like the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses but the denial of blood I think is so strange

[Hockeycowboy]

@Meandflower ,

“Life Saving Blood Transfusion?”
by Bill K. Underwood, AP


“When we cut our finger, we see blood as a simple red liquid. It was perhaps that view that prompted doctors centuries ago to believe that blood that leaked out of one patient could simply be replaced by blood from another patient.

Such is not the belief of doctors today. There is a growing school of thought among the best doctors today that transfusing blood is as fraught with complications as transplanting organs.

What doctors in the 1700's couldn't have known is that blood is a complex mix of red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, plasma, and a myriad other small constituents. Likely you've heard blood being referred to as "type A," "type B, or "type O." These distinctions refer to antigens in the blood, and so far researchers have discovered 29 different "types." The antigens essentially make each person's blood unique; they do not play well with others. Mismatched blood was the reason for the death of nearly all early tranfusion patients. Even with all the technology available today, it is estimated that about one in 12,000 units of blood transfused in the United States is given to the wrong person.

Your body creates red blood cells at the astonishing rate of 2 million to 3 million per second! That's an amazing little factoid, but it makes you think: if your bone marrow is creating 2 million cells per second, it is doing so because 2 million blood cells are dying per second. Since a unit of blood, stored, waiting to be transfused, is about one tenth of a person's whole blood supply, that means that one tenth of that figure, about 200,000 red blood cells, are dying each second. If blood is stored for just one hour, that's 72,000,000 dead cells. I'm not feeling real great about 72,000,000 dead anything being pumped into my body. What's the number of dead cells after a day? A week? How long before they begin to putrify?

White blood cells come in many varieties. Some of them live for a year, but some die every 36 hours. So a unit of stored blood has millions of dead white cells in it also. Other blood constituents, such as antibodies and hormones, also begin to break down and die in stored blood.

In the normal course of things, these broken down and decaying blood constituents are filtered out by your liver and kidneys, and passed out of your body in your feces and urine. When a unit of blood is drawn from someone, some of this pre-feces-pre-urine material was on it's way to the donor's kidneys and liver, and got sidetracked into the IV needle, to be stored for someone's transfusion. If you're like me, you may be struggling to come to grips with how you would feel about having this quart of rotting material routed into your arteries. I think the word you're looking for is "eeeew."


But there's more. While blood is rushing around in your bloodstream, the motion generates a chemical called nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is vital to your blood's ability to carry oxygen. It helps dilate your smallest blood vessels to allow blood to squeeze through. If blood can't get to the smallest passageways, it can't offload it's oxygen. And transporting oxygen to your cells is kind of the whole point of transfusing blood.


However, when blood is removed from a donor and sits still in a storage bag, it no longer generates nitric oxide, and it immediately begins losing whatever nitric oxide it contains. Some tests indicate that stored blood has lost most of it's nitric oxide - hence most of it's oxygen-carrying capacity - within three hours of being removed from a donor. Three hours!


For these and other reasons, many doctors are taking a long, hard look at blood transfusions. Several studies have shown that patients that are treated without blood transfusions have shorter stays in the hospital, and fewer post-operative problems.

For example, it was reported this week that Dr Jimmy Chow of St. Luke's Medical Center in Phoenix has developed a micro-invasive hip replacement procedure. Hip replacement is typically a bloody operation, but Chow claims that with his method the patient loses no more than 200 cc's - about 6 ounces - of blood.


Next time you read a story that uses the expression "life saving blood transfusion," you might want to forward this article to the writer of that story.”

—END—

 

[Dogknox20]

Wow, somehow I missed this thread, Meandflower! I only found it a couple days ago.

Appreciate the kind words about us (JW’sj.

Let me start by saying, no rational doctor will guarantee a blood transfusion will save a person’s life.
The only way a person can guarantee their life, is by being faithful / obedient to God. See Revelation 2:10.

That said, Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29 tells us (Christians) to “abstain...from blood.” Nothing specifically about ‘only eating’ it is prohibited.

If a (hypothetical) doctor tells an alcoholic to “abstain from alcohol,” is it ok if this same (hypothetical) alcoholic injects alcohol through a needle?

Some statistics:
https://www.uchealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/CLNLAB-2018-05-18-Risks-of-Blood-Transfusion.pdf

But it’s not about the risks, or the health issue, with us... it’s about obedience.

Next, I’m going to post a fact-based op ed piece.

