Life Begins at Conception

[DarkSun]

I hope that you are not going to be like DarkSun who also cannot be true to his word and has sent two or three supposedly last posts to me. Post 180: At the risk of being censured, "Up yours." We're done. I received an infraction for calling someone an "ignorant child", I am assuming that you must have received one also for your little "UP YOURS" comment

Yeah, well, you smell and I'm dobbing on you.

 

[S-word]

Yeah, well, you smell and I'm dobbing on you.

Oh please dont dob me in to the authorities, the punishment they would inflict on me would be more that I could bear, I have such a low tolerance to pain, please don't dob me in please, please, please, please,please. Build yourself a bridge young fellow and get over it.

And you are correct, I do smell, and I smell something bad.

 

[DarkSun]

Oh please dont dob me in to the authorities, the punishment they would inflict on me would be more that I could bear, I have such a low tolerance to pain, please don't dob me in please, please, please, please,please. Build yourself a bridge young fellow and get over it.

And you are correct, I do smell, and I smell something bad.

Me too.

 

[DarkSun]

So it is just fine to play god when it is something you agree with, but not ok to play god when it is something you disagree with?

Refer to exodus 20: 13.

You're right, I do personally object to murder, but I'm not the only one.

I had already stated in another thread called "Are Human Embryos Human beings" that I will do everything in my power to convince a member of my family to take their pregnancy to its full term unless the foetus is severely malformed, but in the end it would have to be the decision of the female member of the family, and if it was her choice to abort, it would be done with my full support.

And so to both of your questions I would not advise these women one way or another

If the woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, thought that she could handle having another child, then so be it, I have no authority over her life; if on the other hand she wished to abort rather than put another child through suffering caused by her syphilis, then she would have my total support.

As to the second poor black family in the South expecting a fifth child, and because of that families skin color, they already have difficulty receiving help and are already at the bare minimum poverty level, and the outlook for their present children does not look bright. Same scenario mate, same scenario.

You would say that she has the choice to abort her child? Okay.

Well if she did choose to in the first scenario I gave you, she would have killed Beethoven. In the second instance the mother would have killed Martin Luther King. Those are the conditions of their birth.

Every human life if precious. Every life has a purpose in this world. To deny them that is cruel beyond measure.

Are you saying then, that when you meet someone, "And you will," who are ignorant to certain facts that you know to be true, and you understand that by allowing that person to remain in their ignorance it will lead them into sever trouble if not death, you will walk away and allow them to blindly stumble on into that which you know lies ahead for them? Well good luck in what's left of your life.

Just because I disagree with a viewpoint does not mean I think the person who has it is inferior. Right and wrong are subjective viewpoints which vary depending on the individual, and because of this, just because I may disagree with something, that does not make what I'm disagreeing with any less valid than my own view.

[/color]]By S-word: No, not because you disagree with me, but because you say that you believe that life did not begin until conception, when you know very well that life exists in all living beings and is passed down from generation to generation of all the living species from which we evolved.

So it is because I disagree with you?

][/font]By S-word: I live off the land and we kill our own meat; every week I bring to an end the life of many creatures such as fish, birds and animals, do you do as Cain did to his brother, and accuse me as a murderer?

This thread concerns human life. As such, this comment is irrelevant.

][/font]By S-word: You are correct, a gamete (A mature living animal sperm capable of particapating in fertilisation) only has the Potential to become a human being after the fertilisation of a cell of the animal ovary, or an oocyte, but like you have stated, it then only has the potential to become a human being after it has gone through the animal stages in the growth and development of a human baby.

So you'd flush this potential down the toilet rather than allow it to develop? And what's the difference between a sixteen month fetus and a newborn baby, by the way? Why is it all right to kill one and not the other? They're both as sapient and sentient as each other.

][/font]By S-word: I am as certain that the dissolution of a living organism of genetic material that is not bounded by a nuclear membrane is different from murdering a human being as I am that aborting a developing foetus is also not the same as murdering a human being.

There is a massive difference between a human and a microbe. And no, a fetus is NOT akin to a microbe.

