Life From Dirt?

[Heyo]

I looked at the section about the birds pecking. Michael Shermer calls their eventual hunt for the reward superstition. Why he calls it that is beyond me, perhaps you can explain it. I'm looking at a definition of superstition, it says: "a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief:"
I can't see how this is relegated to the birds in that pecking situation.

The birds have an unjustified belief that their dance influences the feeding machine and it leads to them repeating the behaviour.
It's just like humans wearing crystals or swallowing sugar pills that have been once in contact with a substance that has now been diluted out.

 

[Heyo]

In most investigations that I conduct, I'll have an arsenal of ghost-hunting equipment at my disposal (including but not limited to: the GS2 Laser Grid System, an SLS camera, a thermal imaging camera, a full-spectrum camera, phasm lights, REM pods, Flux 2 response devices, EMF meters, motion sensors, spike temperature sensors, touch-activated flashing balls, BooBuddy Ghost Hunting Interactive Talking Bear, a paranormal puck, a paranormal music box, EVP recorders, spirit boxes, and an obvilus).

At least some of those seem to be instruments able to measure real physical properties.
Do you see ghosts and ESP as natural phenomena that haven't been investigated enough by science and would have a scientific explanation eventually or do you think that the paranormal is forever inaccessible by science?

 

[YoursTrue]

Moses is a character in the creation myth, not an author.

You're telling me no one had direct input with God. How do you know that anyway?

 

[YoursTrue]

The birds have an unjustified belief that their dance influences the feeding machine and it leads to them repeating the behaviour.
It's just like humans wearing crystals or swallowing sugar pills that have been once in contact with a substance that has now been diluted out.

It wasn't superstition with the birds. You don't know that.

 

[YoursTrue]

The birds have an unjustified belief that their dance influences the feeding machine and it leads to them repeating the behaviour.
It's just like humans wearing crystals or swallowing sugar pills that have been once in contact with a substance that has now been diluted out.

Their ability to peck and try to figure isn't superstition.

 

[Heyo]

You're telling me no one had direct input with God. How do you know that anyway?

Polish up on your reading comprehension. I didn't tell you that no one had direct input from god, I'm telling you that no author of any scripture, that I know of, has claimed to have direct input from god.

 

[Heyo]

It wasn't superstition with the birds. You don't know that.

You are right, that was a shortened version that Shermer used and I copied. I should have said "the pigeons showed superstitious behaviour".

 

[YoursTrue]

The birds have an unjustified belief that their dance influences the feeding machine and it leads to them repeating the behaviour.
It's just like humans wearing crystals or swallowing sugar pills that have been once in contact with a substance that has now been diluted out.

Their ability to peck and try to figure isn't superstition.

You are right, that was a shortened version that Shermer used and I copied. I should have said "the pigeons showed superstitious behaviour".

Lol either way, the pigeon was hardly showing that it was superstitious.

 

[shunyadragon]

Where did scientists come up with the idea of life maybe starting 3+ billion years ago? Of course there's no proof of that, but I wonder how they 'know.' or guess.

I believe this has been explained to you before, but nonetheless. The earliest most primitive life is found in rocks ~3.5 billion years old formed in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. This is just after continental drift began and the ideal environment formed with the heat for energy, nutrients and consistent conditions for life. Before this the conditions for life were hostile to formation of the first life.

See the following thread for the new discoveries, research and more detailed description of the environment for the formation of the first life. Abiogenesis discoveries and research

 

[shunyadragon]

Moses had "direct input" in many senses with God. The Bible aptly says that no one can see God and live -- No human has literally seen God. That is confirmed at Exodus 33:20 that no one can see God's face and live. God was very close with Moses (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12) God told Moses, “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live."

There is no known Hebrew writings found at the time of Exodus to confirm the Biblical claim is accurate. The earliest writings are after ~600 BCE when the Hebrews had sufficient writing to compile the Pentateuch. If Moses existed there is no writings that even mention him at the time Exodus was described to have happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

Moses is a character in the creation myth, not an author.

True, given Moses did not write the Old Testament.
However, I believe that Moses was a real person, a Prophet/Messenger of God.

 

[Heyo]

True, given Moses did not write the Old Testament.
However, I believe that Moses was a real person, a Prophet/Messenger of God.

