Life From Dirt?

[TagliatelliMonster]

But prophecy in the Bible still supports the existence of God and the prophecy is still being fulfilled and nobody can do anything about that.

Even if I would bend over backwards and accept that there is accurate prophecy in the bible, that still wouldn't be evidence for a god at all.

It would only be evidence for the claim of prophecy.
Showing 1 thing accurate in the book doesn't mean everything in the book is accurate.

Claims fall and stand on their own merrit.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In a democracy someone is going to push their morality onto the people.

???

I live in a democracy. Nobody is pushing their "morality" onto me. I am completely free to do my own moral reasoning and have my own opinions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A good example in science, to show nobody is immune to this, are dark energy and dark matter. These two assumptions have never been seen in the lab to prove they are real.

You might want to read up what these things are. They are not the assumptions you like to pretend they are.

These are imagined to be responsible for bulk universe trends that are seen in astral physics data.

There's nothing being "imagined" there.
They are placeholder names for things they KNOW they are missing, since they can measure the effect these unknown things have on the universe.
In the case of dark matter for example, there is an excess gravity that is unaccounted for by visible matter / mass.
Science doesn't know where that gravity comes from. So they invented the label "dark matter" to refer to it.

There is bulk astral physics data, which the consensus can see that causes everyone to accept a conclusion, about something that nobody has seen in the lab. I could just as well attribute that astral physics data to leprechauns and fairies, since they too have never been seen in the lab and could be used to fill in the conceptual placeholder.

Indeed you could. But off course that would be kind of misleading since leprechauns and fairies are labels that have a lot of baggage.
The term "dark matter" was chosen because matter with mass is the only known source of gravity. So that label seemed appropriate.

But yes, it's just a placeholder name for an as of yet unknown source of gravity.

 

[shunyadragon]

In a democracy someone is going to push their morality onto the people.
I do not completely agree with wanting to force people to comply with the morality of conservative Christians in the USA however.
I can't speak to how it might be there however as I am in Australia.

Spoken like a true believer in QAnon.

 

[shunyadragon]

The problem is current evolutionary theory starts its story at replicators. The replicators somehow poof into existence, without the theory offering any mechanism that can prove this poof. There is a problem with the foundation. If we ignore, the hows and whys of the poof, and assume we can just start at the poof, the theory correlates fine. But how did the poof, that is needed, happen, so the ducks can align in a row? Did the theory reverse engineer; 19th century macro world, and get stuck at the 20th century, micro poof?

Here is an interesting research summary article that covers the research of the replication from non-living inorganic to replication of living organic life forms.

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/1873-3468.14507

Abiogenesis through gradual evolution of autocatalysis into template-based replication​

Polina Pavlinova, Camille N. Lambert, Christophe Malaterre, Philippe Nghe
First published: 06 October 2022

https://doi.org/10.1002/1873-3468.14507
Polina Pavlinova and Camille N. Lambert are joint first authors
Edited by Claus M. Azzalin

Abstract​

How life emerged from inanimate matter is one of the most intriguing questions posed to modern science. Central to this research are experimental attempts to build systems capable of Darwinian evolution. RNA catalysts (ribozymes) are a promising avenue, in line with the RNA world hypothesis whereby RNA pre-dated DNA and proteins. Since evolution in living organisms relies on template-based replication, the identification of a ribozyme capable of replicating itself (an RNA self-replicase) has been a major objective. However, no self-replicase has been identified to date. Alternatively, autocatalytic systems involving multiple RNA species capable of ligation and recombination may enable self-reproduction. However, it remains unclear how evolution could emerge in autocatalytic systems. In this review, we examine how experimentally feasible RNA reactions catalysed by ribozymes could implement the evolutionary properties of variation, heredity and reproduction, and ultimately allow for Darwinian evolution. We propose a gradual path for the emergence of evolution, initially supported by autocatalytic systems leading to the later appearance of RNA replicases.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Even if I would bend over backwards and accept that there is accurate prophecy in the bible, that still wouldn't be evidence for a god at all.

It would only be evidence for the claim of prophecy.
Showing 1 thing accurate in the book doesn't mean everything in the book is accurate.

Claims fall and stand on their own merrit.

One of my tests for someone's ability to be honest about prophecy is the Tyre Prophecy. A prophecy so bad that the prophet himself admitted that it failed and then went on to make more failed prophecies. It was specifically against the King of Tyre and the people of that time. The earliest claims were that Tyre was not the island. That the island was "New Tyre". Yet the island was always the source of wealth to the area. It was not the surrounding areas that are called "settlements" in the Bible. It is clear from context that it was the island as well. The reason that they came up with "New Tyre" is because the "settlements" were easily attacked and overcome. But the rulers had all retreated to the island. That was the standard defense at that time. The island was never attacked and destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and Ezekiel admitted so at the end. He then said that Nebby would attack and destroy Egypt. That did not happen either.

It has to be the worst failed prophecy in all of the Bible. Why it is still there is a bit of a mystery. It was very well written, I will grant that.

