• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Logic VS, Faith

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, I do use reason and evidence. They are just limited and can only get you so far.

And without them you get nowhere.

They don't work on morality, aesthetics, what is useful and important, and metaphysics.
You don't understand that there are other forms of truth than the one you use:

Morality is a set of rules and principles that are agreed upon by more than one person. If you are the only person alive, no need for a moral code. Aesthetics is opinion and is in the eye of the beholder. True/False does not apply to morality or aesthetic, and neither have anything to do with what is real and existent and whether faith in the imaginary is appropriate.

Or I do a combined version of phenomenology and transcendental idealism and figure out if it works for me. If it works, it is true.
You do truth differently and you can't understand how it can be done differently.

There is a difference between a belief working for you psychologically and a belief representing that which is real and existent.

I use truth and evidence differently than you.
You want your reason and truth to apply to a "we". I just do it differently.

If the goal is to understand that which is real and existent, then no, it isn't whatever feels uniquely "right" to each individual, and faith doesn't apply.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

If the goal is to understand that which is real and existent, then no, it isn't whatever feels uniquely "right" to each individual, and faith doesn't apply.

I don't believe in real and existence like you do. To me they are both subjective as they have no objective referent.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
And so it depends what is at stakes, what the potential risks are. With low risk it is easy to assume, guess, hope that something is true. When the stakes are high, isn't it foolish to assume something is true without any evidence, or worse, contradictory evidence? Is not caution the better part of valor on high stakes issues?
That depends on a whole host of mostly subjective criteria.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't believe in real and existence like you do. To me they are both subjective as they have no objective referent.
As I have suggested to you elsewhere, set the philosophy books aside and crack open some science books instead.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
As I have suggested to you elsewhere, set the philosophy books aside and crack open some science books instead.

Okay, find an online scientific reference to real and existence. Preferably what they are measured in and what instruments you use to scientifically measure real and existence.
Do they belong to physics, chemistry, biology or what?
What scientific theories are they used in?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Okay, find an online scientific reference to real and existence. Preferably what they are measured in and what instruments you use to scientifically measure real and existence.
Do they belong to physics, chemistry, biology or what?
What scientific theories are they used in?
All of the above and the many explanations I have provided elsewhere. Just start. Learn all you can. Learn about all the trial and error, missteps, dead-end inquiry, and all the eureka moments, the flashes of insight that bring all the pieces into place, and rapid expansions of understanding as a critical obstacle is overcome. Watch how our collective body of knowledge expands from the Enlightenment through to today. Understanding how the world works is not what feels right to you absent information (philosophy), you need to consider all the available information before you draw conclusions.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you are asking. Reality doesn't belong to anyone.
Reality is an idea that we carry around in our heads based on our accumulated experiences and understanding of 'what is'. Everyone's is different because we are all different, and because none of us has full or universal access to the big 'what is'.

For us, the big 'what is' can only be what we think it is.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
All of the above and the many explanations I have provided elsewhere. Just start. Learn all you can. Learn about all the trial and error, missteps, dead-end inquiry, and all the eureka moments, the flashes of insight that bring all the pieces into place, and rapid expansions of understanding as a critical obstacle is overcome. Watch how our collective body of knowledge expands from the Enlightenment through to today. Understanding how the world works is not what feels right to you absent information (philosophy), you need to consider all the available information before you draw conclusions.

I need an online link from a science site. Not some random human on the Internet. If it is science, it is published and peer-reviewed and out there.
Give me a source I can check. Not your words. Someone else from an source, that is scientific.
Find a book and give me the details, so I can order it.

Stop using your own words and back it up with a source in regards to real and existence.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Reality is an idea that we carry around in our heads based on our accumulated experiences and understanding of 'what is'. Everyone's is different because we are all different, and because none of us has full or universal access to the big 'what is'.
For us, the big 'what is' can only be what we think it is.

That's not the complete picture. In addition to our accumulated experiences, we have the accumulated experiences of everyone else. As I have said elsewhere, we are fallible, imperfect creatures. The only way to have confidence in an idea is if it holds up over many observation, by many individuals, over time. The greater the corroboration and predictive reliability for future observations, the greater the confidence in a particular observation, thought, or idea. It is in this way that we begin to build a more accurate picture of reality that is independent of what we personally think or feel. A reality that will keep on chugging along, whether we are around to experience it or not.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's not the complete picture. In addition to our accumulated experiences, we have the accumulated experiences of everyone else. As I have said elsewhere, we are fallible, imperfect creatures. The only way to have confidence in an idea is if it holds up over many observation, by many individuals, over time. The greater the corroboration and predictive reliability for future observations, the greater the confidence in a particular observation, thought, or idea. It is in this way that we begin to build a more accurate picture of reality that is independent of what we personally think or feel. A reality that will keep on chugging along, whether we are around to experience it or not.