.
Hockeycowboy good to meet you...
I must point out.... JW parents refused blood transfusion for there child on religious grounds!
I ask; did the Watch Tower come forward stoppping them from denying the blood transfusion? NO! In otherwords.. "The Parents were sacraficing their child in God' name"! As if God wants child sacrfice!

The scriptures point to Jesus being God the Jw' reject what Christians have always taught! Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!
Jehovah's Witnesses originated as a branch of the Bible Student movement, which developed in the United States in the 1870s among followers of Christian restorationist minister Charles Taze Russell.

Satan also rejects Jesus is God!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We’ve spoken before. Hope you’re well.

Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

No, they didn’t in the first century.
They viewed Jesus as the Messiah, but never God. Only as Jehovah God’s Servant. Read their prayer at Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30.

To state anything more, is going beyond the Truth. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Exodus 20:1-5.) And the words of Jesus himself. - John 17:3

Most of Christendom have supported the world’s wars, ignoring Christ-like love and killed their brothers....which only brings into question not only their actions, but everything else, including their beliefs.
It would be in your interest to leave such a hypocritical organization...
2 Corinthians 6:17-18, Aramaic Bible in plain English..
17“Because of this, come out from among them and be separated from them, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, and you shall not touch the impure thing, and I shall receive you,”
18“And I shall be a Father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, The Almighty.”




I wish you wisdom & good health, my cousin.

 

[Dogknox20]

We’ve spoken before. Hope you’re well.
No, they didn’t in the first century.
They viewed Jesus as the Messiah, but never God. Only as Jehovah God’s Servant. Read their prayer at Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30.

To state anything more, is going beyond the Truth. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Exodus 20:1-5.) And the words of Jesus himself. - John 17:3

Most of Christendom have supported the world’s wars, ignoring Christ-like love and killed their brothers....which only brings into question not only their actions, but everything else, including their beliefs.
It would be in your interest to leave such a hypocritical organization...
2 Corinthians 6:17-18, Aramaic Bible in plain English..
17“Because of this, come out from among them and be separated from them, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, and you shall not touch the impure thing, and I shall receive you,”
18“And I shall be a Father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, The Almighty.”

I wish you wisdom & good health, my cousin.

.
Hello once again... "Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus IS God!"
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Hockeycowboy do you see it? "God became flesh & lived among us!"

I must point out.. Christians have always believed in (1) one God not many! The JWs believe in many.. They added the letter "A" to John 1:1 so it will read "The word was A god"!
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Hockeycowboy The scriptures were around for over 1700 years before the Watchtower added or subtracted from them!
I say it again... Christians have always believed in (1) one God not many!

Christians have always believed Jesus is God..Thomas is a Christian he is an Apostle!
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Hockeycowboy do you see verse 29 (above) Jesus is telling you "You are NOT blessed"! The JW is not blessed they reject what Christians have always believed... Satan also rejects Jesus is God!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Yes, “No one has ever seen God”! (People saw Jesus, did they not?)

Plus, the Word (Jesus) was “with” God. Therefore, Jesus can’t be God. Unfortunately, phrases in one language may not be grammatically correct in another....such is the nature, and danger, of translating. That’s where context comes in. Context reveals facts, and facts cannot be altered.

So, how can we properly understand John 1:1c?

One of your own leaders, Roman Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., also a highly acclaimed scholar, wrote in his “Dictionary of the Bible” regarding John 1:1:
“Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’ ” (1965, NY), p. 317. — Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.
(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine.)

I certainly appreciate his honesty!

Is his rendering “a divine being” (or even saying “a god”) consistent with rules of Greek grammar? Professor Emeritus of Religion at Heidelberg College Philip B. Harder, in his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” wrote that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’ ” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering “the Word was God,” at Jn.1:1, do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17, they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Because of these and other facts, various translators have rendered John 1:1 as....

▪ 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

▪ 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

▪ 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

▪ 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

▪ 1864: "the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God" – A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)

▪ 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)

▪ 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible

▪ 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)

▪ 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

▪ 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)

▪ 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago

▪ 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

▪ 1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation[15]

▪ 1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958)

▪ 1966, 2001: "...and he was the same as God" – The Good News Bible

▪ 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible

▪ 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

▪ 1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

▪ 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin

Some use the term "divine." Trinitarian Moffatt's highly acclaimed New Translation of the Bible and trinitarian Smith-Goodspeed's An American Translation both say that the Word "was divine." The translations by Boehmer, Stage, and Menge all say the Word was "of divine being."