 

[Valjean]

The philosophy of one man.
Historical events confirmed by witnesses.

Events said to be confirmed by witnesses. Stories passed through thousands of mouths and eventually written down. You don't think they might just be legends? You don"t think they might have been embellished, and finally edited to fit a preferred religious narrative?ææ
There are books claiming witnesses to orcs, sasquatches and færie's, too. How is Biblical hearsay any more authoritative than these?

The evidence for God is obvious but still rejected by many imo

Yet no actual objective evidence has ever been produced, and the ten or twelve common arguments for God are factually or logically flawed. If there were obvious evidence, why is God not generally accepted?

Weren't you confirming just the other day that the evidence for God is purely subjective, ie: perceived only by you?

The evidence for Jesus is prophesied historic events confirmed by witness and all many people can do is say it is BS and that they won't believe unless they see Jesus for themselves and put their fingers in His nail wounds and put their hand in His spear wound.

So where are the eyewitnesses, or are the confirmations just hearsay?
Anyone can write a story claiming events that were witnessed by various characters. Most religions do. Surely you can see that without objective, confirmatory evidence it would be irrational to believe every written legend?

 

[Bthoth]

Joshua was told to build an altar on Mt Ebal and to read the curses and blessings of the Law to the Israelites.
There is an altar there and I think possibly another under that one.
If the curse tablet is true then both the altar and the tablet are evidence for the truth of the exodus and conquest and show very early writing, a long time before 1000BC.

Sure cursed cursed cursed.............. idolatry for a temple has become a curse.

The Hebrews came to Egypt with a language and as shepherds. The Egyptians were not fond of shepherds and so I imagine the Hebrews would have kept their own language while there even though they no doubt would also have learnt Egyptian.

Hebrew did not exist back then.

Moses was probably educated in the Egyptian Royal palace but was brought up also by his mother and would have known the Hebrew language that they used.

as an infant?

Abraham had come from Mesopotamia and moved to Canaan. He and his family would have known the language of Canaan and Mesopotamia.

aramaic is the initial semitic language of northern Levant.

Languages evolve. I don't see the problem.

I am well aware that languages are man made and do evolve. Even if come people do not grow up with knowledge to move beyond beliefs and religious opinion

I don't know what ma'at has to do with Moses and the Law of Moses.

Look up the commandments compared to the book of ma'at.

Arkenatan lived after Moses but his monotheism may have been influenced by the Hebrews and their God.

Look up the time periods, they directly over lap.

Yes circumcision and clean and unclean animals seem to have been around in religion before the Law of Moses.

The commandments are the law enabled by moses. The other additions are not by moses.

God told Abraham to be circumcised and to circumcise those in his household. This was before Egypt.

Funny stuff as there is zero evidence of abraham or circumcision before egypt. If anything, abraham could be egyptian, if you want to use the culture as your premise.

That practice probably was passed down to the descendants of Abraham in Egypt and Moses could have been circumcised.

Read torah.... No circumcision of moses.

But we know that Moses did not circumcise his son and that was a problem with God in the early Exodus story.
Are you saying that circumcision and kosher laws etc in the Law of Moses came from Egypt?

They are recorded in egypt before torah or moses even existed, no matter which dates you wish to use.

 

[Bthoth]

You keep repeating this dubious claim of 2 cm by 2 cm scrap of lead, not stones, containing unintelligible glyphs.

I did not repeat anything about that location.

I asked why it was brought up when discussing moses and the commandments.

It is justified that the experts all reject it. Your grasping at straws to justify your agenda.

What agenda? I was discussing moses and the commandments.

Take a look at the pictures they do not remotely resemble hebrew or Proto-Canaanite

I just looked up the location because HE brought it up and saw the item speaking of CURSE, Cursed, cursed.

It reminded me of Ezek 22, expressing god of the prophets, is to melt israel for oppression and idolatry..... which fits exactly what is happening over the city of blood.

 

[shunyadragon]

I did not repeat anything about that location.

I asked why it was brought up when discussing moses and the commandments.

What agenda? I was discussing moses and the commandments.

I just looked up the location because HE brought it up and saw the item speaking of CURSE, Cursed, cursed.

It reminded me of Ezek 22, expressing god of the prophets, is to melt israel for oppression and idolatry..... which fits exactly what is happening over the city of blood.

Sorry, I believe I was responding to @Brian2 There was a mix up as to who was responding and quoting the post by @Brian2

 

[Bthoth]

Sorry, I believe I was responding to @Brian2 There was a mix up as to who was responding and quoting the post by @Brian2

I was wondering if you had me mixed up with another.

Thank you shunyadragon.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure cursed cursed cursed.............. idolatry for a temple has become a curse.

Hebrew did not exist back then.

as an infant?


aramaic is the initial semitic language of northern Levant.

I am well aware that languages are man made and do evolve. Even if come people do not grow up with knowledge to move beyond beliefs and religious opinion


Look up the commandments compared to the book of ma'at.