][/font]quote=DarkSun; Well done using the quote function there. By S-word: Thank you.

*Sigh.*

Okay, I'll rephrase.

Please use the quote function next time

Sifting through that was very tedious.

 

[S-word]

Refer to exodus 20: 13.

You're right, I do personally object to murder, but I'm not the only one.



You would say that she has the choice to abort her child? Okay.

Well if she did choose to in the first scenario I gave you, she would have killed Beethoven. In the second instance the mother would have killed Martin Luther King. Those are the conditions of their birth.

Every human life if precious. Every life has a purpose in this world. To deny them that is cruel beyond measure.



Just because I disagree with a viewpoint does not mean I think the person who has it is inferior. Right and wrong are subjective viewpoints which vary depending on the individual, and because of this, just because I may disagree with something, that does not make what I'm disagreeing with any less valid than my own view.



So it is because I disagree with you?



This thread concerns human life. As such, this comment is irrelevant.



So you'd flush this potential down the toilet rather than allow it to develop? And what's the difference between a sixteen month fetus and a newborn baby, by the way? Why is it all right to kill one and not the other? They're both as sapient and sentient as each other.



There is a massive difference between a human and a microbe. And no, a fetus is NOT akin to a microbe.



*Sigh.*

Okay, I'll rephrase.

Please use the quote function next time

Sifting through that was very tedious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S-word;1628196[FONT=Trebuchet MS[/FONT]
]quote=DarkSun; Well done using the quote function there. By S-word: Thank you.


Quote..DarkSun: *Sigh.*

Okay, I'll rephrase.

Please use the quote function next time

Sifting through that was very tedious.

By S-word: No mate, I do things in the way that pleases me, and as there is no law to say that I must use the quote function as you demand, I will continue to do it my way.
Does it hurt when people refuse to bow to your will?

You have "Truth" as your religion and you don't believe that there is such a thing as truth, Ha Haaa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S-word
I had already stated in another thread called "Are Human Embryos Human beings" that I will do everything in my power to convince a member of my family to take their pregnancy to its full term unless the foetus is severely malformed, but in the end it would have to be the decision of the female member of the family, and if it was her choice to abort, it would be done with my full support.

And so to both of your questions I would not advise these women one way or another

If the woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, thought that she could handle having another child, then so be it, I have no authority over her life; if on the other hand she wished to abort rather than put another child through suffering caused by her syphilis, then she would have my total support.

As to the second poor black family in the South expecting a fifth child, and because of that families skin color, they already have difficulty receiving help and are already at the bare minimum poverty level, and the outlook for their present children does not look bright. Same scenario mate, same scenario.


By S-word: The first thing you learn on this forum is to, First identify and smell the bait, then check that any hooks imbedded therein have no barbs, before running with it and beginning the battle.

Quote..DarkSun: You would say that she has the choice to abort her child? Okay.

By S-word: Of course, unlike the anti-abortion lobby I would never attempt to force my will on others.

Quote..DarkSun: Well if she did choose to in the first scenario I gave you, she would have killed Beethoven. In the second instance the mother would have killed Martin Luther King. Those are the conditions of their birth.

By S-word: Good on them, and as I have already stated above, If I had been there I would have supported their decision to go ahead with their pregnancy.

Quote..DarkSun: Every human life if precious. Every life has a purpose in this world. To deny them that is cruel beyond measure.

By S-word: Mate, I can Google up a list longer than your arm of the names of the most notorious pathological murderers and cannibals in the modern history of mankind. I now put this scenario to you; If their mothers wished to abort, before they became human Beings, those animal foetus’ that were forming in their bodies and the anti-abortionist forced them to fulfil their terms of pregnancy against their will; can those self-righteous oozing people, having forced those women to bring children into the world who would never be given any love or parental guidance, be held accountable for the actions of the end result of those enforced births?

This will be my last response to any post of yours in this thread and as I am one who is true to my word, unlike others whose names will not be mentioned, then you can be assured that it is the last response by me to you in this thread. Goodbye.

