Logic vs Belief

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, greetings!

The Baha'i Faith, for one, explicitly endorses both logic and belief. Indeed, the harmony of science and religion is one of our basic teachings!:
In the Baha'i view science and religion are NOT in contradiction, but rather dovetail very nicely!

Science may be said to explain the "how" of things, whereas religion explains "Who" and "why." They thus address different, largely non-overlapping domains, but come together nicely to form a complete whole!

The quickest way to get into trouble is to use either one without the other!: Science without religion is gross materialism (bigger and better nukes); religion without science is superstition (witch-burning).

And the Baha'i scriptures also say (sorry: I don't have the citation handy) that if a religious doctrine disagrees with established science, then that doctrine is simply wrong.

There is also this marvelous quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha in the Baha’i scriptures:

“[E]ven in Europe it is admitted that religion is the opponent of science, and that science is the destroyer of the foundations of religion. While the religion of God is the promoter of truth, the founder of science and knowledge, it is full of goodwill for learned men; it is the civilizer of mankind, the discoverer of the secrets of nature, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world. Consequently, how can it be said to oppose knowledge? God forbid! Nay, for God, knowledge is the most glorious gift of man and the most noble of human perfections. To oppose knowledge is ignorant, and he who detests knowledge and science is not a man, but rather an animal without intelligence. For knowledge is light, life, felicity, perfection, beauty and the means of approaching the Threshold of Unity. It is the honor and glory of the world of humanity, and the greatest bounty of God. Knowledge is identical with guidance, and ignorance is real error.

“Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties of pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose hearts are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, who have fallen into the lowest depths of ignorance and foolishness, and who have wasted their lives!”
—(Some Answered Questions, page 137)

I hope this helps clarify the point.
Best,
Bruce

 

[LuisDantas]

That is fair enough Luis. We do not agree.

I am using the correct definitions for truth, science and religion.

Nope, you're just wrong. Sorry.

You have no monopoly on being stubborn, you know... and I happen to value what I say a fair lot, as well.

It is you who have a confused understanding of what they are. Why would anyone want to accept a religion without knowing it is true?

Because truth is in a different category altogether from hope and virtue, certainly.

Do you seriously think people become Christians without accepting Jesus is true?

That often happens out of social pressure, but is quite besides the point. Christianism is not simply accepting Jesus as the true god (I assume that's what you mean), it is learning to behave according to Christian doctrine. And if at all possible, contributing to it.

Or become Muslim without accepting Allah is true?

The same principle applies here.

Or accept Buddhism without accepting "Buddhahood"?

One does not "accept Buddhahood". Buddhism is not that esoteric. One simply takes a few vows and tries to live up to them.

Everybody thinks their religion is true Nobody joins a religion if they think it is possibly false.

Sorry to be blunt, but that's a rather poor way of thinking about religion.

 

[Surya Deva]

I think you should ask Christians and Muslims on RF Luis whether they accept Jesus and Allah as true I think you may have to reevaluate your beliefs my dear friend

 

[LuisDantas]

Don't worry, Suraj. I know I don't

 

[4troof]

For example, certain Christian people insisting on the earth being 6000 years old, despite scientific evidence to the contrary - .

The evidence of the earth being approx 6000 years old matches the flood theory perfectly. Our so called great scientists of the world would look at the aftermath of Mt St Helens and describe the chaos being millions of years old.

 

[Ben Masada]

Don't worry, Suraj. I know I don't

Dantas, how can one be Atheist, Agnostic and Buddhist? I am having some difficulty
assimilating them.

Ben

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm Atheist because I very much doubt there is any god.

I'm Agnostic because I don't think it is really possible to settle the matter once and for all.

I'm Buddhist because I took refuge in the Dhamma, the Buddha and the Sangha. And because I find religion far too important to be left aside due to such a small detail as nonbelief.

Then again, I assume your definition of religion is as different from mine as Suraj's. Perhaps moreso even.

In my mind religion is about concrete choices and acts, while atheism is no more than a statement of style, of perspective. And Agnosticism, well, Agnosticism is the only intelectually honest stance anyone can have when if comes to god's existence. But it in no way substitutes, forces or impedes either theism or atheism. I don't know if it is possible to be a "pure" agnostic.

 

[Ben Masada]

I'm Atheist because I very much doubt there is any god.

I'm Agnostic because I don't think it is really possible to settle the matter once and for all.

