Leviticus 23 Holy days

[Rival]

I will spare seven thousand in Isra'el, every knee that hasn't bent down before Ba'al and every mouth that has not kissed him."

Have you even read this? You refuted your own argument.

 

[rosends]

I believe the equinox is used for determining the first month. Usually it falls on 21 march, but can shift.

If using an "upside down" T on the day of equinox , the shadow made by the sun of the vertical of the T would be equal in length throughout the day.

Planting a stick in the ground would also achieve this.

That's interesting. Why would one use the equinox (and if so, which equinox would one use, autumnal or vernal, and why)? The text indicates that the first month (when counting from the exodus) was computed based on just that, the exodus, and then proceeding via lunar calculations. Relying on the solar progress comes from where?

In Hebrew, the word for month is chodesh (same root as the word for "new" chadash) and even in English, "month" is related to "moon." So why use the sun?

 

[dybmh]

I do not know how. Could you assist ?

Definitely. But I see I am pages and pages behind on this thread so send me a PM? OK?

 

[dybmh]

dybmh, The idea is not to try and be precise, the idea is to show Christians the basics of how one gets to the days that is mentioned in Leviticus23 .

When I turned around from my pagan roots, this was a very critical problem I had in not understanding how this is accomplished.

When leaving your pagan feasts behind, you now have to adapt/change to our Creators Holy days. If you are alone in the Nations, this is VERY VERY difficult to achieve without input/help from our Jewish brethren.

Regarding this, I will quote my friend Rival ( who may have been quoting it from elsewhere ).

"Salad Bowl not Melting Pot". You can practice whatever you want. Just don't try to convince me that I'm wrong. ... ahem ... it's, rude.

That said, I enjoy learning about these things, so I do hope you PM me so we can talk about it.

 

[Rival]

Regarding this, I will quote my friend Rival ( who may have been quoting it from elsewhere ).

"Salad Bowl not Melting Pot".

And I, in turn, took it from Tumah:

The Melting Pot is dead! Long live the Salad Bowl!

 

[Wandering Monk]

I was just being honest with you. Our religions are nothing alike and I don't appreciate you trying to work your way into our community. I don't mind that you're a Christian, I really don't make it my affair, but when you try to align yourself with a group of people who are telling you we're not the same, I don't appreciate that.

It's kind of like breaking into someone's house and telling them they need to rearrange the furniture.

 

[dybmh]

And I, in turn, took it from Tumah:

And in turn I'm searching salad bowl on RF to see who said it first. There's 31 results.

Originally I was going to see who said it first, you or Tumah or maybe someone else...

But I didn't get that far, because I got distracted by one of @Katzpur posts about some wooden spoons and a salad bowl or something. And now I want to go read about that.

Bye.

Edit to add, this is page 6, and I have no idea what's been said on 5 of those pages.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Please, do not twist my writings into hateful jibberish.

I mean the Jews no harm.

Nah, you just want to blur the lines about who is Jewish and who is not, thus erasing their identity.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Ok.

I on the other hand am part of the 10 tribes that are still lost(as a Ger).

Which tribe are you from?

 

[roberto]

Nah, you just want to blur the lines about who is Jewish and who is not, thus erasing their identity.

Ok, if this seems to be the general idea, then I'm out of this forum.

I voluntarily ask to be banned.

Shalom be with you all.

 

[Tumah]

Ok, if this seems to be the general idea, then I'm out of this forum.

I voluntarily ask to be banned.

Shalom be with you all.

I think the general idea, is that you give off the impression as though you think you're revealing some big secret that no one ever realized, when in reality, you're simply misinterpreting the verses your quoting. But because you've tied your identity to those verses, you're having trouble realizing this.

 

[oldbadger]

How would one go about it?

First of all you would have to determine Equinox day....., how would you do that in the bush.
Then one would have to determine New-moon day/time......, how would you do that in the bush?

There is evidence that mankind could determine all of the above accurately several millenia ago.

Stop thinking of clocks and start thinking of celestial time and most ancient events might 'click' in to place more easily?

 

[oldbadger]

...............................................................
In Hebrew, the word for month is chodesh (same root as the word for "new" chadash) and even in English, "month" is related to "moon." So why use the sun?

Thanks for the link between 'month' and 'moon'.
The Sun would have value because the first (and subsequent) annual moon phases would be set by (or from) the midwinter solstice, possibly?

 

[Rival]

Ok, if this seems to be the general idea, then I'm out of this forum.

I voluntarily ask to be banned.

Shalom be with you all.

You've been told the proper procedure for asking this. Either PM a staffmember or start a Site Feedback thread.