 

[jtartar]

Hello,
When we try to reason on a problem, we are limited because of our limited knowledge. This is called Dumbing Out. Few times do we come up with the correct answer, we need for someone wih unlimited knowledge to assist us.
When it comes to the question of abortion, there is no need for us to guess, or to Dumb Out this vital question, we have God's word to give the authoritative answer.
Consider what the Bibe says at Ex 21:22-25. Hear we read about the penalty for two people fighting and they hurt a pregnant woman. If the baby is prematurely born, but no fatal accident
occurrs, the husband can ask for damages, but if a fatal accident occurrs, the penalty is death. The Mosaic Law Covenant required life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
There are a few scriptures that bear on this subject, that are of interest to anyone interested to get God's view on this subject.
Consider Jere 1:4, God lets Jeremiah know just how much God knows about any fetus that He wants to know. God clearly viewed Jeremiah alive beore he was born.
Consider too Ps 139:13-16, where David is praising God for the wonderful way mankind is made. Clearly God was interested in David when he was still in the womb.
Another scripture is of interest also. Notice Rom 9:9-11. Here we are told that a person, before being born, had no record, either good or vile. If they had lived as a spirit before conception they would certainly done some thing, either good or bad.

 

[Storm]

Hello,
When we try to reason on a problem, we are limited because of our limited knowledge. This is called Dumbing Out. Few times do we come up with the correct answer, we need for someone wih unlimited knowledge to assist us.
When it comes to the question of abortion, there is no need for us to guess, or to Dumb Out this vital question, we have God's word to give the authoritative answer.

That only works if we all agree that it's God's word. Obviously, we don't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hello,
When we try to reason on a problem, we are limited because of our limited knowledge. This is called Dumbing Out. Few times do we come up with the correct answer, we need for someone wih unlimited knowledge to assist us.
When it comes to the question of abortion, there is no need for us to guess, or to Dumb Out this vital question, we have God's word to give the authoritative answer.
Consider what the Bibe says at Ex 21:22-25. Hear we read about the penalty for two people fighting and they hurt a pregnant woman. If the baby is prematurely born, but no fatal accident
occurrs, the husband can ask for damages, but if a fatal accident occurrs, the penalty is death. The Mosaic Law Covenant required life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

Are you sure the passage refers to the baby being "prematurely born"? Only a few translations I've seen use that term, while others use "miscarried", and others use the term "her fruit departs". The one literal translation I checked says "...and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out".

AFAICT, the passage refers to any expulsion of the fetus from the woman without making a distinction whether it is born alive or dead.

There are a few scriptures that bear on this subject, that are of interest to anyone interested to get God's view on this subject.
Consider Jere 1:4, God lets Jeremiah know just how much God knows about any fetus that He wants to know. God clearly viewed Jeremiah alive beore he was born.

Jeremiah 1:5 says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew (or chose) you". To me, this says not only that God viewed Jeremiah as alive before he was born, but also before he was conceived. It seems that it's more referring to something like the Mormon idea of pre-existant souls than it is some notion that a soul appears in an ovum at the moment of conception.

BTW: in that passage, what do you think is meant by "you"? Is it Jeremiah's soul? If so, how do you know when this soul entered the body?

Consider too Ps 139:13-16, where David is praising God for the wonderful way mankind is made. Clearly God was interested in David when he was still in the womb.

The Gospels also describe how God cares for the birds of the field. Are you a vegetarian?

Another scripture is of interest also. Notice Rom 9:9-11. Here we are told that a person, before being born, had no record, either good or vile. If they had lived as a spirit before conception they would certainly done some thing, either good or bad.

Actually, it talks about birth, not conception: if they had lived as a spirit before birth, they would have certainly done something, either good or bad. If you're going to take a passage out of context and shoehorn it into some patched-together doctrine on abortion, at least do it in a way that's consistent with the text.

 

[S-word]

Are you sure the passage refers to the baby being "prematurely born"? Only a few translations I've seen use that term, while others use "miscarried", and others use the term "her fruit departs". The one literal translation I checked says "...and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out".

AFAICT, the passage refers to any expulsion of the fetus from the woman without making a distinction whether it is born alive or dead.