Note that many of these versions were before JW’s.

 

[rational experiences]

Blood.

Self owned. A hu man says blood is holy and owned don't give it away.

Hence if someone reads Jesus bled then why would you agree to take blood because of a teaching about sacrificed life?

You would quote it wrong.

Now if Jesus is a healer medical life genetic warning and then a medical review about blood is stated you only did the study inferring why a human refuses a blood transfusion.

Yet the medical profession who we trusted said humans needed it in particular circumstances.

Taking medical blood in the past was also considered as wine. As wine was used in medicine. Yet wine changes your conscious holy mind. Another reasoned why not to I am just a human review.

As humans are humans equal.as just humans first. And healer advice was once medical advice in our past.

 

[Dogknox20]

Yes, “No one has ever seen God”! (People saw Jesus, did they not?)

Plus, the Word (Jesus) was “with” God. Therefore, Jesus can’t be God. Unfortunately, phrases in one language may not be grammatically correct in another....such is the nature, and danger, of translating. That’s where context comes in. Context reveals facts, and facts cannot be altered.

So, how can we properly understand John 1:1c?

One of your own leaders, Roman Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., also a highly acclaimed scholar, wrote in his “Dictionary of the Bible” regarding John 1:1:
“Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’ ” (1965, NY), p. 317. — Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.
(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine.)

I certainly appreciate his honesty!

Is his rendering “a divine being” (or even saying “a god”) consistent with rules of Greek grammar? Professor Emeritus of Religion at Heidelberg College Philip B. Harder, in his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” wrote that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’ ” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering “the Word was God,” at Jn.1:1, do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17, they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Because of these and other facts, various translators have rendered John 1:1 as....

▪ 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

▪ 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

▪ 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

▪ 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

▪ 1864: "the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God" – A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)

▪ 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)
▪ 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
▪ 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979) ▪ 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
▪ 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)
▪ 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
▪ 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.
▪ 1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation[15]
▪ 1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958)▪ 1966, 2001: "...and he was the same as God" – The Good News Bible
▪ 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible
▪ 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen,Germany
▪ 1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
▪ 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin
Some use the term "divine." Trinitarian Moffatt's highly acclaimed New Translation of the Bible and trinitarian Smith-Goodspeed's An American Translation both say that the Word "was divine." The translations by Boehmer, Stage, and Menge all say the Word was "of divine being."
Note that many of these versions were before JW’s.

.
Hockeycowboy and the word was a divine being.’ ” Roman Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., tells you>>>Jesus was God! a divine being
NOT... "A" god but .... GOD!
Three persons ONE God!

Thomas a CHRISTIAN tells you Jesus is his God! Jesus tells Thomas.. Christians in the future are blessed because they believe the same as Thomas!
Hockeycowboy Jesus is telling you.. "You are NOT blessed you are rejecting what Thomas the Apostle believes" You reject what Christians have always believed!!

The "Word (God) became flesh and lived among man! "God" Jesus" lived among us!

Scripture is very clear... This prophesy points directly at you...
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

Hockeycowboy Arius WAS a Christian, he was "AMONG Christians until he rejected the Christian teaching of "Jesus is God"! Arius was removed as a False Teacher! This prophesy cannot work in the reverse Christians were NOT (Among) Arius! Verse 2 (above) proves the Christian Church is "The Way Of Truth"! Verse 2 proves your Anti-Christian church is NOT the way of truth! You MUST reject this scripture to remain in your belief!
The Anti-Christ rejects what Christian believe! The JW and the Watch Tower reject the cross! The Cross is a Christian symbol.... You see a cross or someone making the sign you know instantly it/they are Christian! Satan would never ever put a cross on any of his churches! IT...

Hockeycowboy it was by the cross that Satan was defeated Death was destroyed and Life was restored from the cross! Satan is Anti-Christ he rejects what Christian have always taught.. Jesus is God!

 

[kjw47]

I like the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses but the refute of blood I think is so strange. The Jehovas witnesses is correct about Jesus. But the Blood refute troubles me very much..
People can die if Blood transfusion is refuted. It is not morally right to refute blood to children if they can survive with blood transfusion..

If Blood transfusion was ok according to Jehovas witnesses then the Jehovas witnesses had been the closest to God. The most correct Christian sect..

Any thoughts?