That is your subjective idea of reality. I have another.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
You say that, and yet everything after those to sentences is merely marketing. None of it addresses the reasons I gave for my position.


All that this says is that smart people; even smart non-believers agree with you. Nothing more. Nothing responsive Nothing of substance.


This doesn't add anything. All yuou are saying is that you have done tests and you are convinced that you are correct. This is like me walking up to you with a basket of eyeballs, and telling you that you should eat them, and that its okay because I have "done tests".


There is nothing that is correct. And as I said before, an omnipotent being who "chose to gradually end slavery" rather than stopping it immediately, or better yet, never let it begin, is evil.
Challenge yourself to think on some basic questions: What is free will, or agency?

Would those be needed for some good? Is agency/freedom a prerequisite for such things as love, progress, music, and so on?

If yes, then next: What constitutes freedom/agency? Would it include the freedom to do harmful things also? (yes, by definition)

Ergo, good things we value cannot exist without the possibility/inevitability of wrongful things happening also. And the challenge for a good guide is to help individuals become more able to do what is best for all, instead of acting in a civilization destroying way.

If you want a peaceful civilization full of good experiences, you have to teach the people to do what leads to peace and harmony, energetic enjoyment, love, and such things, instead of merely theft, harms, etc. in their million different variations.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I need an online link from a science site. Not some random human on the Internet. If it is science, it is published and peer-reviewed and out there.
Give me a source I can check. Not your words. Someone else from an source, that is scientific.
Find a book and give me the details, so I can order it.

Stop using your own words and back it up with a source in regards to real and existence.

Bit silly request, don't you think? My summary of the neuroscience of the central nervous system is my summary. I did not cut and paste it out of the internet. If you want to learn more about neuroscience I encourage you to explore on your own. ( I fear you will not be interested). If you want to know more about issues like confirmation bias and self-deception, or issues like the effects of socialized behavior and indoctrination, please feel free to explore. If you want to learn how and why the scientific method of inquiry was developed to control for and mitigate human error and faulty reasoning, by all means, dig in. However, I am not going to hold your hand through such a lengthy process.
 

Zaha Torte

Active Member
Abraham and Isaac
This is a perfect example of what I am espousing.

Abraham had an entire lifetime - a century - of God making promises to him that if he did X he would receive blessing Y - and then when Abraham did X God made good on his promises.

All of these promises eventually culminated in the birth of Isaac - which was a fulfillment of God's promise that Abraham would become a great nation that would bless all the families of the Earth.

So - Abraham had a lifetime of knowing and trusting God - then the commandment to sacrifice Isaac came.

This could be an even more significant thing than the Bible records because if you have read certain noncanonical books of scripture - and even one Mormon one - it is believed that Abraham himself had been a subject of sacrifice - not once but twice.

The Book of Jasher claims that Nimrod - who claimed to be king of the world - wanted to have the newborn Abraham sacrificed because his soothsayers prophesied that the child would one day become a greater king than him.

Terah - Abrahams father - swapped his newborn for another and Nimrod killed it.

The Book of Abraham - the Mormon one - claimed that as a young man Abraham was almost sacrificed in Ur of the Chaldees by the priest of Pharoah - but an angel came and rescued him.

So - if these records are accurate - this commandment would have had even more of an impact on Abraham than the Bible portrays.

Either way - Abraham knew that God did not work in human sacrifice and he knew that God had made promises to him that would have been broken if Isaac were to die at that time.

So - no - I don't consider this story to be one of "blind faith" - because Abraham had a lifetime of knowing and trusting God and he knew that God did not break his promises.

It was "informed faith" - but he it was still "faith" nonetheless - meaning it was not perfect knowledge - so he had a modicum of doubt.
Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
I also do not consider this to be an example of "blind faith".

Thomas and the other disciples had been taught by the Lord personally for years. They had seen His miracles all that time. Not only that - but they themselves had been given authority and they exclaimed after using that authority that they themselves had power over evil spirits and that they could heal the sick.

Also - Thomas had heard the Lord prophesy His own death and subsequent Resurrection on multiple occasions - even though he and the other disciples did not understand it.

Also consider that Mary saw angels and the Lord personally and conveyed their message that He had risen and that His disciples were to go meet Him at Galilee.

Peter and John witnessed the empty tomb and two other disciples met the risen Lord on the way to the town of Emmaus.

So after watching His Lord be crucified - Thomas remained faithful to the commission given him by the Lord and stayed with the Twelve. He heard the testimonies of Mary, Peter and John and went with them to Galilee. Even though he was not with them the first time that the Lord appeared to them - he remained with them there.

