Looking for people who have some aim or purpose in these forums

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you’d like to try to explain it to me, I’m interested. Have you tried to explain it to anyone recently?

God did it

@mikkel_the_dane I just got a new idea, while I was posting in one of your threads. When we see people using words for their psychological and social effects, more that for trying to actually communicate something, to stop using those words in our thinking, and find other ways to think about the issues.

That is it. See below
Words are sometimes used as for lack of better phrase as power words or if you like as authoritative words. But there is more. Have you ever heard of e-prime?
E-Prime - Wikipedia

Now I will try. Instead of "I am rational", here it goes. I have found, that sometimes I use reason and logic as processes in my thinking, but when I check further I discovered that I then switched from describing and explaining to evaluating and prescribing.
The use of "is" can cover up what we do as humans, because it turns evaluation of purpose, meaning and understanding into statements of facts. E.g. "this idea is stupid" but rather what happens, takes places as in different humans understanding differently.

Further there are The Center for Nonviolent Communication | Center for Nonviolent Communication
So now I stop doing e-prime and will try to explain the limit of the Internet in combination with what happens when using authoritative words and phrases. I sometimes forget that there is an actual human at the other end and start using facts and "that I am better, because I understand better than you".

Here is a very simple example of what happens sometimes in a debate.
...
Someone: It is meaningless.
Me. No, it is meaningless to you. Further "it is meaningless" means that you understand and evaluate differently than me.
Someone: But it is wrong.
Me: No, wrong happens as process done by you, You assign value to the world, but in one sense the value is not in the world out there, value happens as you, you do value.
Someone: But truth matters.
Me: Yes, but that is to you. But not all truth happens as the same for all humans in exactly the same way.
Someone: Reality is the same to all humans.
Me: ...

To complicate even further you hit this:
Self-Reflective Awareness: A Crucial Life Skill
I notice it sometimes in myself. I stop being reflective and act out on the other human in the debate by "hitting" him/her with "facts". It is not "facts", it is my feelings and emotions I turn against the other human. But I don't notice it, because I am my thoughts and feelings reflexively, rather than stopping and try to find common ground. In short, I try to win.

And now my personal limit and how what I tell you has a limit. I know of all of this, because I have a handicap. I am a combination of a special needs person and I have a social/psychological/psychiatric disorder or if you like: Not that I am crazy, but rather a part of me as how I act, is different that a "normal" human. So I have had to learn to catch, hold, examine and do my thoughts and feelings differently, or I end up causing discomfort in myself and/or others.
But it has a limit. I am not an expert and I can tell you of it, but you have to look elsewhere to find other angles, because how I do it, is my way and that is properly not yours.

With regards

 

[Jim]

God did it



That is it. See below
Words are sometimes used as for lack of better phrase as power words or if you like as authoritative words. But there is more. Have you ever heard of e-prime?
E-Prime - Wikipedia

Now I will try. Instead of "I am rational", here it goes. I have found, that sometimes I use reason and logic as processes in my thinking, but when I check further I discovered that I then switched from describing and explaining to evaluating and prescribing.
The use of "is" can cover up what we do as humans, because it turns evaluation of purpose, meaning and understanding into statements of facts. E.g. "this idea is stupid" but rather what happens, takes places as in different humans understanding differently.

Further there are The Center for Nonviolent Communication | Center for Nonviolent Communication
So now I stop doing e-prime and will try to explain the limit of the Internet in combination with what happens when using authoritative words and phrases. I sometimes forget that there is an actual human at the other end and start using facts and "that I am better, because I understand better than you".

Here is a very simple example of what happens sometimes in a debate.
...
Someone: It is meaningless.
Me. No, it is meaningless to you. Further "it is meaningless" means that you understand and evaluate differently than me.
Someone: But it is wrong.
Me: No, wrong happens as process done by you, You assign value to the world, but in one sense the value is not in the world out there, value happens as you, you do value.
Someone: But truth matters.
Me: Yes, but that is to you. But not all truth happens as the same for all humans in exactly the same way.
Someone: Reality is the same to all humans.
Me: ...

