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"Love thy neighbor" - what conditions are implied in this statement??

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Well AFAIK, the committee members involved in the better English translations all had PhDs

Not only do they have PhDs, but several of them specialize in koine greek, philology, etc, whereas my specialty is (or will be, I guess) orality within the Jesus tradition. They know more.

so I'm not going to privilege your exposition of the Greek over theirs. We all have axes to grind, and I'm not willing to pin my understanding of this parable on what appears to be an idiosyncratic rendering of the passage

I would submit that most translators would acknowledge my translation is closer to the actual greek. This happens a lot, for example in John when the evangalists states that "god so loved the world that he gave his only son..." Actually, what the passage says is that "god loved the world in this way, in that/so that/that he gave his only son." A good translation will invariably be unfaithful to the original text, especially when one is translating a long dead language. Translaters generally prefer to render the greek into "natural" english, but at the expense of accuracy. Also, The Complete Gospels, a wholly new translation of the various gospels (not just the canonical ones) translates the relevent passage like so: "Which of these three, in your opinion, acted like a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?" Kenneth E. Bailey (chairmen of the Biblical Department at the Near Eastern School of Theology and a priest, I believe), in his book on luke (Through Peasant Eyes) translates the phrase as "which of these three do you think became a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?"
In other words, I would say many scholars, even those involved in the translations you quoted, would acknowledge that I am closer to the greek, but they retain the "standard" translation because it is widespread and because, unless one is interested in exceedingly detailed understanding of the text, the traditional translation works. However, when scholars seeking to uncover a better understanding of Jesus' teachings in their historical and cultural setting translate that line, I think you will find that it differs from the versions you quoted.


But the point of the OP, I submit is the question whether there is anyone Christians ought not love. IF that's the question, what would you say the answer is?

I think here we finally have a point of agreement. I would say tht the answer is there is no one to whom Jesus would have said his followers ought not to love.
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I think here we finally have a point of agreement. I would say tht the answer is there is no one to whom Jesus would have said his followers ought not to love.

Are there conditions placed on that love, whether in the case of a stranger, a neighbor, or an enemy (however those get defined)?
 

Natas

Active Member
Not to sound crass, but I've got some neighbors that even a preacher wouldn't love. These people go out of their way to antagonize everyone. That being said, I wouldn't mind some of the gals that attend their pools parties to "love" me.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Not to sound crass, but I've got some neighbors that even a preacher wouldn't love. These people go out of their way to antagonize everyone. That being said, I wouldn't mind some of the gals that attend their pools parties to "love" me.

Poor job of it, mate.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Are there conditions placed on that love, whether in the case of a stranger, a neighbor, or an enemy (however those get defined)?

Although I would seperate the command to "love your neighbor" from "love your enemy," for all the reasons I gave above, the word "love" in both cases is "agapao," and in neither case does Jesus place any restrictions on that love. So no.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Although I would seperate the command to "love your neighbor" from "love your enemy," for all the reasons I gave above, the word "love" in both cases is "agapao," and in neither case does Jesus place any restrictions on that love. So no.

Hmm. So then what are the practical implications of the distinctions you were making? That is, given that your analysis of how first century Jews understood community, what would be the implications (for them) with respect to these two commands? Is it just a matter of showing love a different way? (I realize I'm going beyond the OP with this.)
 

texan1

Active Member
Hmm. So then what are the practical implications of the distinctions you were making? That is, given that your analysis of how first century Jews understood community, what would be the implications (for them) with respect to these two commands? Is it just a matter of showing love a different way? (I realize I'm going beyond the OP with this.)

That's ok with me :)
 

starlite

Texasgirl
Are you sure you understand what agape is?

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
agapao (Verb)