The NT states--abstain from blood. In the Ot blood of the sacrafices was poured on the ground.
Many taking blood transfusions contacted-aids hep c--and so on. And many still die taking it.
We know this isnt the life to live for. Entrance into Gods kingdom where life lasts forever is the real life.

 

[Dogknox20]

The NT states--abstain from blood. In the Ot blood of the sacrafices was poured on the ground.
Many taking blood transfusions contacted-aids hep c--and so on. And many still die taking it.
We know this isnt the life to live for. Entrance into Gods kingdom where life lasts forever is the real life.

.
kjw47 It's good to meet you.. Right off .. Christians have always believed "Jesus is God"! I must point out.. JW parents refused blood transfusions for their children! Like you they claimed it was in the bible.... "They sacrificed their children in the name of God"! Christians reject Child Sacrifice.. God rejects Child Sacrifice!
This is in the bible also... Why do you reject this (Below John 20) but accept this...Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

John 20 is Jesus talking...
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

kjw47 Jesus is telling you; Christians are blessed and you are NOT! Thomas is a Christian, he is an Apostle, he believes Jesus is God!

 

[TiggerII]

.
kjw47 It's good to meet you.. Right off .. Christians have always believed "Jesus is God"! I must point out.. JW parents refused blood transfusions for their children! Like you they claimed it was in the bible.... "They sacrificed their children in the name of God"! Christians reject Child Sacrifice.. God rejects Child Sacrifice!
This is in the bible also... Why do you reject this (Below John 20) but accept this...Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

John 20 is Jesus talking...
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

kjw47 Jesus is telling you; Christians are blessed and you are NOT! Thomas is a Christian, he is an Apostle, he believes Jesus is God!

..................................................
How do we know that Thomas' exclamation is a praise directed to God the Father?

Thomas had said (verse :25) that unless something happened he would “not believe.” What was it that Thomas refused to believe? Was it that he refused to believe that Jesus was equally God with the Father? There is certainly no hint of this before or after Thomas’ statement at John 20:28.

If the disciples had learned, upon seeing the resurrected Jesus, that he was God, certainly they would have indicated this! But notice, neither before nor after receiving Holy Spirit :22) did they kneel or do any act of worship such as one would certainly do upon becoming aware of being in the presence of God!

Notice that the disciples who had seen Jesus earlier did not tell Thomas that Jesus was God :25)! This is an incredible oversight if they had really believed they had seen God! Certainly, if they had discovered that Jesus was really God when they saw him resurrected, they would have talked of nothing else!

If, on the other hand, they had already known that Jesus was God even before seeing his resurrected form, then Thomas, too, would have already known about it and certainly would not have meant: “Unless I see ... the print of nails [etc.] ... I will not believe [Jesus is God].”

No, the context of John 20:24, 25, and 29 shows that Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. (See footnote for John 20:8 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985: “John did not say what [the disciple who saw the empty tomb of Jesus] believed, but it must have been that Jesus was resurrected.” - Also see Barclay’s The Daily Study Bible Series: The Gospel of John, Revised Edition, Vol. 2, p. 267, and pp. 275, 276.)

Certainly, being resurrected from the dead does not make you God. Other persons in the Scriptures had been resurrected from the dead before (and after) Jesus, and no one, for a moment, ever suspected them of being God! In fact, being resurrected from the dead would have been used as evidence that a person was not God, since God has always been immortal and cannot die in the first place!

Furthermore, Jesus’ statements before and after Thomas’ exclamation (“my Lord and my God!”) show not only that Jesus wanted Thomas to believe that he had been resurrected to life but that he could not possibly be God!!

Jesus’ command to Thomas to literally touch his wounds and actually see his hands proves that he meant, “See, I am the same man you saw die, but now I am alive ... be believing that I have been resurrected to life” (not, “see, these wounds prove I am God ... be believing that I am God”).

Notice that the reason given for Thomas to “be believing” is that he can see Jesus’ hands and their wounds. Likewise, after Thomas says “My Lord and my God,” Jesus reaffirms that Thomas now believes (as did the other disciples after seeing - Jn.20:20) that Jesus has been resurrected (not that he is God) “because you have seen me” :29).

Certainly Jesus wouldn’t mean, “you believe I am God because you can see me.” Instead, this is proof that Jesus, Thomas, John, and the other disciples did not believe Jesus was equally God with the Father! How? Because John himself has made it manifestly clear that “no one [no human] has ever seen God” - 1 John 4:12, RSV. (See the SF study; also OMN 3-5.)