Given that the whole exodus story is made up, there is possibly not a shred of truth to Moses. Even Joshua may be more myth than legend. While there is Jericho, the destruction of the walls doesn't fit into the timeline. Afaik, David is the first character that has a basis in reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that the whole exodus story is made up, there is possibly not a shred of truth to Moses. Even Joshua may be more myth than legend. While there is Jericho, the destruction of the walls doesn't fit into the timeline. Afaik, David is the first character that has a basis in reality.

Well, maybe the stories about Moses as depicted in the Bible are not all true, but I believe what the Baha'i Writings say about Moses.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It wasn't superstition with the birds. You don't know that.

It depends upon how one defines superstition.

 

[Heyo]

It depends upon how one defines superstition.

I defined it as "unjustified belief". And by that, @YoursTrue is right, we don't know what the pigeons believe. We can only infer that from their behaviour.

Happy Birthday, btw.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I defined it as "unjustified belief". And by that, @YoursTrue is right, we don't know what the pigeons believe. We can only infer that from their behaviour.

Happy Birthday, btw.

Okay, we cannot be sure. I do agree with that. But it may be "close enough". This is not a terribly serious claim either way.

And thank you very much.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, we cannot be sure. I do agree with that. But it may be "close enough". This is not a terribly serious claim either way.

And thank you very much.

Happy birthday and I hope you had a good birthday.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Happy birthday and I hope you had a good birthday.

Thank you. Not bad.

 

[Brian2]

So your god is like some sort of deism where he sets the universe in motion with a basic design of a hydrogen atom, after which physics and chemistry simply take over from there, with everything that follows afterwards (stars, planets, galaxies, life,...) being the natural outcome of the interactions between matter, gravity etc?

So you accept natural origins of life, natural origins of stars, planets, atoms heavier then hydrogen (formed in stars and supernovae), evolution etc?

I would say that God needed to design and probably build the first of those life forms created.
Probably from there, with the right environments, the end product was probably set using evolution.
The universe could have fallen into place with the initial design and laws etc. But there is design in it imo.
The earth may have been a special case, for the development and survival of life.

Huh?
So shifting your claim once again?
You said he just made the chemistry that makes it possible (which would include genetics)
And now you shift again and say god came and MacGuyvered RNA / DNA?

It kind of feels like you are making it up on the spot whenever it suits you...

God made the chemistry so that DNA and RNA could form naturally probably but imo something that holds information and uses it the way it does needed to be designed and built and put in place.
I'm not making it up completely on the spot. I have thought about it.
It's a product of believing both the Bible and science and fitting them together.
Science always takes a beating in stuff like this because science has presuppositions that force it to go beyond what actually happened, and it has no way of knowing if what it says is correct or not.

Hilarious groundwork for a god-of-the-gaps argument.
Lemme guess... you believe god can fill those gaps until science comes up with an explanation (which doesn't include any gods)?

No explanation that does not include any gods can be trusted. It is all speculation based on the naturalistic presupposition when it comes to those things that God has said that He has done.
I also speculate because I don't know exactly how God did it.

Why would it need "some help"?
Isn't your all-knowing, all-powerful god knowledgeable and powerful enough to make a universe in which laws operate that can take care of all these things?

So how does this "help" work in your opinion?
He comes down and starts fiddling with atoms and molecules?
Why do you believe this? What evidence do you have to support such a wild claim?

Why is it a wild claim?
Isn't believing that the universe designed itself and that the laws of physics designed life a wild claim.

Because there is no evidence for it.

Yes that is the nature of science, it needs verifiable evidence. Humans can see and use the other evidence and have faith that there is a God. Science can just speculate on naturalistic answers and that is as far as science can go. It cannot detect spirit because spirit is not physical matter. Many skeptics limit themselves to this weakness of science and want to throw away what we have to go further, faith.
This faith is encouraged by the evidence all around us and even by what science discovers.
Both these videos are worth watching, especially the 2nd one.

Berry animations - Google Search

 

[Brian2]

Why is your religion afraid of science? The forum name is Evolution vs Creationism. If it is evolution, then how science can be avoided?
In that case the name of the forum should have been 'Evolution according to Religions and Creationism'.

Science is fine when it is not speculation about how nature did thing that God has said that He did.
Why do you think that science is 100% correct about these things when all science can do is look at chemistry and speculate about how nature did it?

But he had no problem if they did evil acts in their life-time?
What evidence do you have for your 'spiritual universe'? What is your evidence for inheritance of eternal life.
What is the brand name of the snake-oil that you are selling? Christianity?

Of course He has a problem when people do evil in their life-time.
Evidence for the existence of a creator and designer is so strong that it is amazing that people want to close their eyes to it.