To complicate even further you hit this:
Self-Reflective Awareness: A Crucial Life Skill
I notice it sometimes in myself. I stop being reflective and act out on the other human in the debate by "hitting" him/her with "facts". It is not "facts", it is my feelings and emotions I turn against the other human. But I don't notice it, because I am my thoughts and feelings reflexively, rather than stopping and try to find common ground. In short, I try to win.

And now my personal limit and how what I tell you has a limit. I know of all of this, because I have a handicap. I am a combination of a special needs person and I have a social/psychological/psychiatric disorder or if you like: Not that I am crazy, but rather a part of me as how I act, is different that a "normal" human. So I have had to learn to catch, hold, examine and do my thoughts and feelings differently, or I end up causing discomfort in myself and/or others.
But it has a limit. I am not an expert and I can tell you of it, but you have to look elsewhere to find other angles, because how I do it, is my way and that is properly not yours.

With regards

I know Korzybski very well. I discovered him in my late teens or early twenties. I owe him a lot for what I’ve learned all my life, about how to think. Especially what he said about the “is” of identity, and “the map is not the territory.” ! I never thought of that before! “The map is not the territory.” Another thought that came to me just now is about the “is” of identity, and the ever-increasingly folly and oppressiveness of identity factions. “It’s who I am, the core of my inner being.” Anyone who thinks he’s a woman is a woman.

I’ll need some time to digest everything you’ve said. For now I’ll just describe my all-purpose strategy for helping to change what kind of behavior is popular, including ways of thinking.
- Continually try to improve my own practice of the attitudes and behavior I’m promoting.
- Learn to be a better friend to more people.
- Learn to tell stories that inspire people to want to improve their own attitudes and behavior.
- Help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities.
- Bring all that up for discussion sometimes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I know Korzybski very well. I discovered him in my late teens or early twenties. I owe him a lot for what I’ve learned all my life, about how to think. Especially what he said about the “is” of identity, and “the map is not the territory.” ! I never thought of that before! “The map is not the territory.” Another thought that came to me just now is about the “is” of identity, and the ever-increasingly folly and oppressiveness of identity factions. “It’s who I am, the core of my inner being.” Anyone who thinks he’s a woman is a woman.

I’ll need some time to digest everything you’ve said. For now I’ll just describe my all-purpose strategy for helping to change what kind of behavior is popular, including ways of thinking.
- Continually try to improve my own practice of the attitudes and behavior I’m promoting.
- Learn to be a better friend to more people.
- Learn to tell stories that inspire people to want to improve their own attitudes and behavior.
- Help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities.
- Bring all that up for discussion sometimes.

Here is an example of how language creeps from one part to another.
Take a stone, you know a rock. A stone is a thing, right? No, not quite, a stone is a part of a class of experiences, which humans have or rather experience and when explained as experiences relates to objective as a relationship. So a thing is not a thing. It is a class of experience, which denotes a relationship of how you interact. How you can interact with a "thing".
Here for objective, my bold:
of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
Definition of OBJECTIVE

Now notice the second bold. That one is philosophy or rather the western cultural myth of what reality really is.
So back to the: “The map is not the territory.” Simply ask where is the map, if not a part of the landscape?
That one creeps up in everyday communication about how we ought to act. We ought only to state the really objective facts of the landscape and then we are done. The problem is that "ought" is a model of how we ought to behave. In this dichotomy of model versus landscape ought is a model word and doesn't belong to the landscape. "Ought" is not a part of objective reality as having reality independent of the mind.
But it runs so deep in some humans as for objective as a power and authoritative word, that the highest value is objectivity. Objective is better than subjective.
Objective in another version:
expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
Definition of OBJECTIVE
Now look at "better" in: Objective is better than subjective. That is not objective, because it is a personal interpretation. Now combine with the "is" and then you notice what is going on. Some people believe they are stating an objective fact about the landscape just like the moon orbits the earth. But they are not.