“For the NT God is utterly invisible (Jn. 6:46; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; Col. 1:15). ‘God does not become visible; He is revealed,’ ... yet the resurrection narratives especially stress that the risen Christ is visible.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 518, Vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

Therefore, since no man has ever directly seen God (who is the Father only - John 5:37, 6:46; 17:1, 3) but men have only indirectly “seen” God through representations such as visions, dreams, etc., Jesus is saying: “Believe I have been resurrected and that I am obviously not God because you see me directly (and even touch me so you can be sure I’m not a vision or an indirect representation).”

What about the rest of the context? (1) As noted before, Thomas did not bow down, worship, etc. upon learning that it was really Jesus and saying 'my lord and my god.' He could not have just discovered that he was in the presence of God and acted the way he did! (2) It’s also obvious that Jesus did not understand Thomas to be calling him equally God with the Father in heaven. But did John, in spite of the incredible contradiction of a previous statement (like 1 John 4:12 above) at John 1:18 that “no man hath seen God at any time,” somehow think that Thomas understood Jesus to be God?

Well, no other disciple of Jesus ever made a statement to him which could honestly be construed as meaning Jesus is God! So, (3) if John had, somehow, understood Thomas’ statement that way, he certainly would have provided some follow-up clarification and emphasis in his own comments.
Surely John would have shown Thomas prostrating himself before “God” and worshiping him (but he doesn’t!). So how does John summarize this incident? - “But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5)

Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:

“This whole Gospel [John] is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”

Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!

Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

 

[setarcos]

Is it possible that the most correct Christian sect is Atheism?
(I know, I opened Pandora’s box here)

Because they may be the only sect to have NO false concepts of God.

So...if they have no false concepts of God then what true concepts of God do they have?

 

[Dogknox20]

..................................................
How do we know that Thomas' exclamation is a praise directed to God the Father?

Thomas had said (verse :25) that unless something happened he would “not believe.” What was it that Thomas refused to believe? Was it that he refused to believe that Jesus was equally God with the Father? There is certainly no hint of this before or after Thomas’ statement at John 20:28.

If the disciples had learned, upon seeing the resurrected Jesus, that he was God, certainly they would have indicated this! But notice, neither before nor after receiving Holy Spirit :22) did they kneel or do any act of worship such as one would certainly do upon becoming aware of being in the presence of God!

Notice that the disciples who had seen Jesus earlier did not tell Thomas that Jesus was God :25)! This is an incredible oversight if they had really believed they had seen God! Certainly, if they had discovered that Jesus was really God when they saw him resurrected, they would have talked of nothing else!

If, on the other hand, they had already known that Jesus was God even before seeing his resurrected form, then Thomas, too, would have already known about it and certainly would not have meant: “Unless I see ... the print of nails [etc.] ... I will not believe [Jesus is God].”

No, the context of John 20:24, 25, and 29 shows that Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. (See footnote for John 20:8 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985: “John did not say what [the disciple who saw the empty tomb of Jesus] believed, but it must have been that Jesus was resurrected.” - Also see Barclay’s The Daily Study Bible Series: The Gospel of John, Revised Edition, Vol. 2, p. 267, and pp. 275, 276.)

Certainly, being resurrected from the dead does not make you God. Other persons in the Scriptures had been resurrected from the dead before (and after) Jesus, and no one, for a moment, ever suspected them of being God! In fact, being resurrected from the dead would have been used as evidence that a person was not God, since God has always been immortal and cannot die in the first place!

Furthermore, Jesus’ statements before and after Thomas’ exclamation (“my Lord and my God!”) show not only that Jesus wanted Thomas to believe that he had been resurrected to life but that he could not possibly be God!!

Jesus’ command to Thomas to literally touch his wounds and actually see his hands proves that he meant, “See, I am the same man you saw die, but now I am alive ... be believing that I have been resurrected to life” (not, “see, these wounds prove I am God ... be believing that I am God”).

Notice that the reason given for Thomas to “be believing” is that he can see Jesus’ hands and their wounds. Likewise, after Thomas says “My Lord and my God,” Jesus reaffirms that Thomas now believes (as did the other disciples after seeing - Jn.20:20) that Jesus has been resurrected (not that he is God) “because you have seen me” :29).

Certainly Jesus wouldn’t mean, “you believe I am God because you can see me.” Instead, this is proof that Jesus, Thomas, John, and the other disciples did not believe Jesus was equally God with the Father! How? Because John himself has made it manifestly clear that “no one [no human] has ever seen God” - 1 John 4:12, RSV. (See the SF study; also OMN 3-5.)