Yes - he did not believe their claims - he considered it too good to be true - and it would have been better for him had he believed without seeing - but he was hardly "blind" in his faith.

He had experienced so much - received so many witnesses in answer to his passing trials of faith over the years - he was not exercising "blind faith".

Either way - he was not judged negatively for his doubt - he remained a member of the Twelve until his death.
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
If you are doing as the Lord commands - your faith is not "blind" - because you are receiving witness after witness for passing your trials of faith.
Do you have demonstrable falsifyable evidence that there is a god?
Can you prove that the color green exists? Not everyone can see it. Can you demonstrate what salt tastes like? Does everyone taste it the same?

There are many things in life that we cannot prove to others. We need to experience them for ourselves.

I can talk about the scriptures and my personal experiences with you all day long - but that is not how anyone truly learns or demonstrates these things.

You would need to actually do these things we are talking about. Exercise faith in a particular principle. Test it out. Experiment with it. See if you receive the promised blessing associated with that principle.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17)

You would need to "do his will" - or in other words "keep his commandments" - in order to "know of the doctrine".
I would call that blind faith. I do not have the believe that there is an elephant on the lawn before being able to perceive the elephant. In other words, I do not have to go through a "trial of faith" to perceive things that are real. Because my belief is irrelevant to what exists.
Let me try to use this analogy another way.

Let's say your neighbor told you that there was an elephant running rampant in your neighborhood.

If you immediately dismiss it as crazy and go back inside claiming that you would never believe such a story unless the elephant were to present itself to you - you may never know if there had actually been an elephant.

So - what if you exercise a particle of "faith" in what your neighbor said and stay outside and look around a bit?

Suddenly - you see a large elephant foot-shaped impression in your lawn. This is startling. You start to feel as though there may be some truth to what your neighbor said.

You had put what your neighbor had said to the test. Gave it only the bare minimum of effort. It may not be true - but you received a witness that there may be some truth here.

The more time and effort you dedicate to study and follow these - the more likely you will be able to prove or disprove to yourself if an elephant had actually ran through your neighbor.

It's "line upon line" and "precept upon precept" when it comes to knowing the things of God.

He is not going to force anything on you. He is not going to appear to you if you are not prepared.
I could see why that could be irksome in circumstances where it really doesn't matter. Which is probably most circumstances. My (pre-covid) bartender honestly believed the earth was flat. I thought it was fascinating. Though I will tell you Zaha, if someone had a child whose life could be saved by a blood transfusion, and they refused on the basis of their faith, I would not feel one iota of regret for cursing them angrily. And I would defy anyone for being offended by my doing so. Save for perhaps that child.
I would be right there cursing them with you.

However - I would become offended if you tried to force people to violate their beliefs.

I would encourage you to try and persuade them - but if any sort of force - legal or otherwise is applied - you would lose my support.

People have the right to to live according to their beliefs - no matter how dumb we think they are.
I intentionally chose examples that were likely out dated to make my point without making you defensive. I would say that all faith based existential/ontological beliefs that are either unsupported by, or are contradicted by, the scientific evidence fall under the category of faulty thinking.
Perhaps - but the scientific community has been wrong before.

I'm not claiming that actual evidence is wrong - but the theories that people formulate based on the evidence can and have been wrong before.
It's not what one thinks, but why one thinks it. You know?
Faith is important though. I believe many things that I cannot prove. There just is not way I could prove it. That doesn't mean those things are not true.

I believe that it is illogical to reject an idea because it cannot be proven.
 
Last edited:

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Bit silly request, don't you think? My summary of the neuroscience of the central nervous system is my summary. I did not cut and paste it out of the internet. If you want to learn more about neuroscience I encourage you to explore on your own. ( I fear you will not be interested). If you want to know more about issues like confirmation bias and self-deception, or issues like the effects of socialized behavior and indoctrination, please feel free to explore. If you want to learn how and why the scientific method of inquiry was developed to control for and mitigate human error and faulty reasoning, by all means, dig in. However, I am not going to hold your hand through such a lengthy process.

No, You claim science, real and existence. You provide the evidence from a source of science. You are not science. You are somebody on the Internet.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The whole point expressed in my statement is the mitigation of subjectivity. Without which you have conjecture, speculation, self-deception, and pure imagination.

Yeah, I get that. Now please find an Internet source or book about all 3 and how they are connected: Science, real and existence. Not physics, chemistry, biology or what not. A source other than you, which links together science, real and existence.
You made the claim. You deliver or I consider it your subjective idea.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, You claim science, real and existence. You provide the evidence from a source of science. You are not science. You are somebody on the Internet.

I am indeed just a guy on the internet. But I'm pretty confident you know I'm right. All you have to do is explore and learn, and then you'll know for sure. :)
 
Top