Jeremiah 1:5 says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew (or chose) you". To me, this says not only that God viewed Jeremiah as alive before he was born, but also before he was conceived. It seems that it's more referring to something like the Mormon idea of pre-existant souls than it is some notion that a soul appears in an ovum at the moment of conception.

BTW: in that passage, what do you think is meant by "you"? Is it Jeremiah's soul? If so, how do you know when this soul entered the body?


The Gospels also describe how God cares for the birds of the field. Are you a vegetarian?


Actually, it talks about birth, not conception: if they had lived as a spirit before birth, they would have certainly done something, either good or bad. If you're going to take a passage out of context and shoehorn it into some patched-together doctrine on abortion, at least do it in a way that's consistent with the text.

Because the Lord God is the Alpha and also the Omega, the Beginning from which all things originated and the End result of all that had come into existence, and who knows every thing that has occured in his Past and in fact able to descend and observe that which is happening in the time periods of his dead past, then when while they were still in the womb of Rebecca, he chose Jacob over Esau who was the first born. it was not because of anything that they had done before their creation in the womb, but what he knew they had done in their lives as human beings.

As to the law in Exodus 21: 22; I'm sure that you will agree that when that law was issued they did not have the tecnology that we have today and any foetus irrelevant of the stage of development it is in, which comes out of that woman would die, unless it was in the very final stages of becoming a Human Being, and the life for life is in referrence to the woman who is a Human being and not to the developing animal body in which a Person, Mind, Spirit, would later develop.

 

[McBell]

Refer to exodus 20: 13.

For what?

You're right, I do personally object to murder, but I'm not the only one.

You seem to have a funny definition of the word 'murder'.
Your appeal to numbers is not the least bit impressive.

Well if she did choose to in the first scenario I gave you, she would have killed Beethoven. In the second instance the mother would have killed Martin Luther King. Those are the conditions of their birth.

Nothing more than a count the hits and ignore the misses appeal to emotion.
Still not impressed.

Every human life if precious. Every life has a purpose in this world. To deny them that is cruel beyond measure.

Three opinions presented as fact.

Just because I disagree with a viewpoint does not mean I think the person who has it is inferior. Right and wrong are subjective viewpoints which vary depending on the individual, and because of this, just because I may disagree with something, that does not make what I'm disagreeing with any less valid than my own view.

Agreed

So you'd flush this potential down the toilet rather than allow it to develop?

Depends entirely on the specifics of each individual case.
But then, I will only be telling you what I would do.
Do I think that what I would do should be made into the law of the land?
No, I do not.

And what's the difference between a sixteen month fetus and a newborn baby, by the way?

A sixteen month fetus?
Perhaps this is a typo?

Why is it all right to kill one and not the other?

The only sixteen month fetus I can think of is that of an elephant.....

There is a massive difference between a human and a microbe. And no, a fetus is NOT akin to a microbe.

Really?
Like what?

 

[DarkSun]

Because the Lord God is the Alpha and also the Omega, the Beginning from which all things originated and the End result of all that had come into existence, and who knows every thing that has occured in his Past and in fact able to descend and observe that which is happening in the time periods of his dead past, then when while they were still in the womb of Rebecca, he chose Jacob over Esau who was the first born. it was not because of anything that they had done before their creation in the womb, but what he knew they had done in their lives as human beings.

As to the law in Exodus 21: 22; I'm sure that you will agree that when that law was issued they did not have the tecnology that we have today and any foetus irrelevant of the stage of development it is in, which comes out of that woman would die, unless it was in the very final stages of becoming a Human Being, and the life for life is in referrence to the woman who is a Human being and not to the developing animal body in which a Person, Mind, Spirit, would later develop.

Nice last post.

Yes, Mestemia, that was a typo. I meant sixteen weeks. Sorry, I was tired.

I'll respond to the rest later. I'm a bit busy at the moment.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Robert Young compiled Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, but it is based upon the King James Translation, not as your question was directed, "to Youngs Bible," and gives the meaning to every Hebrew and Greek word used in the King James translation, even to where 'A' instead of 'THE' appears in that translation, such as Hebrew 5: 8; where other translations interpret "The Son of God," or "God's Son" whereas the correct translation is "A Son of God."