That is in part what you are dealing with some humans. In effect they don't notice when they are subjective, because they only state facts: It is wrong to use beliefs without evidence. That is not an objective fact, but to them it is.
So here it is as a sort of religion. It works like a religion, because objective facts are in effect God to them. Objective facts tell us all how we ought to behave, because: It is wrong to use beliefs without evidence.

So guess what happens when I try to explain that to one of them.
I "attack" their faith in how reality really is.

 

[Jim]

I think that when people are using words, consciously or unconsciously, for their psychological and social effects, then no amount of discussion of any kind will change that, until they find better ways of satisfying their psychological and social needs and desires.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think that when people are using words, consciously or unconsciously, for their psychological and social effects, then no amount of discussion of any kind will change that, until they find better ways of satisfying their psychological and social needs and desires.

Yeah, I am an intellectual, but in the end it is on the political and social activism end, where it has to happen. I know. You try to practice it and I talk about it. I get that and I know, how that is. I am really "bad" at interacting with people on some level, so I turn it into words about other words.

You practice it and I turn it in to theory.

 

[Jim]

Yeah, I am an intellectual, but in the end it is on the political and social activism end, where it has to happen. I know. You try to practice it and I talk about it. I get that and I know, how that is. I am really "bad" at interacting with people on some level, so I turn it into words about other words.

You practice it and I turn it in to theory.

Maybe your theory can help me. Now I have reason to read all your posts in the “God did it” thread. After this, maybe when you try to explain it to people, you could notify me here, and tell me where to look.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Maybe your theory can help me. Now I have reason to read all your posts in the “God did it” thread. After this, maybe when you try to explain it to people, you could notify me here, and tell me where to look.

Here:

...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Maybe your theory can help me. Now I have reason to read all your posts in the “God did it” thread. After this, maybe when you try to explain it to people, you could notify me here, and tell me where to look.

And here is the limits of my theory:

Trust is not of our own making; it is given. Our life is so constituted that it cannot be lived except as one person lays him or herself open to another person and puts him or herself into that person’s hands either by showing or claiming trust. By our very attitude to another we help to shape that person’s world. By our attitude to the other person we help to determine the scope and hue of his or her world; we make it large or small, bright or drab, rich or dull, threatening or secure. We help to shape his or her world not by theories and views but by our very attitude towards him or her. Herein lies the unarticulated and one might say anonymous demand that we take care of the life which trust has placed in our hands.

K.E. Løgstrup The Ethical Demand (Notre Dame, IN: Notre Dame University Press, 1997) p.18

I know this. My wife is a social worker, nurse assistant and artist. All 3 as formal educations and in the end as a social worker among humans, that is where it ends.
I have read all her books as part of her 3 educations and in the end for how to interact with other humans, it is already in the books.
The rest of the theories I know are aspects of how not to miss something relevant about how humans work as observed in science. But that comes to naught, unless you don't get this one.
All theories are only as good as they describe the practice of being human. All practice can be made better by having more theories about the diversity of being human so you don't overlook something relevant in understand and dealing with/helping other humans toward a better world.
But you rely on trust. Believe in that, my fellow human. I trust God and I try to show and receive trust in the everyday world.
Trust is everywhere. Even here.

 

[Jim]

@mikkel_the_dane I think and feel the same way about our relationship with nature.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@mikkel_the_dane I think and feel the same way about our relationship with nature.

Me too, though nature is sometime far away for a city-dweller like me. Yet other times so close, because it is also in me and my dogs and cat. My wife too and also in you.

You seem to get it. We are in effect comparing notes.

Peace.

 

[Jim]

Me too, though nature is sometime far away for a city-dweller like me. Yet other times so close, because it is also in me and my dogs and cat. My wife too and also in you.

You seem to get it. We are in effect comparing notes.

Peace.

That’s part of what I was hoping for in this thread, comparing notes with people about our ideas and experiences, in whatever each of us is trying to do.

How does your knowledge and understanding of all this affect what you do in the forums and how you do it, or how would you like it to affect what you do and how you do it?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That’s part of what I was hoping for in this thread, comparing notes with people about our ideas and experiences, in whatever each of us is trying to do.