Look up the time periods, they directly over lap.

The commandments are the law enabled by moses. The other additions are not by moses.

Funny stuff as there is zero evidence of abraham or circumcision before egypt. If anything, abraham could be egyptian, if you want to use the culture as your premise.

Read torah.... No circumcision of moses.


They are recorded in egypt before torah or moses even existed, no matter which dates you wish to use.

I believe the roots of the Ten Commandments and Hebrew law of Moses is mostly adapted from the Code of Hammurabi during the exile. There of course is likely Egyptian influence. Thou such codes are common to all ancient cultures in one way or another. Claiming a Divine origin is common to give the codes authority, Hammurabi made the same claim as his code was given to him by the Babylonian God.

Interesting coincidence between cultures, Abraham and A Brahman.

 

[Bthoth]

I believe the roots of the Ten Commandments and Hebrew law of Moses is mostly adapted from the Code of Hammurabi during the exile.

The code of hammurabi, great works but Moses did not grow up there and he is claimed to put the 10 to stone.

There of course is likely Egyptian influence. Thou such codes are common to all ancient cultures in one way or another. Claiming a Divine origin is common to give the codes authority, Hammurabi made the same claim as his code was given to him by the Babylonian God.

Solid rendition...... I measured about the same long time ago

Interesting coincidence between cultures, Abraham and A Brahman.

Funny aint it. And eventually the book of life, will have each given their due respect and contributions.

I trust mankind will fulfill

 

[shunyadragon]

The code of hammurabi, great works but Moses did not grow up there and he is claimed to put the 10 to stone.

Unfortunately the Pentateuch was composed after ~600 BCE from various sources some for Proto-Canaanite Sources including the knowledge and influence of the Hebrews in exile. Moses and Exodus is more mythical than real like most of the stories in the Pentateuch containing some facts in history, but the narratives are not historically accurate,, and the Hebrew written language did not exist before at best 1000 BCE.

Egyptian, Canaanite, Ugarit, and Phoenician sources are the best we can do to know the history of the Levant at the time of Moses and Joshua. Some of the events in Moses and Joshua correspond to the known records and archaeology, but by and large no,

 

[Bthoth]

Unfortunately the Pentateuch was composed after ~600 BCE from various sources some for Proto-Canaanite Sources including the knowledge and influence of the Hebrews in exile.

Exactly.

Moses and Exodus is more mythical than real like most of the stories in the Pentateuch containing some facts in history, but the narratives are not historically accurate,and the Hebrew written language did not exist before at best 1000 BCE.

But what is clear, is during the period that moses was claimed to live, the levant was egypts new kingdom

Egyptian, Canaanite, Ugarit, and Phoenician sources are the best we can do to know the history of the Levant at the time of Moses and Joshua. Some of the events in Moses and Joshua correspond to the known records and archaeology, but by and large no,

I noted that what ahkenatan did, schism from thebes, wandered the desert (opened up amarna) just shy of the reed sea, put words to stone (amarna tablets using akkadian), monotheism and controlled the levant (New kingdom/crescent valley-promised land) kind of reflected Moses.

 

[shunyadragon]

Exactly.

But what is clear, is during the period that moses was claimed to live, the levant was egypts new kingdom

I noted that what ahkenatan did, schism from thebes, wandered the desert (opened up amarna) just shy of the reed sea, put words to stone (amarna tablets using akkadian), monotheism and controlled the levant (New kingdom/crescent valley-promised land) kind of reflected Moses.

. . . kind of reflected Moses? Not adequate. The origin of the Laws of Moses from the Babylonian exile is fairly well documented.

 

[Bthoth]

. . . kind of reflected Moses? Not adequate. The origin of the Laws of Moses from the Babylonian exile is fairly well documented.

In both cases, people created the rules, not a god.

The code covered both commerce and the public requirements. The commandments are specifically about personal responsibility.

What is inadequate is how the rules are applied and claimed to be applicable.

the commandments are as universal now as then. the code is a bit evolved .....now a days.

 

[shunyadragon]

Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.

I was born in 1946 and grew up on a farm. My mother accused me of springing from dirt.

 

[Brian2]

How did you choose this particular one?

I believed the gospel story.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, it's complex and intricate, but these don't equal intentional design or divine magic. The mechanisms behind the myriad steps of cellular evolution are natural and understood, and require no conscious or magical design.
Before concluding that a thing is impossible without magic, it's a good idea to review the explanations and evidence underlying alternative explanations.

Of course it all works with known mechanisms and forces etc but that is not the same as saying that it could design and build itself.

Argument from incredulity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's an argument from incredulity. Well no, it is just incredulity that it designed and made itself.
There is no answer to the question except speculation and basically there are 2 possible answers, God designed it or it designed and made itself.
We seem to choose different answers and both choices seem to be from incredulity.
Maybe you choose neither and your answer is "I don't know" and you are just criticising me for having a view one way or the other.