Logically, agnosticism is the most rational position

[ArtieE]

@ArtieE
A person who does believe in the existence of ones own self without any proofs and evidences whatsoever as one experiences oneself existing so why should one not believe in God's existence likewise very naturally. Further proofs or signs are to enhance one's belief in God, they are for the believers and not for the unbelievers.
Those who don't believe in their own existence need no proof at all for the existence of God. Right? Please
Anybody, please.
Regards

Sorry but this post makes no sense to me. Please rephrase. I have loads of evidence that I exist. I show up on photographs, for example. Does God?

 

[Neo Deist]

You completely and utterly miss the point. The point wasn't about the existence of hell but about the non-existence of free will if you could be sent there against your will.

I did not miss the point. I do not believe in hell, so why on earth would I answer a hypothetical question about something that I do not believe in?

 

[Acim]

2. Surely sending people to hell would be a clear violation of our free will? Unless our free will is revoked the second our physical body dies?

I'm thinking this is also speaking to free choice, but will answer it anyways. Doing anything that counters our (inherent) freedom would be a violation of that freedom.

I'm yet to find example of anything that counters our inherent freedom that actually exists.

 

[McBell]

I did not miss the point. I do not believe in hell, so why on earth would I answer a hypothetical question about something that I do not believe in?

I do not know why you are so afraid of answering the hypothetical question.
Though it has peaked my curiosity as to why the hypothetical scares you so much.

 

[ArtieE]

I did not miss the point. I do not believe in hell, so why on earth would I answer a hypothetical question about something that I do not believe in?

The point has nothing to do with the existence of hell or the belief in the existence of hell the point was that if you could be ordered there against your will you don't have free will to choose not to go to hell.

 

[George-ananda]

As far as what I do with my life, how I treat others, the choices that I make or how I think outside of my own, personal spirituality? Nope, none at all. That is because I choose to be a law abiding, moral person.

Deism is just my spiritual philosophy.

Thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question. My question was more; does your spiritual philosophy effect the way you think about your life. For example, I am of Advaita philosophy and it makes me think of my inner core as eternal and striving to find the Oneness with all. Does your spiritual philosophy make you believe anything about your life that would differ from one with an atheist philosophy?

 

[Neo Deist]

I do not know why you are so afraid of answering the hypothetical question.
Though it has peaked my curiosity as to why the hypothetical scares you so much.

LOL...afraid.

He gave me a hypothetical scenario that I do not even believe in. Any answer I give would be pure speculation about something that does not exist. We might as well be talking about fairies and unicorns.

But I can already see where he wants the conversation to go in that hypothetical. I say "yes, it would violate our free will" and then he goes "ah ha!" as if he won some major argument. Then I come back with something to the effect of "but our bodies are not in hell, only our souls/life force/energy" and can a spiritual substance make a free will choice? At that point we have a purely speculative discussion over something that neither of us can prove.

I don't see the logic in such a discussion, especially when I do not believe in the damn place to begin with.

 

[Neo Deist]

Does your spiritual philosophy make you believe anything about your life that would differ from one with an atheist philosophy?

Probably not, other than I choose to believe in God as the creator of the universe and natural law.

 

[George-ananda]

Probably not, other than I choose to believe in God as the creator of the universe and natural law.

That reaffirms my thinking on this Deist stuff all along. A belief that has no effect on my life or thoughts about my life is not really important or interesting to me. I would think like; so what if this deist God exists or doesn't exist; doesn't effect me. It would be like any other emotionally uninvolving subject.

 

[Neo Deist]

That reaffirms my thinking on this Deist stuff all along. A belief that has no effect on my life or thoughts about my life is not really important or interesting to me. I would think like; so what if this deist God exists or doesn't exist; doesn't effect me. It would be like any other emotionally uninvolving subject.

Ok.

 

[Acim]

The point has nothing to do with the existence of hell or the belief in the existence of hell the point was that if you could be ordered there against your will you don't have free will to choose not to go to hell.

IMO, it has something to do with hell to help make your point sensible. Why not just use any place on earth as the example, or even earth itself? Like we are 'sent here' according to many believers, and just say if that is the case and it's against your choice, does that not violate free will choice?

I'm glad I chose to answer it.

 

[George-ananda]

Ok.

