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Life Begins at Conception

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smokydot

Well-Known Member
chicken-1.jpg

Nice try. . .

Except for one, all are the first of several steps in the internal process of development to the mature organism.
It's the same organism whether in its first step of the internal process or whether in its last step.

There are no internal processes for the development of a dress.
 
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Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
For some people when life begins has little to do with the abortion debate. They would find it justifiable even if it was close to term. It's sad that perhaps some in the left are too distracted by their opposition to conservative/right-wing Christians to give this issue the attention it deserves.

For me, it doesn't matter when life begins, I'd still treat it with respect. But the idea that some would take it close to term and still not even "feel" anything either way........is disgusting.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Nice try. . .

Except for one, all are the first of several steps in the internal process of development to the mature organism.
It's the same organism whether in its first step of the internal process or whether in its last step.
So, it's your view that a fertilized egg is a person (or a chicken) and an acorn is a tree?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I've never seen a fetal image on a beach or on a truck. Maybe it's a Catholic thing.
You should see that priest ride the waves, it's killer!

Actually, it's mostly protestant non-denominations that have the funds for such things out by us. Interestingly Catholics get the blame for much of it. :shrug:

Serious, you haven't seen the aborted infant images out in the streets? It just about ****** off libs when they see it.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Actually, it's mostly protestant non-denominations that have the funds for such things out by us. Interestingly Catholics get the blame for much of it. :shrug:
I guess the Catholics are spending too much money on anti-gay campaigns to worry about abortion right now. But the Catholic Church did spawn all those Protestants in the first place. :)

Serious, you haven't seen the aborted infant images out in the streets?
No. I've seen pictures of lunatics waving pictures around, but I've never seen it in real life. Certainly not on a beach or a truck.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You should see that priest ride the waves, it's killer!

Actually, it's mostly protestant non-denominations that have the funds for such things out by us. Interestingly Catholics get the blame for much of it. :shrug:

Many Catholic groups have the money for this stuff as well. Any all the anti-abortion groups I see picketing anywhere around here are Catholic.

Serious, you haven't seen the aborted infant images out in the streets? It just about ****** off libs when they see it.
The first time I saw people standing on a street corner with pictured of aborted fetuses, I was on my way to work.

It was about a week after one of my co-workers announced that she was pregnant. Realizing that she (carrying a 12-week-old fetus) was going to have to drive by a big poster of a dismembered fetus that said "12 weeks" on it, I very nearly stopped my car to punch the guy out. It's the only time I can think of in recent memory that I've had the urge to be violent.

For some people when life begins has little to do with the abortion debate. They would find it justifiable even if it was close to term. It's sad that perhaps some in the left are too distracted by their opposition to conservative/right-wing Christians to give this issue the attention it deserves.
OTOH, it works both ways. I think you'd find that many on the pro-choice side would be open to more restrictions for late-term abortions, but they're worried that conceding any ground will end up strengthening the anti-abortion camp and be used as a stepping stone to a full abortion ban.


For me, it doesn't matter when life begins, I'd still treat it with respect. But the idea that some would take it close to term and still not even "feel" anything either way........is disgusting.
For me, I think that many of the tactics of the so-called "pro-life" campaign show no respect for the life that they claim to consider sacred.

When I take that along with what I see as a tendency to stop caring about the welfare of fetuses after they're born, along with the deep, fundamental disrespect they show to women, I don't put much weight in the notion that the anti-abortion movement is about "respect".

IMO, more often than not, the "pro-life" movement is more about using the fetus as a political football to enforce ideas of sexual purity on people who don't want them. I'm not so sure it's really about fetal "life" at all.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
So, it's your view that a fertilized egg is a person (or a chicken) and an acorn is a tree?

They are the same organism as the human and the tree, respectively, in their first stage of development.

If that's a prized acorn from a very rare tree which you were fortunate enough to acquire for the center piece of your front yard, and you throw the acorn in the fire, there goes your prized tree.

And if a wife conceives, after being told repeatedly by doctors that she never would, and she destroys the zygote, there goes the person she so desperately wanted in her family.

Yep, that acorn is the tree. Destroy the acorn, and you destroy the tree.
Yep, that zygote is the person. Destroy the zygote, and you destroy the person.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And if a wife conceives, after being told repeatedly by doctors that she never would, and she destroys the zygote, there goes the person she so desperately wanted in her family.
Say that instead, she continued the pregnancy. Lo and behold, the zygote splits - she's going to have twins!

Where did the second person come from?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I guess the Catholics are spending too much money on anti-gay campaigns to worry about abortion right now.
Never seen one in my life. Must be out by you mostly.
No. I've seen pictures of lunatics waving pictures around, but I've never seen it in real life. Certainly not on a beach or a truck.
You see them almost every weekend in Cali beaches.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Never seen one in my life. Must be out by you mostly.]
The Knights of Columbus donated $1.15 million to ProtectMarriage.com and half a million to NOM in 2008, and $1.4 million to NOM in 2009.