And the corresponding noun agape (B, No. 1 below) present "the characteristic word of Christianity, and since the Spirit of revelation has used it to express ideas previously unknown, inquiry into its use, whether in Greek literature or in the Septuagint, throws but little light upon its distinctive meaning in the NT. Cp., however, Le. 19:18; De. 6:5. "Agape and agapao are used in the NT (a) to describe the attitude of God toward His Son, Joh. 17:26; the human race, generally, Joh. 3:16; Ro. 5:8; and to such as believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, particularly, Joh. 14:21; (b) to convey His will to His children concerning their attitude one toward another, Joh. 13:34, and toward all men, 1Th. 3:12; 1Co. 16:14; 2Pe. 1:7; (c) to express the essential nature of God, 1Jo. 4:8. "Love can be known only from the actions it prompts. God's love is seen in the gift of His Son, 1Jo. 4:9,10. But obviously this is not the love of complacency, or affection, that is, it was not drawn out by any excellency in its objects, Ro. 5:8. It was an exercise of the Divine will in deliberate choice, made without assignable cause save that which lies in the nature of God Himself, Cp. De. 7:7,8. "Love had its perfect expression among men in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2Co. 5:14; Eph. 2:4; 3:19; 5:2; Christian love is the fruit of His Spirit in the Christian, Ga. 5:22. "Christian love has God for its primary object, and expresses itself first of all in implicit obedience to His commandments, Joh. 14:15,21,23; 15:10; 1Jo. 2:5; 5:3; 2Jo. 1:6. Self-will, that is, self-pleasing, is the negation of love to God. "Christian love, whether exercised toward the brethren, or toward men generally, is not an impulse from the feelings, it does not always run with the natural inclinations, nor does it spend itself only upon those for whom some affinity is discovered. Love seeks the welfare of all, Ro. 15:2, and works no ill to any, 13:8-10; love seeks opportunity to do good to 'all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith,' Ga. 6:10. See further 1Co. 13 and Col. 3:12-14." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 105.] In respect of agapao as used of God, it expresses the deep and constant "love" and interest of a perfect Being towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a reverential "love" in them towards the Giver, and a practical "love" towards those who are partakers of the same, and a desire to help others to seek the Giver. See BELOVED.

Concerning this love (a·ga′pe), Professor William Barclay in his New Testament Words says: “Agapē has to do with the mind: it is not simply an emotion which rises unbidden in our hearts [as may be the case with phi·li′a]; it is a principle by which we deliberately live. Agapē has supremely to do with the will. It is a conquest, a victory, and achievement. No one ever naturally loved his enemies. To love one’s enemies is a conquest of all our natural inclinations and emotions. This agapē . . . is in fact the power to love the unlovable, to love people whom we do not like.”
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
agapao (Verb)

And the corresponding noun agape (B, No. 1 below) present "the characteristic word of Christianity, and since the Spirit of revelation has used it to express ideas previously unknown, inquiry into its use, whether in Greek literature or in the Septuagint, throws but little light upon its distinctive meaning in the NT. Cp., however, Le. 19:18; De. 6:5. "Agape and agapao are used in the NT (a) to describe the attitude of God toward His Son, Joh. 17:26; the human race, generally, Joh. 3:16; Ro. 5:8; and to such as believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, particularly, Joh. 14:21; (b) to convey His will to His children concerning their attitude one toward another, Joh. 13:34, and toward all men, 1Th. 3:12; 1Co. 16:14; 2Pe. 1:7; (c) to express the essential nature of God, 1Jo. 4:8. "Love can be known only from the actions it prompts. God's love is seen in the gift of His Son, 1Jo. 4:9,10. But obviously this is not the love of complacency, or affection, that is, it was not drawn out by any excellency in its objects, Ro. 5:8. It was an exercise of the Divine will in deliberate choice, made without assignable cause save that which lies in the nature of God Himself, Cp. De. 7:7,8. "Love had its perfect expression among men in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2Co. 5:14; Eph. 2:4; 3:19; 5:2; Christian love is the fruit of His Spirit in the Christian, Ga. 5:22. "Christian love has God for its primary object, and expresses itself first of all in implicit obedience to His commandments, Joh. 14:15,21,23; 15:10; 1Jo. 2:5; 5:3; 2Jo. 1:6. Self-will, that is, self-pleasing, is the negation of love to God. "Christian love, whether exercised toward the brethren, or toward men generally, is not an impulse from the feelings, it does not always run with the natural inclinations, nor does it spend itself only upon those for whom some affinity is discovered. Love seeks the welfare of all, Ro. 15:2, and works no ill to any, 13:8-10; love seeks opportunity to do good to 'all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith,' Ga. 6:10. See further 1Co. 13 and Col. 3:12-14." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 105.] In respect of agapao as used of God, it expresses the deep and constant "love" and interest of a perfect Being towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a reverential "love" in them towards the Giver, and a practical "love" towards those who are partakers of the same, and a desire to help others to seek the Giver. See BELOVED.

Concerning this love (a·ga′pe), Professor William Barclay in his New Testament Words says: “Agapē has to do with the mind: it is not simply an emotion which rises unbidden in our hearts [as may be the case with phi·li′a]; it is a principle by which we deliberately live. Agapē has supremely to do with the will. It is a conquest, a victory, and achievement. No one ever naturally loved his enemies. To love one’s enemies is a conquest of all our natural inclinations and emotions. This agapē . . . is in fact the power to love the unlovable, to love people whom we do not like.”