 

[dybmh]

Why would one use the equinox

Because, he wants to calculate the time "ba'midbar". And he assumes that the moon doesn't cast a shadow? The OP emphasized this idea of calculating the time "in the bush". Maybe that's why the equinox is so important, and a lunar system is ruled out for the OP?

take a look at this?

I believe the equinox is used for determining the first month. Usually it falls on 21 march, but can shift.

If using an "upside down" T on the day of equinox , the shadow made by the sun of the vertical of the T would be equal in length throughout the day.

Planting a stick in the ground would also achieve this.

It's a sun dial.

Maybe the assumption is that one can't use a stick to calculate the time without the sun? Because there won't be a shadow. That means the "sun dial" approach wouldn't work.

Except that the moon does cast a shadow. Maybe the OP doesn't know that?

Here's a picture I found on reddit. The person says they took it at 1:00AM.

@roberto, Does this help?

 

[rosends]

Thanks for the link between 'month' and 'moon'.
The Sun would have value because the first (and subsequent) annual moon phases would be set by (or from) the midwinter solstice, possibly?

so why the midwinter solstice and not midsummer? A true cycle starts and ends every day. Picking any single point to be the "first" moment has to have a reason. In Judaism, it was done either to commemorate the exodus or the creation of the world. (though that's a bit of an over-simplification)

 

[Wandering Monk]

The way I understand it, Aviv must fall in the Spring, so Aviv cannot be any new moon before the vernal equinox. It must begin on the first new moon AFTER the vernal equinox.

The vernal equinox is a solar phenomenon The calculation of Rosh Chodesh Aviv is tied to the vernal equinox. This is why the Jewish calendar is not a lunar calendar like the Islamic calendar is.

The Jewish calendar is sometimes called a bound lunar-solar calendar.

On the Islamic calendar, the fast of Ramadan moves through the seasons because a lunar year is only about 354 days so there is an eleven day difference between the solar and lunar year.

 

[rosends]

The way I understand it, Aviv must fall in the Spring, so Aviv cannot be any new moon before the vernal equinox. It must begin on the first new moon AFTER the vernal equinox.

The vernal equinox is a solar phenomenon The calculation of Rosh Chodesh Aviv is tied to the vernal equinox. This is why the Jewish calendar is not a lunar calendar like the Islamic calendar is.

The Jewish calendar is sometimes called a bound lunar-solar calendar.

On the Islamic calendar, the fast of Ramadan moves through the seasons because a lunar year is only about 354 days so there is an eleven day difference between the solar and lunar year.

Yes, all this is true -- the Jewish calendar is a solar adjusted lunar calendar, but that adjustment in order to keep something in the springtime was fixed through the oral law and is not textual -- the text simply names the month of the exodus as Aviv. Someone sticking with the biblical text wouldn't have that approach requiring Aviv to be in the spring. So I'm trying to figure out how anyone not bound by a particular interpretive schema would decide on that.

A side note -- if you take a look at the calendar for 2013 you will see that the Spring began a couple of days before Passover, but after the first of that month of Nisan. So establishing the first new moon would be before the equinox.
Why is This Pesach the Earliest Since 1899? - Yeshiva World News

 

[oldbadger]

so why the midwinter solstice and not midsummer? A true cycle starts and ends every day. Picking any single point to be the "first" moment has to have a reason. In Judaism, it was done either to commemorate the exodus or the creation of the world. (though that's a bit of an over-simplification)

Because midwinter initiated new beginning, or returning.
But, ok, annual cycles could be initiated from mid summer solstice.
And lunar cycles counted from that point.

Exodus had to occur on a spring equinoctial full moon when HATs were lowest ebbs and highest fulls. (Highest astronomical tides), ergo mid winter or mid summer tides no good.

 

[rosends]

Because midwinter initiated new beginning, or returning.
But, ok, annual cycles could be initiated from mid summer solstice.
And lunar cycles counted from that point.

Exodus had to occur on a spring equinoctial full moon when HATs were lowest ebbs and highest fulls. (Highest astronomical tides), ergo mid winter or mid summer tides no good.

Are you assuming that the crossing of the Reed Sea was an astronomically defined event? If so, then you certainly can explain why the spring. But then you stop relying on the text which claims that it was something else. Also, I wonder why, if the midwinter solstice indicates a new beginning, the cycle of months wasn't computed from then. The text establishes which is the "first month" but this now has to be a combined application -- it is a month which has to be after the midwinter which indicates rebirth, but not until after (or, as shown, sometimes right before) the equinox. Not exactly the kind of thing anyone would stumble upon.