Little confused...Are Jews allowed to drink alcohol or is it a sin?

[MyM]

If you mean the actual letters using in ancient Jewish writings. There are Jewish sources that state that when Hashem showed Mosheh ben-Amram what to transcribe it was in the below format.

View attachment 61153
View attachment 61155

Some of the Dead Sea which are more than about 2,200 years old are similar to the above script.

There are others sources that state that there were scrolls that were also made in a script more like the below used by the Samaritans.

View attachment 61154

Some texts from the Dead Sea are also similar to the above.

If you mean what is the oldest surviving Hebrew Torah texts that would be the Dead Sea. They are about 2,300 to 2,300 years old. There are other more complete Hebrew texts of the Torah that are about 1,000 years old. Prior to that there fragments and pieces of once complete texts.

How do they know that that is the complete Torah? If they were found, why can't others be found? Just curious. Since things are all put together, just wondering that things can be missing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So you do have the dowry part of the marriage that the man gives it to the women?

In the past, depending on the community, it was given to the woman, in part, and in part to her family. In some cases it wasn't money and it could be something of value. Like a ring or jewelry. Now a days a lot of people use the ring as the thing of value. I.e. the man would pay for the rings.

3 ways to be married. That's Interesting-never knew that. So if they consummated the "sex" part of it, they are pronounced married automatically or considered just fornicated?

The three methods mentioned were ruled to be an entire process at a certain point. Two of them is from the Torah and the third is from a ruling from an Mosaic court. Thus, a Jewish wedding could take about a month to go through the process and celebrate the future union. During that time when the contract and the price was paid the woman is considered the man's wife. The whole thing was completed and formalized when they are physically together or even alone together. Thus, the entire process would end with the bride being brought to the husband's house and them being alone together in said place. When they came out together, then it was a completely closed deal.

In ancient times, most Jews were married young. So, there was less of an issue since between 13 to 19 is when marriages took place. In the case, where a Jewish man has had relations with a women, back then a young girl, who was available/unmarried but was not his wife in order for anything to be considered on him it would have had to been a situation where he found doing so and had been warned beforehand. In such a situation where the woman was still living with her parents, then the man would have to pay her father's family.

In those times, it would have been extremely rare for a women to live alone with no family. Yet, if such a situation did happen and only the two of them knew about, in some form, he would considered to be married to her just not in the proper way. If they were living together, it would further be understand that that was his wife but that they had no contract together. Thus, if the divorced there would be issues is there was contract.

In modern times, the entire process normally takes place the night of the wedding. The formal part ending when the husband and wife go off to private room together. When they leave the room together the whole process is considered sealed and normally the celebrations of the wedding continue.

Ok, so if a man and woman commit fornication, what does that mean? What happens to one who commits adultery?

In ancient times, see the above. If a situation happened where a young girl who was living at home was found mutually with a boy/man that she was not married to they would be given the opportunity to marry officially. If the boy, man, etc. agreed and she agreed then an official wedding would held. If either of the girl or the boy/man did not want to marry then the boy/man would have to pay a price to the father of the girl.

 

[MyM]

In the past, depending on the community, it was given to the woman, in part, and in part to her family. In some cases it wasn't money and it could be something of value. Like a ring or jewelry. Now a days a lot of people use the ring as the thing of value. I.e. the man would pay for the rings.



The three methods mentioned were ruled to be an entire process at a certain point. Two of them is from the Torah and the third is from a ruling from an Mosaic court. Thus, a Jewish wedding could take about a month to go through the process and celebrate the future union. During that time when the contract and the price was paid the woman is considered the man's wife. The whole thing was completed and formalized when they are physically together or even alone together. Thus, the entire process would end with the bride being brought to the husband's house and them being alone together in said place. When they came out together, then it was a completely closed deal.

In ancient times, most Jews were married young. So, there was less of an issue since between 13 to 19 is when marriages took place. In the case, where a Jewish man has had relations with a women, back then a young girl, who was available/unmarried but was not his wife in order for anything to be considered on him it would have had to been a situation where he found doing so and had been warned beforehand. In such a situation where the woman was still living with her parents, then the man would have to pay her father's family.

In those times, it would have been extremely rare for a women to live alone with no family. Yet, if such a situation did happen and only the two of them knew about, in some form, he would considered to be married to her just not in the proper way. If they were living together, it would further be understand that that was his wife but that they had no contract together. Thus, if the divorced there would be issues is there was contract.

In modern times, the entire process normally takes place the night of the wedding. The formal part ending when the husband and wife go off to private room together. When they leave the room together the whole process is considered sealed and normally the celebrations of the wedding continue.



In ancient times, see the above. If a situation happened where a young girl who was living at home was found mutually with a boy/man that she was not married to they would be given the opportunity to marry officially. If the boy, man, etc. agreed and she agreed then an official wedding would held. If either of the girl or the boy/man did not want to marry then the boy/man would have to pay a price to the father of the girl.