Because the English is forced to observe rules of the Greek language, unless one is familiar with Greek syntax and vocabulary, it’s hard to explain how the Greek ‘eykuos,’ which is used in Luke 2: 5; and has been translated to the English as “with child” is not an exact translation. I hope that you are not going to be like DarkSun who also cannot be true to his word and has sent two or three supposedly last posts to me. Post 180: At the risk of being censured, "Up yours." We're done. I received an infraction for calling someone an "ignorant child", I am assuming that you must have received one also for your little "UP YOURS" comment

Point one: Learn how to use the quotes properly.

Point two. You failed to answer my question. I fail to see why Young, who came up with a translation of the Bible and used "with child" in the instances we are referring to, should be given any credence for an alternative translation in his concordance, your gobbledygook explanation notwithstanding.

Point three: My "were done" is still valid but I could not pass up the chance to show the error of your ways to those who might be taking you seriously (It seems few do).

Point three: Amazingly, no censure.

 

[Sunstone]

I've conceived of a lot of works of art that I've never followed through on to create. But I figure because things begin at conception, I should get paid for them anyway.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

...The one literal translation I checked says "...and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out".

AFAICT, the passage refers to any expulsion of the fetus from the woman without making a distinction whether it is born alive or dead.

They were refered to as "children" not fetus'.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I've conceived of a lot of works of art that I've never followed through on to create. But I figure because things begin at conception, I should get paid for them anyway.

They are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They were refered to as "children" not fetus'.

They are also referred to as "fruit" in some translations. I'd be interested to see what the original word actually was.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them.

Same as a fetus, according to Exodus 21:22.

 

[logician]

"You would say that she has the choice to abort her child? Okay.

Well if she did choose to in the first scenario I gave you, she would have killed Beethoven. In the second instance the mother would have killed Martin Luther King. Those are the conditions of their birth.

Every human life if precious. Every life has a purpose in this world. To deny them that is cruel beyond measure"

Of course, the opposite argument could be made, that aborting Hitler or Mao would have spared the world of immeasurable pain and suffering.

It all depends on how you look at it.

 

[DarkSun]

I've conceived of a lot of works of art that I've never followed through on to create. But I figure because things begin at conception, I should get paid for them anyway.

An idea cannot be murdered since it has not taken physical form. But a baby can be, because it took form and began its existence the moment it was concieved.

 

[DarkSun]

By S-word: No mate, I do things in the way that pleases me, and as there is no law to say that I must use the quote function as you demand, I will continue to do it my way.
Does it hurt when people refuse to bow to your will?

It's got nothing to do with you "bowing" to my "will". It would just make it easier for me if you used the quote function. But if you'd rather make it harder, then I'll cope.

You have "Truth" as your religion and you don't believe that there is such a thing as truth, Ha Haaa.

I see truth as plural, not singular. But again, that's not to say that I don't have my own version of truth.

By S-word: Of course, unlike the anti-abortion lobby I would never attempt to force my will on others.

Okay, so you'd rather the mother force her will onto her unborn child...?

​

*Stab. Stab. Stab.*
BLOOD EVERYWHERE.
​

By S-word: Good on them, and as I have already stated above, If I had been there I would have supported their decision to go ahead with their pregnancy.

Mhm.

By S-word: Mate, I can Google up a list longer than your arm of the names of the most notorious pathological murderers and cannibals in the modern history of mankind. I now put this scenario to you; If their mothers wished to abort, before they became human Beings, those animal foetus’ that were forming in their bodies and the anti-abortionist forced them to fulfil their terms of pregnancy against their will; can those self-righteous oozing people, having forced those women to bring children into the world who would never be given any love or parental guidance, be held accountable for the actions of the end result of those enforced births?

People who turn out to be murderers have a right to live as well.

This will be my last response to any post of yours in this thread and as I am one who is true to my word, unlike others whose names will not be mentioned, then you can be assured that it is the last response by me to you in this thread. Goodbye.

Lol.