repressed resentments.

You are "sour" because it appears that you couldn't do as you were told and you reaped the consequences of your own actions. (Hebrews 13:17) No wonder you never got to baptism...I wonder what sort of a nightmare you would have been as a brother!
3ztzsjm.gif
"I did it MY WAY" is a moving song, but not good practice for a Christian.

Sorry if I appear to be targeting you, but your posts seems to be filled with some terrible deed done to you or yours in the name of Jehovah.....reading between the lines however, I think you are kidding yourself. That is just my opinion of course. You blame everyone but yourself.

Self justification is a common practice for some....but where will it lead? Who are "doing the will of God" today? (Matthew 7:21-23) We need to find them and do our best to live as Christ commanded us.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Done.



It wasn't a blanket ban of internet witnessing, but a caution for those who lived in countries where our work is banned.
Authorities scan web use for intelligence gathering and our interested ones could face arrest for associating with us online.



No, you were shunned for not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. To carry a weapon indicates intent to use it.
Training for the police force or the military also demonstrates intent to harm others at the command of men.
Patting yourself on the back for your disobedience is hardly something Jesus would commend you for.
Accolades from men mean nothing to God.
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODIntExp/docid-502016525_1_VIDEO



That is not true. The college education served you in what way? Did it bring you closer to Jehovah? Did it give you opportunities to further the interests of the kingdom of God? Were you benefited spiritually in any way?

We know that college campuses are no place for Christians. It is an environment rife with immorality, drugs and alcohol abuse....not a fitting place for a Christian to want to be.
Now there are online courses so that our young ones can study for whatever they wish to do with their lives. Many choose to serve God as a full time career. The rewards are amazing and the boss is the best in the world...did I mention the pay? Everlasting life in paradise!
bliss.gif
What human can promise you that?
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMinistry/docid-502014231_1_VIDEO



It is closer today than it was yesterday. If we dedicate ourselves to God, then his interests should always come first. (Matthew 6:33)
You don't like being told what to do, do you? Not even by Jesus Christ? That is an attitude that will lead you nowhere spiritually.
198.gif




You trained to kill humans and you carried a weapon specifically designed to use on human beings...that is sufficient to show intent.
The fact that you never killed anyone is irrelevant. Fortunately for you, you never needed to.



Nationalism is the 'religion' of satan's world ...it is under his control. (James 4:4; 1 John 5:19) It plays on divided loyalties...one of the devil's favorite tactics. A divided heart cannot serve God and man.
Anyone who will disobey the Christ in order to obey men is a poor excuse for a disciple. (Acts 5:29)
I am glad these men saw that their actions were against everything Jesus taught.



You are "sour" because it appears that you couldn't do as you were told and you reaped the consequences of your own actions. (Hebrews 13:17) No wonder you never got to baptism...I wonder what sort of a nightmare you would have been as a brother!
3ztzsjm.gif
"I did it MY WAY" is a moving song, but not good practice for a Christian.

Sorry if I appear to be targeting you, but your posts seems to be filled with some terrible deed done to you or yours in the name of Jehovah.....reading between the lines however, I think you are kidding yourself. That is just my opinion of course. You blame everyone but yourself.

Self justification is a common practice for some....but where will it lead? Who are "doing the will of God" today? (Matthew 7:21-23) We need to find them and do our best to live as Christ commanded us.
Ya know Deeje, there's actually a lot of really good stuff in your post which is why I liked it. It's just sad that you think that one can only obey these things by being a JW.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
You are "sour" because it appears that you couldn't do as you were told and you reaped the consequences of your own actions. (Hebrews 13:17) No wonder you never got to baptism...I wonder what sort of a nightmare you would have been as a brother!
3ztzsjm.gif
"I did it MY WAY" is a moving song, but not good practice for a Christian.
I think you need to really think about this Deeje, coz you say it appears that a Police Officer couldn't do as s/he was told?
If s/he was such a nightmare at following orders as you propose, I doubt they would have let them on the Police Force!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You just did enter the fray my dear lady.
Oh, I believe the same thing f.w.i.w.
And I do love you.:hugehug:
Enter I shall. i love you too and I am intrigued by your biography.

I am certain God is REAL. On the other hand, I think Jesus is real only to those who make him real. So they can't be the same imo.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No! Lord means Lord and God means God. The question is, is the Lord, God?
And I'll tell you plainly that I believe our Lord is God!
Syncretic seems to imply that I've been keeping that a secret.
As if my other posts can't be seen by all.
Now I have a question for any JW who can answer it:
Where is the Scriptural evidence for JW claims that Jesus was or is the Angel Michael?
Not all lords are gods. According to scripture, God gave us Jesus to be Lord over us. But, because God is ONE and has really and truly said so, if you make Jesus God, you have disregarded what God has said imho and because God is always present, IS SAYING. Jesus isn't always present. Ask a sick, hungry and abused orphan if Jesus is present with him.

Why does nobody explain to me why Jesus must be God or that Jesus must not be thought of as God?
 
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