Does it still happen now? Where the guy has to pay the father for them committing fornication? Isn't it against the law of Judaism? It is in Islam. You mentioned they would still be married but not in the proper way...what does that mean? Does it happen nowadays or are things just overlooked?

(Sorry for so many questions. I finally found someone who can answer them for me lol)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How do they know that that is the complete Torah?

Several ways,

1. There are three groups of people today who claim descent from the ancient Israelis who received the Torah at Mount Sinai. These three groups are:
   • Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews
   • Karaite Jews
   • Samaritans/Shomronim
2. All three groups have some major conflicts that are hundreds to about 2,500 years old YET:
   • All three groups agree on the structure of the Torah.
   • All three groups agree on how the Torah was received at Mount Sinai.
   • And all three groups agree that the Torah that exits today was what Mosheh received from Hashem.
3. Accounts, from more than 2,500 years ago, attest to what the content was of the text that Mosheh ben-Amram transcribed from Hashem, and those descriptions match what exists today.

This video may also help.

If they were found, why can't others be found?

A Torah scroll which is made on what is called (גוויל) Gewil. A Gewil Torah scroll can normally last for about 2,000 years. Because Gewil is animal skin it normally starts to break down over time. There is a certain point where a Torah text cannot be used officially in a community setting, like in a synagogue. When this happens they are buried respectfully so the breakdown process takes place on its own.

Also, Israel has been invaded and conquered numerous times. Historically speaking, destroying Torah scrolls was a pretty common thing during the Greek, Roman, and Byzantine times. A more recent example happened in Iraq. saddam hussein, for example, had many Jewish texts (Torahs, community) and property taken from the Jewish community. When he was desposed most of the documents were sent to the Jews who were formally from Iraq to whom documents belonged.

Here in Israel, and abroad older and older Torah scrolls are being found that match the Torah that exists in all Jewish communities now.

This may help with the above.

Who owns the Jewish treasures that were hidden in Saddam Hussein's basement?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is polygamy allowed in Judaism?

In a Torah sense it could still be done. YET, it is not allowed due to the law in most countries that Jews live in, including Israel.

There was also a ruling from a rabbi in Europe who outlawed it in his local and it caught on in Israel. There were Jews from some parts of the Middle East who can here and had more than one wife. So no. Now a days Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews only marry one wife.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Does it still happen now? Where the guy has to pay the father for them committing fornication?

No. Because currently here in Israel the law of the state of Israel not Torah based. Many elements are based on the British system of law. Thus, there would be legal way to hold someone to that.

Isn't it against the law of Judaism? It is in Islam.

Fornication is not "against the law" in the way that you guys have it in Islam. Meaning, I wouldn't personally state it in a completely different way. A better way we would put it is, "It is permissible/honorable for a young Jewish boy and girl to marry and start a Torah based family together." There was a saying among the Jews of Yemen that stated, "If you want to see great-grand children......get married young."

In the Torah sense the idea is to promote, by way of example, the best outcome from marrying the right person early and starting a family. The rabbis in the past were often seeking more ways to try draw Jews back to the table on an issue like this, except in the most extreme cases.

You mentioned they would still be married but not in the proper way...what does that mean? Does it happen nowadays or are things just overlooked?

Now a days, we Jews are still exile. Even those of us living in Israel. The exile was not only that we were exiled to foreign lands but also that there are a large number of Jews world-wide who don't keep the Torah or have been convinced that other cultures are superior. There are a number of prophets who spoke of a time like this thus...

If you go back to what I posted as the proper method it is like saying from the eyes of Hashem the two are doing what married people are doing. So, on one hand they are saying, "I am married to this person." Yet, they are evading or choosing to not do what Hashem gave. No different than a person driiving a car down the wrong lane. They are driving a car - just incorrectly.

(Sorry for so many questions. I finally found someone who can answer them for me lol)

No problem. Will have to log off soon since it is Purim here in Israel.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

ok, I have another question

How come the women were not allowed to read or write or study the books(said in video above so they made their own "songs" but that isn't the religion)? In Islam, women are no different than men when acquiring knowledge. Practicing it as well. So was wondering why women were not allowed?....

Some of that was the translation of the information into English. After the exile, in some lands it became common for Jewish women to not be educated because beyond the local language that was spoken, the Jewish venacular, some varying degress of Hebrew, and how to manage the household that was the common practice of the host society.

Further, in Jewish law a Jewish man has a requirement to study Torah and Halakha at a self imposed fixed amount everyday. A Jewish woman does not have this requirement. Also, after the exile most Jewish women would not have had the time to have taken on such a task.