I'm Buddhist because I took refuge in the Dhamma, the Buddha and the Sangha. And because I find religion far too important to be left aside due to such a small detail as nonbelief.

Then again, I assume your definition of religion is as different from mine as Suraj's. Perhaps moreso even.

In my mind religion is about concrete choices and acts, while atheism is no more than a statement of style, of perspective. And Agnosticism, well, Agnosticism is the only intelectually honest stance anyone can have when if comes to god's existence. But it in no way substitutes, forces or impedes either theism or atheism. I don't know if it is possible to be a "pure" agnostic.

Fair explanation. But here is what I thought: As an Atheist you have your mind made up about the non-existence of God. The bridges are burned. As an Agnostic, you are neither here nor there; perhaps somwhere between yes and no. You don't confess but neither deny. You are beyond the bridge; but you have left it intact. As a Buddhist, I think I need to study a little more about it. I thought they would worship Buddha as a kind of god. At least, the superstitions of incense and candle linghts are almost like Catholics. Am I way out or fairly around?

Ben

 

[LuisDantas]

Fair explanation. But here is what I thought: As an Atheist you have your mind made up about the non-existence of God. The bridges are burned.

I guess it depends on what you mean exactly. What would such bridges be?

As an Agnostic, you are neither here nor there; perhaps somwhere between yes and no.

Or you just don't think it is possible - or, perhaps, important - to give a definitive answer.

You don't confess but neither deny. You are beyond the bridge; but you have left it intact.

So the bridge would be some sort of choice between theism and atheism?

You paint it as such a dramatic decision. I don't see why it would be.

As a Buddhist, I think I need to study a little more about it. I thought they would worship Buddha as a kind of god.

A few do, but that's very much against the teaching.

At least, the superstitions of incense and candle linghts are almost like Catholics. Am I way out or fairly around?
Ben

Way out, really. I wouldn't even call incense and candles "superstitions". They're part of rituals, that's all. And even then they're far from central, much less generally widespread.

 

[Ben Masada]

I guess it depends on what you mean exactly. What would such bridges be?

+++Ben: - The bridges would be open options. The consideration of possibilities.

Or you just don't think it is possible - or, perhaps, important - to give a definitive answer.

+++Ben: - Well Dantas, who has them? There is nothing definitive.

So the bridge would be some sort of choice between theism and atheism?

+++Ben: - Something of the sort.

You paint it as such a dramatic decision. I don't see why it would be.

+++Ben: - Not really dramatic. At least not the decision per se. The process yes. Any
decision is like death. Once it's taken, the struggle is discarded.

A few do, but that's very much against the teaching.

+++Ben: - Well, the same in every religion. But it's interesting that Buddhism is a religion and you are the first Atheist with a religion.

Way out, really. I wouldn't even call incense and candles "superstitions". They're part of rituals, that's all. And even then they're far from central, much less generally widespread.

+++Ben: - Rituals of religion and Dantas, an Atheist as part of it, it could never cross my mind if you had not told me yourself. I guess everything is possible in this world.

My comments go in between yours above.

Ben

 

[Storm]

Luis is far from the first atheistic Buddhist.

 

[LuisDantas]

The bridges would be open options. The consideration of possibilities.

What a curious metaphor. Atheism is not nearly that dramatic, trust me. In fact it is rather unimportant per se. It would even be unremarkable if I didn't keep running into situations where people expect me to believe in God somehow.

(...)

You paint it as such a dramatic decision. I don't see why it would be.

+++Ben: - Not really dramatic. At least not the decision per se. The process yes. Any
decision is like death. Once it's taken, the struggle is discarded.

What struggle? Do you think I suffered a lot before going atheist? Or since, whatever?

It is far harder to deal with being left-handed. When all is said and done, belief in God is a strictly personal matter that has no reason to involve difficult feelings.

A few do, but that's very much against the teaching.

+++Ben: - Well, the same in every religion. But it's interesting that Buddhism is a religion and you are the first Atheist with a religion.

That's simply not true, not by a long shot. One of these days I might write a paper on how exotic it is to believe in a God. Were it not for the Abrahamic faiths, it could well be seen as a curiosity, an excentricity even.

Way out, really. I wouldn't even call incense and candles "superstitions". They're part of rituals, that's all. And even then they're far from central, much less generally widespread.