So why do you seem passionate about deism? What would motivate you to become a doctorate in theology??

 

[Neo Deist]

So why do you seem passionate about deism? What would motivate you to become a doctorate in theology??

Deism resonates with me. I find logic within its realm. I like to challenge conservatives/Christians to think outside of the box, to ask questions and to use their God given intelligence.

I started seminary as a Southern Baptist with every intent on becoming a full time minister. I finished as a deist with a doctorate in theology. Never stop learning!

 

[ArtieE]

IMO, it has something to do with hell to help make your point sensible. Why not just use any place on earth as the example, or even earth itself? Like we are 'sent here' according to many believers, and just say if that is the case and it's against your choice, does that not violate free will choice?

I'm glad I chose to answer it.

The definition of free will is "the ability to choose how to act, the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God". I see your point. In an NDE you can use your free will to choose not to return to Earth but forcing you back to Earth is not a violation of your free will you are just not allowed to act according to your choice.

 

[George-ananda]

Deism resonates with me. I find logic within its realm. I like to challenge conservatives/Christians to think outside of the box, to ask questions and to use their God given intelligence.

I started seminary as a Southern Baptist with every intent on becoming a full time minister. I finished as a deist with a doctorate in theology. Never stop learning!

That answer is kind of what I guessed at. You want to establish and educate your position against the right wing (conservative Christianity). On many subjects I find the ex-whatevers to be the most vehement fighters. I guess part of my probing was because we think differently as its been a long, long time since I considered conservative Christianity to be an intellectual challenge to defend against. I am actually at the point that as long as conservative Christians are happy and don't bother others, I let them be. It's kind of like not liking to argue against Santa Claus to a little tyke.

 

[McBell]

LOL...afraid.

Yes, afraid.

He gave me a hypothetical scenario that I do not even believe in.

so you fear getting it wrong?

Any answer I give would be pure speculation about something that does not exist. We might as well be talking about fairies and unicorns.

Interesting you left out "god"....

But I can already see where he wants the conversation to go in that hypothetical. I say "yes, it would violate our free will" and then he goes "ah ha!" as if he won some major argument. Then I come back with something to the effect of "but our bodies are not in hell, only our souls/life force/energy" and can a spiritual substance make a free will choice? At that point we have a purely speculative discussion over something that neither of us can prove.

Comical addition "at that point"...

I don't see the logic in such a discussion, especially when I do not believe in the damn place to begin with.

So you are afraid of you answer putting you in a catch 22?

Interesting.
most interesting indeed.

 

[Acim]

Deism resonates with me. I find logic within its realm. I like to challenge conservatives/Christians to think outside of the box, to ask questions and to use their God given intelligence.

I started seminary as a Southern Baptist with every intent on becoming a full time minister. I finished as a deist with a doctorate in theology. Never stop learning!

I see "using God given intelligence" as intervention. And a little odd to me that a rational theist would not see it this way. But again, if drawing very sharp distinction, to point of separation, between God and Creation, then I could understand (though not fully agree with) idea of how this isn't 'truly intervention.'

I almost said "odd to me that a rational person" would not see it this way, to include all the agnostics that may be reading this, but would (for them) beg the question of 'how do we know it is God given?' Which would return to discussion / debate I raised in my first post of this thread.

 

[Muffled]

How do you explain the various "missing links" or transitional species that show the gradual evolutionary changes that brought us to modern humans?

I believe it would be like someone from the future only finding a few rock songs: Devil in the Blue dress by Mitch Ryder and Running with the Devil by Van Halen and deciding that rock music must have developed from devil worship.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry for teasing you. But all life includes bacteria. Logically.

But I see what you mean. Next time I will try not to vacuum clean that poor innocent bug eating my expensive curtains. For it does not know what it is doing.

By the way: why do we need bacteria to survive? is that part of divine design?

Ciao

- viole

I believe without the good bacteria we would have trouble processing food. Antibiotics kill all bacteria whether good or bad so the doctors tell us to use a probiotic to restore bacteria to our system. One would wonder whether we were designed that way. Symbiosis seems contrary to the concept of evolution.

 

[Willamena]

You completely and utterly miss the point. The point wasn't about the existence of hell but about the non-existence of free will if you could be sent there against your will.

Doing things against your will affirms free will. If we didn't have that will, nothing we do could be set against it.