YET, there are numerous situations of Jewish woman who did learn or where taught. You have to remember that some of these videos are very "general" in nature. They are also specific to certain Jewish communities during the exiles when Jews were just barely surviving.

Even under the most difficult situations Jewish woman are requireed to know all of the mitzvoth that are required from everyone.

sorry which brings me to another "movie" Yentl (with Barbara Streisand) She pretended to be a boy to enter into studying. Just wondering why it is like that.

Given that that is a movie I would take their depictions with a grain of salt.

 

[MyM]

In a Torah sense it could still be done. YET, it is not allowed due to the law in most countries that Jews live in, including Israel.

There was also a ruling from a rabbi in Europe who outlawed it in his local and it caught on in Israel. There were Jews from some parts of the Middle East who can here and had more than one wife. So no. Now a days Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews only marry one wife.

But if Allah allowed, why are they not abiding by it? I agree, the governmental societies nowadays do not allow, but what gives the man the right to say no?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But if Allah allowed, why are they not abiding by it? I agree, the governmental societies nowadays do not allow, but what gives the man the right to say no?

We have a concept in Torath Mosheh that we are required to follow the laws of the society we are found in if they don't contradict us doing mitzvoth that are requirements. For Torath Mosheh Jews it is not a requirement for a man to marry more than one wife, it is an option, thus if the society says it is illegal we accept it and move on with what we are required to do.

What gives a man right to say no to something is the power of the law of the host society and the jurisdiction of said location. For example, in America there are people called Soveirgen citizens. Their idea is that the current American system of law doesn't apply to them. The following example is a court case where a judge said it best, see at about 4:59 what the judge says about his ability to prove a certian jurisdiction over a person living in a particular state.

 

[MyM]

Some of that was the translation of the information into English. After the exile, in some lands it became common for Jewish women to not be educated because beyond the local language that was spoken, the Jewish venacular, some varying degress of Hebrew, and how to manage the household that was the common practice of the host society.

Further, in Jewish law a Jewish man has a requirement to study Torah and Halakha at a self imposed fixed amount everyday. A Jewish woman does not have this requirement. Also, after the exile most Jewish women would not have had the time to have taken on such a task.

YET, there are numerous situations of Jewish woman who did learn or where taught. You have to remember that some of these videos are very "general" in nature. They are also specific to certain Jewish communities during the exiles when Jews were just barely surviving.

Even under the most difficult situations Jewish woman are requireed to know all of the mitzvoth that are required from everyone.



Given that that is a movie I would take their depictions with a grain of salt.

ok, will not take it authentic-wise...it just struck me in an odd sense of "is this truth or not" kinda way. But why didn't they want them to learn? Just because they were housewives or women? Girls are not always married so they did not learn? Common place refers to what? In Islam, women are to be educated and taught and some of the women like A'isha gave over 2000 ahadith alone. Just weird that they were not in the past considered even worthy of being taught? (just tryin to learn )

 

[MyM]

We have a concept in Torath Mosheh that we are required to follow the laws of the society we are found in if they don't contradict us doing mitzvoth that are requirements. For Torath Mosheh Jews it is not a requirement for a man to marry more than one wife, it is an option, thus if the society says it is illegal we accept it and move on with what we are required to do.

What gives a man right to say no to something is the power of the law of the host society and the jurisdiction of said location. For example, in America there are people called Soveirgen citizens. Their idea is that the current American system of law doesn't apply to them. The following example is a court case where a judge said it best, see at about 4:59 what the judge says about his ability to prove a certian jurisdiction over a person living in a particular state.

Oh I was talking about the religion, not the government. I understand that it isn't mandatory. But why do some Jews say no because of govts? Do man made laws override Allah's laws in Judaism?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

ok, will not take it authentic-wise...it just struck me in an odd sense of "is this truth or not" kinda way. But why didn't they want them to learn? Just because they were housewives or women? Girls are not always married so they did not learn? Common place refers to what? In Islam, women are to be educated and taught and some of the women like A'isha gave over 2000 ahadith alone. Just weird that they were not in the past considered even worthy of being taught? (just tryin to learn )

It was not a matter "not wanting" them to learn. That was just the environment of most women in said host society. The Jewish community has in the exile been subject to a number of the situations present in a host society. Think of it like this. You have heard of what France intituted about so called "religious" clothing and such right? That is example of people being subject to the norms of the host society.

Girls are not always married so they did not learn? Common place refers to what?

The time frame that the videos are talking about was one where there was no such thing as a Jewish girl who did not get married. That was literally unheard of back then.

In Islam, women are to be educated and taught and some of the women like A'isha gave over 2000 ahadith alone. Just weird that they were not in the past considered even worthy of being taught? (just tryin to learn )

If memory serves there are places in the Islamic world where women were not allowed by certain regimes to be educated. This was once the situaiton in Yemen. I know that at some points in Afgan history this was the case. There were also Christian countries that at one point did not educate the populace. We Jews are subject to those same cultural norms are laws when they are place in host countries.