How does your knowledge and understanding of all this affect what you do in the forums and how you do it, or how would you like it to affect what you do and how you do it?

I used to fight with reason, logic and evidence. Now I try to find common ground. But I still fight sometimes. I am a former professional soldier and thought never been at war, I was drilled well. Some of the other posters still trigger the fight in me and that is on me, because I let myself get triggered.

As theory I don't know. I know it connects to how to deal with my cognition and feelings/emotions but that is so wide that there is no single theory for that. But if I have to, then start with self-reflection and please include formal science. Some of the new-age stuff is not that useful..

 

[Jim]

Topic for a thread: Better use of our human capacities, as a reason for thinking of the world around us as part of a personal relationship with someone who created it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Topic for a thread: Better use of our human capacities, as a reason for thinking of the world around us as part of a personal relationship with someone who created it.

Got you. Give me a PM. I will do the atheism part as a dialectical part of it. I believe it is possible.

 

[Jim]

I used to fight with reason, logic and evidence. Now I try to find common ground. But I still fight sometimes. I am a former professional soldier and thought never been at war, I was drilled well. Some of the other posters still trigger the fight in me and that is on me, because I let myself get triggered.

As theory I don't know. I know it connects to how to deal with my cognition and feelings/emotions but that is so wide that there is no single theory for that. But if I have to, then start with self-reflection and please include formal science. Some of the new-age stuff is not that useful..

In forum debating I see people using words in a variety of ways that make them useless for communication, or even for clear thinking about anything that people are debating about.

I’m wondering if I really understand what you’re saying, because it makes me wonder why you keep debating with people about it.

It might not be possible to find any common ground for discussion, without any common purpose for it.

 

[Jim]

Got you. Give me a PM. I will do the atheism part as a dialectical part of it. I believe it is possible.

That was a note to myself. I want to do it in the forums, but I’ll have a private discussion with you about it if you want to.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In forum debating I see people using words in a variety of ways that make them useless for communication, or even for clear thinking about anything that people are debating about.

I’m wondering if I really understand what you’re saying, because it makes me wonder why you keep debating with people about it.

It might not be possible to find any common ground for discussion, without any common purpose for it.

You are good. Yes, I still fight and you spotted it. I fight with theory for the common purpose of all humans, thought I know that it might not be there.
Yeah, you spotted it. You are right.
You do what you do outside the Internet and keep your skepticism about Internet warriors like me. You are wise.

 

[Jim]

I fight with theory for the common purpose of all humans, thought I know that it might not be there.

I didn’t mean that there’s no common purpose at all. I think that there are some common purposes. What I meant was that there’s no common purpose for having the discussion. I’ve changed my mind. The common purpose is the debating itself, for its own sake. That’s why it never ends. I have nothing against debating as a way of socializing and having fun. One objection I do have is that some of it looks poisonous to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I didn’t mean that there’s no common purpose at all. I think that there are some common purposes. What I meant was that there’s no common purpose for having the discussion. I’ve changed my mind. The common purpose is the debating itself, for its own sake. That’s why it never ends. I have nothing against debating as a way of socializing and having fun. One objection I do have is that some of it looks poisonous to me.

Yeah, debating is some times about winning and nothing else.
But there is something else between us 2. You do your faith as a practice with other humans and I do intellectual "theology" as far as I can tell.
Now I might be able to show you some theory and you might learn from it, but you are asking for the practice of it. I suck at it. I am only capable of everyday human interaction with my wife on a regular basis. I can't do small talk or everyday talk about being a human. I turn it into theory.

Now if you want to do it for fun, I can do words about what a word is and what other words are.

 

[Jim]

You do your faith as a practice with other humans and I do intellectual "theology" as far as I can tell.

I can see it as a kind of sport, or like playing chess. That’s it! I can think it as being like a game of cards, or chess, or checkers. There is some learning happening too, in spite of al the resistance to it. The more I think about it, the more good I see in it.