+++Ben: - Rituals of religion and Dantas, an Atheist as part of it, it could never cross my mind if you had not told me yourself. I guess everything is possible in this world.

An atheist may participate in rituals, you know. And have a religion, as long as said religion isn't one that demands him to believe in God. That means no Abrahamic faiths - alas, not even my beloved Bahai Faith - and, I guess, no Paganism. Nearly everything else is fair game, even Shinto and the Sanatana Dharma, if you are persistent enough.

Actually, even Judaism has a place for atheists these days. Have you heard of Humanistic Judaism? I long for the day when Islam and Christianism follow its lead.

 

[Ben Masada]

What a curious metaphor. Atheism is not nearly that dramatic, trust me. In fact it is rather unimportant per se. It would even be unremarkable if I didn't keep running into situations where people expect me to believe in God somehow.

+++Ben: - Perhaps you would never indeed find people expecting you to believe in God if you were a real Atheist without any strings attached. But hey! This is just for the heck of argument. You can be whatever you want to be and I have no Hell to threaten you with.

What struggle? Do you think I suffered a lot before going atheist? Or since, whatever?

+++Ben: - No, I meant the struggle to be or to achieve, which once you become or achieve, the thing is discarded, and a new struggle is on for new achievements.

It is far harder to deal with being left-handed. When all is said and done, belief in God is a strictly personal matter that has no reason to involve difficult feelings.

+++Ben: - Here I find occasion for the following question: Dantas, what is it in you or in any Atheist to not decline an opportunity to debate a Theist or Creationist, if
you have nowhere, like a religious person, to bring the prospect to in case he is persuaded to leave his church?

That's simply not true, not by a long shot. One of these days I might write a paper on how exotic it is to believe in a God. Were it not for the Abrahamic faiths, it could well be seen as a curiosity, an excentricity even.

+++Ben: - The same as above.

An atheist may participate in rituals, you know. And have a religion, as long as said religion isn't one that demands him to believe in God. That means no Abrahamic faiths - alas, not even my beloved Bahai Faith - and, I guess, no Paganism. Nearly everything else is fair game, even Shinto and the Sanatana Dharma, if you are persistent enough.

+++Ben: - Well, again I say. I could never believe myself reading about rituals, religion, beliefs, faith, all related to Atheism in the same paragraph. Really new to me. Are you unique or you have met others like you?

Actually, even Judaism has a place for atheists these days. Have you heard of Humanistic Judaism? I long for the day when Islam and Christianism follow its lead.

Ben: - Yes, I have read quite a piece about Humanistic Judaism. In fact, I am very
humanistic myself. Only that I still can't let go of God. However, my conception of God
is as far from the religious concept as the North Pole is of the Southern one. My God
is incorporeal and destituted of any human attributes.

My comments follow yours in between above.

Ben)(

 

[LuisDantas]

My comments follow yours in between above.

Ben)(

I have been wondering for a while: do you dislike to use quote tags?

Perhaps you would never indeed find people expecting you to believe in God if you were a real Atheist without any strings attached.

I don't know what you are trying to suggest, but as it happens, I do have strings attached so to speak. I belong to a society that has people like you that don't really understand atheism.

Now, how or why that would make me any less of a real atheist, I have no idea. Care to explain?

But hey! This is just for the heck of argument. You can be whatever you want to be and I have no Hell to threaten you with.

Indeed, that is not a possibility.

What struggle? Do you think I suffered a lot before going atheist? Or since, whatever?

+++Ben: - No, I meant the struggle to be or to achieve, which once you become or achieve, the thing is discarded, and a new struggle is on for new achievements.

That still doesn't say anything.

It is far harder to deal with being left-handed. When all is said and done, belief in God is a strictly personal matter that has no reason to involve difficult feelings.

+++Ben: - Here I find occasion for the following question: Dantas, what is it in you or in any Atheist to not decline an opportunity to debate a Theist or Creationist, if
you have nowhere, like a religious person, to bring the prospect to in case he is persuaded to leave his church?

That's a very confused and loaded question, Ben. Try not to overcomplicate things.

Besides, I think I answered this one already, directly to you even: there is no point in blaming myself if someone happens to have, as you say, "nowhere" besides fragile beliefs to suport himself or herself.

Quite frankly, I don't think it would be very respectful of mine to assume someone is in some sort of danger just because I don't share their beliefs about God or Creationism and am not attempting to hide that fact. Theists aren't supposed to be so critically insecure. And if they are, I guess it is better to find out sooner rather than later and do something about that psychological fragility.