 

[MyM]

It was not a matter "not wanting" them to learn. That was just the environment of most women in said host society. The Jewish community has in the exile been subject to a number of the situations present in a host society. Think of it like this. You have heard of what France intituted about so called "religious" clothing and such right? That is example of people being subject to the norms of the host society.

The time frame that the videos are talking about was one where there was no such thing as a Jewish girl who did not get married. That was literally unheard of back then.



If memory serves there are places in the Islamic world where women were not allowed by certain regimes to be educated. This was once the situaiton in Yemen. I know that at some points in Afgan history this was the case. There were also Christian countries that at one point did not educate the populace. We Jews are subject to those same cultural norms are laws when they are place in host countries.

ok fair enough...but in Islam, the religion overrides the govts. only if they refuse you to not pray etc. But if the govt or society is saying no, that isn't the religion, it's the people. I guess what I am saying, is that there are people in the world who take advantage of people and their religion. But for the religion itself, did Allah say not to educate women or was that the choice of men in Judaism?

 

[rosends]

"But for the religion itself, did Allah say not to educate women or was that the choice of men in Judaism?"

And that's an example of a false binary which leads to a strawman argument.

Education in Judaism is centered around our obligation to act as Jews. Women had to know those laws and ideas which drove their behaviors as Jews -- same as men. In some areas, women are expected to be more educated than men. In other areas, less so.

If you are asking about the historical truth that women did not get formalized textual education about other aspects of Judaism that went beyond their particular role, then that was a function of cultural shaping and an extension of the differences in obligations and expected roles in the family and community.

 

[MyM]

"But for the religion itself, did Allah say not to educate women or was that the choice of men in Judaism?"

And that's an example of a false binary which leads to a strawman argument.

Education in Judaism is centered around our obligation to act as Jews. Women had to know those laws and ideas which drove their behaviors as Jews -- same as men. In some areas, women are expected to be more educated than men. In other areas, less so.

If you are asking about the historical truth that women did not get formalized textual education about other aspects of Judaism that went beyond their particular role, then that was a function of cultural shaping and an extension of the differences in obligations and expected roles in the family and community.

I was genuinely asking a question to him thank you.

 

[rosends]

I was genuinely asking a question to him thank you.

and I was genuinely pointing out the rhetorical flaw in your presentation and presenting information to address your question.

You're welcome.

 

[MyM]

and I was genuinely pointing out the rhetorical flaw in your presentation and presenting information to address your question.

You're welcome.

I may have flaws, but I have been learning and if you don't agree with my questioning, you don't have to answer. But I like my dialogue and am sincere in my approaches. I am not arguing I am discussing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But why do some Jews say no because of govts? Do man made laws override Allah's laws in Judaism?

Let's take an example. We are on RF. Can those who manage this site decide on a whim to dictate how disucssions take place and also what is accetable content? If so, would all members be in a position to either abide by RF's, in order to remain on the site, or to leave the site?

A similar thing, but worse, often happens to Jews in host countries, with a few exceptions. Again, in a situation where the mitzvah is an option it is possible to not do it. If it is a requirement then it is has to be done irregardless unless unless there is a risk to someone's life, again with some exceptions.

 

[MyM]

Let's take an example. We are on RF. Can those who manage this site decide on a whim to dictate how disucssions take place and also what is accetable content? If so, would all members be in a position to either abide by RF's, in order to remain on the site, or to leave the site?

A similar thing, but worse, often happens to Jews in host countries, with a few exceptions. Again, in a situation where the mitzvah is an option it is possible to not do it. If it is a requirement then it is has to be done irregardless unless unless there is a risk to someone's life, again with some exceptions.

Oh I agree one cannot control govts. You must abide by rules. But freedom of religion should be for everyone and it is sad it isn't in some countries. So, any country is considered a "host" country where a Jew lives?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

ok fair enough...but in Islam, the religion overrides the govts. only if they refuse you to not pray etc. But if the govt or society is saying no, that isn't the religion, it's the people. I guess what I am saying, is that there are people in the world who take advantage of people and their religion. But for the religion itself, did Allah say not to educate women or was that the choice of men in Judaism?

You have to understand that the Torah is not a religion, not in the sense you are speaking of. We Jews are in exile. We are also not a majority in any country or in the world. We have been in survival mode for more than about 2,600 years and there have number periods in that time where the attitude of some of the citizens in a host country has been, "Got a problem? Something not working out a certain way? Next step, blame the Jews."

As a Muslim, you have a concept of how you deal with the non-Islamic world that is foreign to us Jews - which is fine...I guess. You also have more countries that are Islamic centered than we have countries that are Torah based. Currently, we Jews don't have any country that is Torah based, as a country. At least not right now.