Good post and deserving of frubals. I Googled this agape love and found a good excerpt from Saint Augustine's tractate on John's Gospel (Tract. 65, 1-3: CCL 36, 490-492) is used in the Roman Office of readings for Thursday of the fourth week of Easter. (http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/924/New_Commandment_of_Love_Augustine.html)
This love your neighbour get a pretty bad treatment around here, lots of posters can’t make the difference between the different kinds of love that scriptures discourses a about, this agape love is the one that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded the Church to have and is a new commandment set out in Joh13:34
The Lord Jesus declares that he is giving his disciples a new commandment, that they should love one another: I give you a new commandment: love one another, Is it new because Jesus has divested the believer of our old humanity and clothed us with the new, this is love that renews those who listen to it, those who act in obedience to it, this is a distinct kind of love, it is a particular kind of love which the Lord distinguished from all carnal affection by adding love one another as I have loved you, these two kind of love get confused by some.
This is the love that renews us, making us new men, heirs of the New Testament.
Because of this, the members of the people of God have a mutual interest in one another, not as people who pretend to love in order to corrupt one another, nor indeed as people love one another in a human, but they love one another as those who belong to God. For when God is all in all, there is no desire that is unfulfilled, the desire to pleased God that is. He loved us so that we should love one another. By loving us he bound us to one another in mutual love, and by this gentle bond united us into the body of which he is the most noble Head.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Hmm. So then what are the practical implications of the distinctions you were making? That is, given that your analysis of how first century Jews understood community, what would be the implications (for them) with respect to these two commands? Is it just a matter of showing love a different way? (I realize I'm going beyond the OP with this.)

In short, the difference is not so much in treatment but in conceptualization. In other words, Jesus, although he advocated "loving one's enemy" as well as one's "neighbor," still understood that their would be a difference in how the two would be perceived: one as a member of the community, the other as an outsider. What makes Jesus so revolutionary (among other things) is that he asked his followers to extend love to those outside their community. But unless they subsequently became members/insiders, they would remain outsiders or enemies.
 

starlite

Texasgirl
Good post and deserving of frubals. I Googled this agape love and found a good excerpt from Saint Augustine's tractate on John's Gospel (Tract. 65, 1-3: CCL 36, 490-492) is used in the Roman Office of readings for Thursday of the fourth week of Easter. (http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/924/New_Commandment_of_Love_Augustine.html)
This love your neighbour get a pretty bad treatment around here, lots of posters can’t make the difference between the different kinds of love that scriptures discourses a about, this agape love is the one that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded the Church to have and is a new commandment set out in Joh13:34
The Lord Jesus declares that he is giving his disciples a new commandment, that they should love one another: I give you a new commandment: love one another, Is it new because Jesus has divested the believer of our old humanity and clothed us with the new, this is love that renews those who listen to it, those who act in obedience to it, this is a distinct kind of love, it is a particular kind of love which the Lord distinguished from all carnal affection by adding love one another as I have loved you, these two kind of love get confused by some.
This is the love that renews us, making us new men, heirs of the New Testament.
Because of this, the members of the people of God have a mutual interest in one another, not as people who pretend to love in order to corrupt one another, nor indeed as people love one another in a human, but they love one another as those who belong to God. For when God is all in all, there is no desire that is unfulfilled, the desire to pleased God that is. He loved us so that we should love one another. By loving us he bound us to one another in mutual love, and by this gentle bond united us into the body of which he is the most noble Head.

Yes...this is the love I was talking about. And Jesus said this would be the identifying mark of true Christians. (John 13:35) Furbals to you too!
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
In short, the difference is not so much in treatment but in conceptualization. In other words, Jesus, although he advocated "loving one's enemy" as well as one's "neighbor," still understood that their would be a difference in how the two would be perceived: one as a member of the community, the other as an outsider. What makes Jesus so revolutionary (among other things) is that he asked his followers to extend love to those outside their community. But unless they subsequently became members/insiders, they would remain outsiders or enemies.

I see. I took you to be saying something much different before, such as that Christians ought to love neighbors but not enemies (or something like that). Our last few exchanges have clarified your meaning, and it looks as though we agree, at least on the practical implications of this pair of commands.

Thanks for your patient explanations.
 
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