(...) I could never believe myself reading about rituals, religion, beliefs, faith, all related to Atheism in the same paragraph. Really new to me. Are you unique or you have met others like you?

Not unique at all. You're not quite acquaintanced with Atheism, are you now?

Actually, even Judaism has a place for atheists these days. Have you heard of Humanistic Judaism? I long for the day when Islam and Christianism follow its lead.

Ben: - Yes, I have read quite a piece about Humanistic Judaism. In fact, I am very
humanistic myself. Only that I still can't let go of God. However, my conception of God is as far from the religious concept as the North Pole is of the Southern one. My God is incorporeal and destituted of any human attributes.

Hey, that's Nirguna Brahma Maybe you're an Hinduist and don't know that yet.

Or maybe you're a pantheist or even a deist.

Either way, you take it way too seriously, it seems. Whatever you happen to think about God's existence, there is no point in letting it weight you down.

 

[Ben Masada]

I have been wondering for a while: do you dislike to use quote tags?

+++Ben: - Not really, unless I have to write a lot. You don't like the answers within the body of your composition?

I don't know what you are trying to suggest, but as it happens, I do have strings attached so to speak. I belong to a society that has people like you that don't really understand atheism.

+++Ben: - I do! I mean, I thought I did. I thought an Atheist would have no part with
religion, rituals or faith. I thought these things would be anathema to Atheists.

Now, how or why that would make me any less of a real atheist, I have no idea. Care to explain?

+++Ben: - I have expalined above.

Indeed, that is not a possibility.
That still doesn't say anything.
That's a very confused and loaded question, Ben. Try not to overcomplicate things.
Besides, I think I answered this one already, directly to you even: there is no point in blaming myself if someone happens to have, as you say, "nowhere" besides fragile beliefs to suport himself or herself.

+++Ben: - Wouldn't you feel guilty to "destroy" the faith of someone who expects to be somehow supported for letting go his or her religious connections?

Quite frankly, I don't think it would be very respectful of mine to assume someone is in some sort of danger just because I don't share their beliefs about God or Creationism and am not attempting to hide that fact. Theists aren't supposed to be so critically insecure. And if they are, I guess it is better to find out sooner rather than later and do something about that psychological fragility.

+++Ben: - Oh, but they are! I mean, Theists are usually critically insecure, especially those who have an anthropomophic idea of God. They would be devastated by the feeling to be left hovering in a vacuum without God, which is the only thing Atheists
have for them.

Not unique at all. You're not quite acquaintanced with Atheism, are you now?

+++Ben: - Yes, bewildered somehow, but better acquaintanced.

Hey, that's Nirguna Brahma Maybe you're an Hinduist and don't know that yet.
Or maybe you're a pantheist or even a deist.

+++Ben: - None of the above. Still a Theist. I mean, a modified form of Theism. More realistic and sprititual.

Either way, you take it way too seriously, it seems. Whatever you happen to think about God's existence, there is no point in letting it weight you down.

+++Ben: - Oh no! God for me is more of a target of studies than something to depress me.

My comments follow in between yours.

Ben

 

[LuisDantas]

I have been wondering for a while: do you dislike to use quote tags?

+++Ben: - Not really, unless I have to write a lot. You don't like the answers within the body of your composition?

They make quotations slightly harder to do, besides not being visually as sound. But it's not a big deal.

I don't know what you are trying to suggest, but as it happens, I do have strings attached so to speak. I belong to a society that has people like you that don't really understand atheism.

+++Ben: - I do! I mean, I thought I did. I thought an Atheist would have no part with religion, rituals or faith. I thought these things would be anathema to Atheists.

There are some atheists who think so, and many more who don't. Religion is something far more important and meaningful than belief in god. Rituals are unavoidable in any social culture. And faith is a practical need for anyone, at least when dissociated from belief in god.

Indeed, that is not a possibility.
That still doesn't say anything.

There isn't much to say. I just found it funny that you tried to reassume me about not ending up in Hell.

- Wouldn't you feel guilty to "destroy" the faith of someone who expects to be somehow supported for letting go his or her religious connections?

Of course not! Whatever that person had wasn't worth of being called faith, nor was it healthy.

(...) Theists aren't supposed to be so critically insecure. And if they are, I guess it is better to find out sooner rather than later and do something about that psychological fragility.