“For the NT God is utterly invisible (Jn. 6:46; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; Col. 1:15). ‘God does not become visible; He is revealed,’ ... yet the resurrection narratives especially stress that the risen Christ is visible.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 518, Vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

Therefore, since no man has ever directly seen God (who is the Father only - John 5:37, 6:46; 17:1, 3) but men have only indirectly “seen” God through representations such as visions, dreams, etc., Jesus is saying: “Believe I have been resurrected and that I am obviously not God because you see me directly (and even touch me so you can be sure I’m not a vision or an indirect representation).”

What about the rest of the context? (1) As noted before, Thomas did not bow down, worship, etc. upon learning that it was really Jesus and saying 'my lord and my god.' He could not have just discovered that he was in the presence of God and acted the way he did! (2) It’s also obvious that Jesus did not understand Thomas to be calling him equally God with the Father in heaven. But did John, in spite of the incredible contradiction of a previous statement (like 1 John 4:12 above) at John 1:18 that “no man hath seen God at any time,” somehow think that Thomas understood Jesus to be God?

Well, no other disciple of Jesus ever made a statement to him which could honestly be construed as meaning Jesus is God! So, (3) if John had, somehow, understood Thomas’ statement that way, he certainly would have provided some follow-up clarification and emphasis in his own comments.
Surely John would have shown Thomas prostrating himself before “God” and worshiping him (but he doesn’t!). So how does John summarize this incident? - “But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5)

Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:

“This whole Gospel [John] is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”

Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!

Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

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tigger2 It's all very nice...
You say your convoluted "Cut and Paste!" is proof; fact is it is reading into scriptures what is NOT written there!
FACT: Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God! Thomas a CHRISTIAN tells you "Jesus is his God"! Jesus is God come down from heaven he is a MAN he has seen God!
The scriptures tell you they worship Jesus and Jesus does NOT stop the worship!
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

tigger2 Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed..... Jesus is Lord & God!
tigger2 Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God! Word for Word..... “My Lord and my God!”
All peoples who reject Jesus MUST reject the scriptures as lies from the mouth of God! Again... Word for Word..... “My Lord and my God!”

God became flesh and lived among us! The JW believes in MANY God' Christians reject many God' Christians reject the Watch Tower! Christians believe in ONE God; Jesus is that one God! The Father is that ONE God and the Holy Spirit is that ONE God! .. One God three persons!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
tigger2 the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "A god" tells you there are MORE THEN ONE! You say Jesus is Not God then you say Jesus is "A god"! MORE THEN ONE "A god"!

John 1: 2 He (The Word) was with God in the beginning.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him (The WORD)nothing was made that has been made.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[Dogknox20]

The JW' say "Jesus is NOT God"! Their bible the "New World" says; Jesus is "a god"; One of many gods!

Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!
Christians have ALWAYS believed in One God!
Christians teach Jesus the word was a divine being. Just as the scriptures say.. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is God incarnate; Jesus is the Man/God! God became part of his own creation!

 

[Dogknox20]

Blood.

Self owned. A hu man says blood is holy and owned don't give it away.

Hence if someone reads Jesus bled then why would you agree to take blood because of a teaching about sacrificed life?

You would quote it wrong.

Now if Jesus is a healer medical life genetic warning and then a medical review about blood is stated you only did the study inferring why a human refuses a blood transfusion.

Yet the medical profession who we trusted said humans needed it in particular circumstances.

Taking medical blood in the past was also considered as wine. As wine was used in medicine. Yet wine changes your conscious holy mind. Another reasoned why not to I am just a human review.

As humans are humans equal.as just humans first. And healer advice was once medical advice in our past.

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rational experiences "Blood" represents life! People noticed as the blood of an animal drained away the life of the animal drained away! Jesus gave his life to us as a gift of perfect love, his blood poured out of him as he died on the cross! At the Last Supper he took wine gave it to his Apostles saying "Drink my blood"! He took bread saying eat this is my body! He died so we would not have to die, he took our place in death! Now what we have to do is get ourselves united with the risen Jesus! IF....

rational experiences if you are immersed into the risen body of Jesus you also will rise NO....

rational experiences no one can die twice, no one can die two times; Jesus has been there and done that, never to be repeated, Jesus lives eternally!