The Diocese of Portland, despite closing parishes because of budget shortfalls, donated $568,000 to the campaign to make same-sex marriage illegal in Maine, and appealed to other dioceses for donations, resulting in donations of $50,000 each from the Dioceses of Philadelphia and Phoenix, and $10,000 each from the Dioceses of Newark, St. Louis, and Youngstown.

The Minnesota Catholic Conference has produced an anti-gay DVD and mailed a copy to every Catholic household in Minnesota.

They have no money to keep parishes open, but plenty of money to hate their neighbor, effectively demonstrating what the Church's real priorities are.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Many Catholic groups have the money for this stuff as well. Any all the anti-abortion groups I see picketing anywhere around here are Catholic.
Oh we aren't immune to such tactics. I'm was just speaking about my respective province.
The first time I saw people standing on a street corner with pictured of aborted fetuses, I was on my way to work.

It was about a week after one of my co-workers announced that she was pregnant. Realizing that she (carrying a 12-week-old fetus) was going to have to drive by a big poster of a dismembered fetus that said "12 weeks" on it, I very nearly stopped my car to punch the guy out. It's the only time I can think of in recent memory that I've had the urge to be violent.
I don't care for them. I'd rather just talk or pray for them.
OTOH, it works both ways. I think you'd find that many on the pro-choice side would be open to more restrictions for late-term abortions, but they're worried that conceding any ground will end up strengthening the anti-abortion camp and be used as a stepping stone to a full abortion ban
Is that what they are worried about? So they'd be ok with telling a women she can't with regard to late-term abortions? You can call them restrictions all you want but it may as well be a "no" for many women. How very interesting...
For me, I think that many of the tactics of the so-called "pro-life" campaign show no respect for the life that they claim to consider sacred.

When I take that along with what I see as a tendency to stop caring about the welfare of fetuses after they're born,
What are you talking about? Is this George Carlin comedy?
along with the deep, fundamental disrespect they show to women, I don't put much weight in the notion that the anti-abortion movement is about "respect".
I can't say we can completely relate.
IMO, more often than not, the "pro-life" movement is more about using the fetus as a political football to enforce ideas of sexual purity on people who don't want them. I'm not so sure it's really about fetal "life" at all.
In politics? I wouldn't argue that. I can only speak of how I feel. But politics goes both ways.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
The Knights of Columbus donated $1.15 million to ProtectMarriage.com and half a million to NOM in 2008, and $1.4 million to NOM in 2009.

The Diocese of Portland, despite closing parishes because of budget shortfalls, donated $568,000 to the campaign to make same-sex marriage illegal in Maine, and appealed to other dioceses for donations, resulting in donations of $50,000 each from the Dioceses of Philadelphia and Phoenix, and $10,000 each from the Dioceses of Newark, St. Louis, and Youngstown.

The Minnesota Catholic Conference has produced an anti-gay DVD and mailed a copy to every Catholic household in Minnesota.

They have no money to keep parishes open, but plenty of money to hate their neighbor, effectively demonstrating what the Church's real priorities are.
I'll tell you right now that I don't agree with that. It's a shame, it really is. A food kitchen would be well worth the money.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
My extension of the natural characteristics of all seeds as naturally applying to human seed seems to me to be much less an extension than that extension clearly stated in scripture.
But your claim is that this fact is demonstrated by scripture. If you have to extend what is written in scripture to reach your conclusion, however obvious or direct that extension may appear to you, is it still scriptural?

You and I have different premises. Mine is: the Bible is true.
More than that, your premise is that your personal interpretation of the Bible is true. The problem is that you're presenting a hypothesis that "The Bible says X" but have a premise that "The Bible says what I believe it says". It's a circular argument nobody who isn't in complete unerring agreement with you could break in to.

The chief characteristic of life is the ability to reproduce itself.
It is one of the biological characteristics used to define life but not the only one and that kind of definition doesn't really work applied to individual organisms alone. The biological definition of life is much more complex and less certain than that. It represents the complexity and uncertainly throughout which you are brushing over.

My premise does not allow for that conclusion.
Then maybe your premise is wrong.


Yes, it is possible that I am wrong on my extension of the principle.
That's really all I was looking for. Your early posts were so confidently certain that for all your challenges of refutation, you flatly refused (and, ironically, still do just above) to accept that any of the fundamental bases of your position could possibly be in any way imperfect.

Your argument presents a lot more questions that it does answers. The problem is that you're not (yet) willing to answer the key question we should all ask ourselves in this kind of situation - Am I sure?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Say that instead, she continued the pregnancy. Lo and behold, the zygote splits - she's going to have twins!

Where did the second person come from?

Another good question. . .

If the zygote (union of sperm and egg) splits, it dies.

It splits later because it was multiple persons to begin with.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Let's argue that life begins at kerception. It's a made-up version of human development that I can change at my whim under the guise of my equally incompetent theological interpretations of the Krible, which I also can change at any whim.
 
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