+++Ben: - Oh, but they are! I mean, Theists are usually critically insecure, especially those who have an anthropomophic idea of God. They would be devastated by the feeling to be left hovering in a vacuum without God,

Then it is probably a good idea to correct them ASAP, don't you think? Before such an unfortunate dependency grows. Although I think most theists are stronger and more mature than you give them credit for.

which is the only thing Atheists have for them.

But is it? People are much more than just their belief (or lack thereof) in God.

Not unique at all. You're not quite acquaintanced with Atheism, are you now?

+++Ben: - Yes, bewildered somehow, but better acquaintanced.

You don't look the part, I must say.

 

[Ben Masada]

They make quotations slightly harder to do, besides not being visually as sound. But it's not a big deal.
There are some atheists who think so, and many more who don't. Religion is something far more important and meaningful than belief in god. Rituals are unavoidable in any social culture. And faith is a practical need for anyone, at least when dissociated from belief in god.

+++Ben: - Here, we take different directions. You say that religion is more meaningful than belief in God. I say that recognition of God is more meaningful than religion. Religion can be too tragic. Religion produces faith and faith produces disappointment. You must remember what happened to the faithful of Jim Jones.

There isn't much to say. I just found it funny that you tried to reassume me about not ending up in Hell.

+++Ben: - Yes, we don't believe in Hell, or Heaven for that matter. Either place is but a state of mind. As places to go to, are promoted by relilgious crooks to play with people's fears.

Of course not! Whatever that person had wasn't worth of being called faith, nor was it healthy.

+++Ben: - But why would you worry about it? You said I take too hard on to believe in God. I think you put too much importance on the frailties of religious people.

Then it is probably a good idea to correct them ASAP, don't you think? Before such an unfortunate dependency grows. Although I think most theists are stronger and more mature than you give them credit for.

+++Ben: - Again, why correct them ASAP? What would happen if not? Oh! Dependency! Then again, why would you care?

But is it? People are much more than just their belief (or lack thereof) in God.

+++Ben: - Yes, I know. They are emotional; they have feelings. And they are not all
the same to react to Reality.

You don't look the part, I must say.

My comments go in between again. Sorry!

Ben:clap

 

[LuisDantas]

Here, we take different directions. You say that religion is more meaningful than belief in God. I say that recognition of God is more meaningful than religion.

Why so? Religion has a direction. It leads to somewhere. Belief in God is just belief.

Religion can be too tragic. Religion produces faith and faith produces disappointment. You must remember what happened to the faithful of Jim Jones.

Religion is serious business, that's for sure, and faith must be place with care.

(...) Of course not! Whatever that person had wasn't worth of being called faith, nor was it healthy.

+++Ben: - But why would you worry about it? You said I take too hard on to believe in God. I think you put too much importance on the frailties of religious people.

People matter.

Then it is probably a good idea to correct them ASAP, don't you think? Before such an unfortunate dependency grows. Although I think most theists are stronger and more mature than you give them credit for.

+++Ben: - Again, why correct them ASAP? What would happen if not? Oh! Dependency! Then again, why would you care?

Because it could have been me in their place, I guess.

 

[Ben Masada]

Why so? Religion has a direction. It leads to somewhere. Belief in God is just belief.
Religion is serious business, that's for sure, and faith must be place with care.
People matter.
Because it could have been me in their place, I guess.

Yes, religion requires faith and faith is too misleading. It only leads to disappointments in the short or long run.
Every so often it leads even into tragedies. Belief in God, on the other hand, considering it metaphysically,
I mean, spiritual belief, it brings the potential only to enhance knowledge.I do agree with you that religion is a serious business.
You used the right word: Business. That's all that there is to it. A business of exploitation of the mind.
People does matter indeed, and I am well aware of it. Hence, I derive my
Humanism, however, not because I could be in their place, which I am, but
because we are all in the same boat. In the same place, that is.

Ben

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, religion requires faith and faith is too misleading. It only leads to disappointments in the short or long run.
Every so often it leads even into tragedies. Belief in God, on the other hand, considering it metaphysically,
I mean, spiritual belief, it brings the potential only to enhance knowledge.

I must emphatically disagree. Organized religions at least have peers to help in discussing and helping with excesses, when they are healthy enough. Belief in God can and does often degenerate into the very same tragedies you describe.