 

[rational experiences]

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rational experiences "Blood" represents life! People noticed as the blood of an animal drained away the life of the animal drained away! Jesus gave his life to us as a gift of perfect love, his blood poured out of him as he died on the cross! At the Last Supper he took wine gave it to his Apostles saying "Drink my blood"! He took bread saying eat this is my body! He died so we would not have to die, he took our place in death! Now what we have to do is get ourselves united with the risen Jesus! IF....

rational experiences if you are immersed into the risen body of Jesus you also will rise NO....

rational experiences no one can die twice, no one can die two times; Jesus has been there and done that, never to be repeated, Jesus lives eternally!

Every hour man is just a human.

Blood leaking out of a human body is blood. Science medical healer says so.

Doing a rewritten old testimonials life genesis sacrificed water taken atmospherically.

Blood loss due to circumstances loss water extra radiation causes gases burning. Heavens spirit exists first not radiation satanists.

Was to re write a new read thesis attack advice after.

Attack occurred our eternal human life removed taken into heavens. Water mass for biological determined teaching only......We no longer live it. We all die human life.

You can't talk about man dying stigmata sacrificed unnaturally by body bleeding until it occurs. Is witnessed and identified.

Kinda like Ebola causes. Men of science caused its inheritance. As we already lived healthily and died. Dying unnaturally was a cause.

So it is not a living human day by day theory it was experienced.

Wine was afterwards. Medical healer used therapy. And in fact irradiated ground water could no longer be drunk. Humans supplemented water with wine.

Not only did it allow life continuance....medically radiation burnt treatments was easier. Being drunk was a used medical healer application of old.

As DNA medical advice psychic aware was read to detail remedies for victims.

B read AB lettered worded read attack defined. Healing then inferred advice about how to treat changed humans DNA sickness. Documents a healer.

B read was reading DNA damage. What remedy could the healer apply.

Why building church is bible stated as resonant healing versus demon strata irradiation attack was real. It kept life safe.

So they structured holy sanctuaries in cities for human healing. Humans used ground stones to also try to stabilise the attacks.

We lived endured it as family victims.

Humanity is first science a humans theories is the destroyer.

 

[Dogknox20]

rational experiences It's all very good but.... Man was created by God, of all of the animals created ONLY man can say thankyou! Only man can commune with God! It's clear you are searching, ,you will never rest until you rest in God!

 

[rational experiences]

rational experiences It's all very good but.... Man was created by God, of all of the animals created ONLY man can say thankyou! Only man can commune with God! It's clear you are searching, ,you will never rest until you rest in God!

God in science terms is only a theory.

By a man. Notice man owned a fixed place no reaction...water oxygenated by trees in garden.

All nature by billions forms exists in a water atmosphere.

Then it oxygenated it for animal life and human.

The God men seek was never in created creation.

Men compared the fact God O mass eternal.bodies sounds left eternal.

When gods earth...notate earths heavens ONLY created by the planet STONE ..clear is it yet.....existed so spirit was by vibration changed in the eternal and came out. Notate also not as the large eternal beings that live exist in the eternal.

Their life is not biology.

We never owned god in creations fallen angels O that burst burnt by sound and mass. Hell story. Most of them gone.

Why each body is a variable. By mass OOo and O sound created variables.

I never searched. I got told. I tested what I was taught and it sure is lacking it's own advice. No man is God.

Notice Rome updated the advice after it was attacked. Notice Rome never believed old testimonials itself.

The Baha'i did not use science status satanisms in their teachings in full awareness why.

As the church was not built as a healing building a long time after the event...it is proof you included the advice knowing how a brain mind depletes it's owned wisdom in a radiating atmosphere.

The building built as you witnessed how sick everyone was and even stated the resonance in the building kept the life cell safe.

Hence as Phi was stopped of its sink hole attack it kept life safe by review and not by any other notification.

 

[Dogknox20]

God in science terms is only a theory.

By a man. Notice man owned a fixed place no reaction...water oxygenated by trees in garden.

All nature by billions forms exists in a water atmosphere.

Then it oxygenated it for animal life and human.

The God men seek was never in created creation.

Men compared the fact God O mass eternal.bodies sounds left eternal.

When gods earth...notate earths heavens ONLY created by the planet STONE ..clear is it yet.....existed so spirit was by vibration changed in the eternal and came out. Notate also not as the large eternal beings that live exist in the eternal.

Their life is not biology.

We never owned god in creations fallen angels O that burst burnt by sound and mass. Hell story. Most of them gone.

