Losing my atheism (my new spiritual journey)

[Quintessence]

Whatever story is woven into the fabric of your life, may it bring you deep peace and happiness.

 

[Windwalker]

I guess I just don't understand why people make so much out of god, or to beliefs about it. Why would it even matter whether there is a god?

Because some people relate to the universe as a personal "other". It's related to not just as an "it", but a "thou". This is a form of mysticism called deity mysticism. There is also nature mysticism, casual mysticism (emptiness), and nondual mysticism. Each has a different focus and way of relating to the world and to ones own being.

Believe, or do not. It changes nothing.

Except for your relationship to yourself and the world. That pretty much covers everything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because some people relate to the universe as a personal "other". It's related to not just as an "it", but a "thou". This is a form of mysticism called deity mysticism. There is also nature mysticism, casual mysticism, and nondual mysticism. Each has a different focus and way of relating to the world and to ones own being.

Fair enough.

Except for your relationship to yourself and the world. That pretty much covers everything.

I guess I am somehow an exception. I don't feel that I should be any different from anyone else in this regard, though.

 

[lovemuffin]

Windwalker: Can I ask what casual mysticism is?

 

[Windwalker]

I guess I am somehow an exception. I don't feel that I should be any different from anyone else in this regard, though.

I don't think you're an exception. Some people just don't relate that way. It just doesn't resonate with them. It's nothing someone "has" to experience. But there is something it offers that is its own thing and has value.

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker: Can I ask what casual mysticism is?

Researchers in the area of transpersonal psychology group the various mystical states under the categories I listed, borrowing from names used within the various disciplines themselves, such as causal. Causal is essentially what Buddhists would call "Emptiness", the Formless, Ground of Being, and so forth. Think of it as the causal ground out of which everything arises and returns. Beyond that is the nondual.

I'll direct you to read this really good high-level overview of the various stages of these states of consciousness experienced through meditation practices. They can occur as Peak Experiences as well, which are abrupt unexpected 'stepping out' of oneself, as the OP described her experience to be. One reason to practice meditation is that instead of just waiting and hoping for these rare and unpredictable experiences to happen with Peak Experiences, meditation is a disciple that puts in square in its path of opening for you.

Anyway, I think you'll like this: Stages of Meditation | Integral Life

BTW, I agree with those that say we also need reason and rationality to help support these sorts of realization. But I'd caution it's not to be used as an "explanation" for them in the sense of "de-mystifying or debunking" them. It's really more a way to be able to talk about mystical states and experiences within a rational framework. To simply say "it's just the brain", for instance, completely misses and sweeps away the actual content and knowledge imparted through the experience. Every experience happens within the brain, including the experience and understanding of the value and importance of love. That doesn't make love not real. What human experiencing love will say "it's not real because it is caused by serotonin", and not be considered as living in self-dissociation?

 

[lovemuffin]

I wondered if it was "causal" but I figured either way I wasn't familiar with the reference. Thanks for the link.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Hi, I am new to these forums, but I had a question for the OP:

Under your handle is says "Metaphysical Naturalist." Is this a recent addition after this morning, or has that been your title for a while?

I was just wondering, considering the metaphysical part, if you weren't already more predisposed towards these ideas.

Not good or bad, just curious about your mindset. As an atheist, I have never had such an experience. But I don't already consider myself a metaphysical anything, so either I'm more closed to it, or you were already more open to it. Does that seem the case to you?

 

[Sleeppy]

Your sense of oneness relates directly to your questions about God, and about purpose (fine tuning, etc).. I say, find the things that apply to you personally, which are proving themselves to you, and you will find what applies to that oneness.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings.

What fine tuning?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good for you.

Even if you don't discard your Atheism, An open and curious heart is something to be glad for.

Best of luck on your spiritual journey

IMO, the leap from wonder and awe to "God must have done it" is the silencing of the open and curious heart.

 

[lovemuffin]

IMO, the leap from wonder and awe to "God must have done it" is the silencing of the open and curious heart.

I don't think it's necessary to make that leap with the sort of intellectual or dogmatic finality that you are asserting. Some people adopt that attitude, and so much of the arguments seem to assume the dichotomy between fundamentalist Christianity and a naturalistic atheism, but it's a false dichotomy, there does exist middle ground. There is an experience that could be called Divine (but does not need to be) without pretending to comprehend it, to distill it into some comprehensive and systematic dogma, or only to use as a convenient answer to dismiss every question. "Open-ness" also captures something of the flavor of the word "faith", properly understood. An epistemically closed and arrogant position is as much an affront to religious faith and humility as it is to intellectual honesty and curiosity, at least in my opinion. Historical and modern abuses and religious failings notwithstanding.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't think it's necessary to make that leap with the sort of intellectual or dogmatic finality that you are asserting.

IMO, both atheism and theism require this sort of intellectual and dogmatic finality. There is so much in front of us that we cannot see, so much that we do not understand, so much that we do not know. How can anyone honestly answer with a reply that they have any sort of knowledge or certainty? No matter how much we think we do, we do not have a clear and complete picture of the world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

IMO, both atheism and theism require this sort of intellectual and dogmatic finality. There is so much in front of us that we cannot see, so much that we do not understand, so much that we do not know. How can anyone honestly answer with a reply that they have any sort of knowledge or certainty? No matter how much we think we do, we do not have a clear and complete picture of the world.

All the atheist is saying here is "you know that 'vast unknown' where you say your god lives? I don't think you know it either." I don't see anything dogmatic or unreasonable in this position.

 

[Shad]

Best of luck in your search. My only advice would be keep learning as much as you can about other religions, do not stop short with whatever happens to provide emotional conform. For me atheism is not an end point but the beginning of true exploration as one had left the doctrine and dogma heavy religious views behind.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think it's necessary to make that leap with the sort of intellectual or dogmatic finality that you are asserting. Some people adopt that attitude, and so much of the arguments seem to assume the dichotomy between fundamentalist Christianity and a naturalistic atheism, but it's a false dichotomy, there does exist middle ground. There is an experience that could be called Divine (but does not need to be) without pretending to comprehend it, to distill it into some comprehensive and systematic dogma, or only to use as a convenient answer to dismiss every question. "Open-ness" also captures something of the flavor of the word "faith", properly understood. An epistemically closed and arrogant position is as much an affront to religious faith and humility as it is to intellectual honesty and curiosity, at least in my opinion. Historical and modern abuses and religious failings notwithstanding.

IMO, people who use phrases like "naturalistic atheism" tend to be the ones fabricating the false dichotomy.

... and anyone who slaps labels like "the Divine" on things purports to understand those things to some degree.

 

[lovemuffin]

I intended the term to be pretty neutral and descriptive. I recognize the inadequacies of labels, but if you can suggest a better one, I'm happy to use it instead.

 

[Yerda]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

Hello. I've experienced something similar.

Wondering about all the whys and ifs and seeing the striking coincidences leaves me thinking there must be more. There is. There's an entire universe of more. There's an impossibly large unobservable universe that we can never know and where everything may as well be true for all we can say. What there is, there just is. That's all I think we can safely conclude. It might be glib, or trivial, but I think asserting grand ontological or metaphysical truth beyond this leaves us prey to the temptations of a purpose-seeking pattern-finding mind.

 

[Windwalker]

I wondered if it was "causal" but I figured either way I wasn't familiar with the reference. Thanks for the link.

Oh, that's too funny. I typo'd "casual" mysticism. I suppose that would be mysticism in shorts and sandals? Just casually slipping into altered states?

 

[gsa]

hmmm...is today's date significant for this post?