Why each body is a variable. By mass OOo and O sound created variables.

I never searched. I got told. I tested what I was taught and it sure is lacking it's own advice. No man is God.

Notice Rome updated the advice after it was attacked. Notice Rome never believed old testimonials itself.

The Baha'i did not use science status satanisms in their teachings in full awareness why.

As the church was not built as a healing building a long time after the event...it is proof you included the advice knowing how a brain mind depletes it's owned wisdom in a radiating atmosphere.

The building built as you witnessed how sick everyone was and even stated the resonance in the building kept the life cell safe.

Hence as Phi was stopped of its sink hole attack it kept life safe by review and not by any other notification.

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rational experiences Science cannot measure God or religion. Science measures the material; Religion is Spiritual!
The Church is NOT a building it is a Body of believers it is the Body of God!

The Baha'i >>> Religion<<< has roots to Islam! Islam is not a friendly >> Religion<< it preaches "An eye for an eye and a Tooth for a tooth"! It beheads woman it cuts off the hand!

 

[rational experiences]

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rational experiences Science cannot measure God or religion. Science measures the material; Religion is Spiritual!
The Church is NOT a building it is a Body of believers it is the Body of God!

The Baha'i >>> Religion<<< has roots to Islam! Islam is not a friendly >> Religion<< it preaches "An eye for an eye and a Tooth for a tooth"! It beheads woman it cuts off the hand!

Any religion owns historic man's choice to own apply temple pyramid built science.

Hypocrites meaning. You first built by man's science theisms science buildings to house machines.

The alienation...of nations.

UFO radiation fallout. Returned space cooled accumulated mass.

Cooled ultimately by space and pressure equals answer to metal beginnings in gods earths seams. Sewn.

You learnt.

So science practice knew Jerusalem Jeru to turn circuit Salem peace was needed in the technology practicing.

Baha'i knew by Roman bible study English version maths data that it was evil.

So they preached against re established maths want of rebuilding technology. Which is associated to orders of the day fighting for human rights.

Why secular groups existed.

The church as a resonant building was by design on Phi. Life cell health existed on Phi cooling stopping sink holes. The church hence represented humans keeping cell life health.

As it had been sacrificed in sink hole gain.

So they taught the church building meant life. By a human assessment.

So men. You have to be a human to be human consciousness to do assessments to preach

Humans said all preaching science was false preaching hypocrites.

Once you never owned a pulpit.

Assessments evaluated put into the biblical documentation knew what a theist destroyer man human was as a coercer of information.

Particular notifications supports the fact of evidence was witnessed assessed by men of spirituality by orders.

Father said in human life radiated by metal life attack is a memory human life cut unnaturally.

Once no human hurt our family were not violent used no weapons did not kill animals...once.

Use of weaponry and changed conscious nature came from life's nation UFO attack. Fallout causes.

 

[Dogknox20]

Any religion owns historic man's choice to own apply temple pyramid built science.

Hypocrites meaning. You first built by man's science theisms science buildings to house machines.

The alienation...of nations.

UFO radiation fallout. Returned space cooled accumulated mass.

Cooled ultimately by space and pressure equals answer to metal beginnings in gods earths seams. Sewn.

You learnt.

So science practice knew Jerusalem Jeru to turn circuit Salem peace was needed in the technology practicing.

Baha'i knew by Roman bible study English version maths data that it was evil.

So they preached against re established maths want of rebuilding technology. Which is associated to orders of the day fighting for human rights.

Why secular groups existed.

The church as a resonant building was by design on Phi. Life cell health existed on Phi cooling stopping sink holes. The church hence represented humans keeping cell life health.

As it had been sacrificed in sink hole gain.

So they taught the church building meant life. By a human assessment.

So men. You have to be a human to be human consciousness to do assessments to preach

Humans said all preaching science was false preaching hypocrites.

Once you never owned a pulpit.

Assessments evaluated put into the biblical documentation knew what a theist destroyer man human was as a coercer of information.

Particular notifications supports the fact of evidence was witnessed assessed by men of spirituality by orders.

Father said in human life radiated by metal life attack is a memory human life cut unnaturally.

Once no human hurt our family were not violent used no weapons did not kill animals...once.

Use of weaponry and changed conscious nature came from life's nation UFO attack. Fallout causes.

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rational experiences Jesus is God! Jesus established his Church before he ascended back up to heaven; he left men in charge with the authority of God to care for his Holy Body.. His Church!