love your neighbor....really?

[waitasec]

It's not quite a dozen, but off the top of my head, I'd point you towards posts of mine from last month.

Check posts 16 and especially 21.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...11366-did-jesus-ever-really-say-anything.html

thank you for that
this will encompasses an understanding that maintains each gospel was intended for different audiences

Luke 3:7-9
John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

the gospel of luke was written later and was written for a greco-roman audience so it makes sense this story is in luke's gospel...

it's also worth noting that in matthew john the baptist was calling the pharisees and sadducees the vipers
so clearly the audience were primarily jewish for matthew

mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

another indication that the audience was jewish

john 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

the gospel of john was written for a broader audience and was also written almost 80 yrs after the 1st gospel (mark) was written.

so here we have 2 gospels who's audience was primarily jewish and only mention a jewish crowd following john the baptist

the gospels of luke and john were targeting a larger crowd and included other people...who were regarded as dogs...consider matthew and the canaanite woman

Matthew 25:37-46
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

as for this passage i can see how it can be taken to love or treat everyone with kindness...but i must say that he did separate the sheep from the goats;
the sheep were the believers who heard jesus' message of solidarity and the goats were the ones who didn't the sadducees and pharisees perhaps

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

i would guess jesus was talking about the sadducees and the pharisees who were were a part of the crowd

jesus also says in matthew

7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

the others (non jews) are the dogs and swine who are not chosen

the chosen ones, from what i gather, are the ones who believed jesus was the messiah and a sense of solidarity is needed to strengthen their movement...

after the revolt and the destruction of the temple the jews were trying to reconcile why god had turned his back on them...even though this story isn't about the temple...the gospel of mark was the 1st gospel written at a very uncertain time...
notice the crucifixion in marks gospel

15:33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

now compare this to the crucifixion story in luke 23 written for an entirely different audience

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

two very different accounts, one is distraught... for an audience who wasn't sure and another for a wider audience who's narrative depicts jesus who is sure of the purpose of his sacrifice was for more than just the jews.



whew...i hope that wasn't too long winded

 

[waitasec]

If that were the case, then he would have said so.

According to his words, he healed her because he had great faith in him; i.e., she was persistent, not because she necessarily agreed with him.

exactly...

her initiation into the club was her faith that jesus was who he said he was

 

[Penumbra]

thank you for that
this will encompasses an understanding that maintains each gospel was intended for different audiences




the gospel of luke was written later and was written for a greco-roman audience so it makes sense this story is in luke's gospel...

it's also worth noting that in matthew john the baptist was calling the pharisees and sadducees the vipers
so clearly the audience were primarily jewish for matthew


another indication that the audience was jewish


the gospel of john was written for a broader audience and was also written almost 80 yrs after the 1st gospel (mark) was written.

so here we have 2 gospels who's audience was primarily jewish and only mention a jewish crowd following john the baptist

the gospels of luke and john were targeting a larger crowd and included other people...who were regarded as dogs...consider matthew and the canaanite woman



as for this passage i can see how it can be taken to love or treat everyone with kindness...but i must say that he did separate the sheep from the goats;
the sheep were the believers who heard jesus' message of solidarity and the goats were the ones who didn't the sadducees and pharisees perhaps



i would guess jesus was talking about the sadducees and the pharisees who were were a part of the crowd

jesus also says in matthew


the others (non jews) are the dogs and swine who are not chosen

the chosen ones, from what i gather, are the ones who believed jesus was the messiah and a sense of solidarity is needed to strengthen their movement...

after the revolt and the destruction of the temple the jews were trying to reconcile why god had turned his back on them...even though this story isn't about the temple...the gospel of mark was the 1st gospel written at a very uncertain time...
notice the crucifixion in marks gospel


now compare this to the crucifixion story in luke 23 written for an entirely different audience




two very different accounts, one is distraught... for an audience who wasn't sure and another for a wider audience who's narrative depicts jesus who is sure of the purpose of his sacrifice was for more than just the jews.



whew...i hope that wasn't too long winded

Here's the funny thing.


I didn't read your post closely enough. (Or more precisely, when I read your post, I didn't read the specific part of my post that you quoted). In my post that you quoted, I mentioned two things:
a) I mentioned that I wasn't particularly interested in spending a lot of time defending a guy I don't find to be moral, and pointed out that I could post a dozen points of his that I find to be terrible.
b) I mentioned that several passages taught to do no harm, and to love all neighbors and enemies and pray for them.

When I saw your post asking me to provide the passages, I thought you meant the terrible ones (because I didn't check specifically to see which part of my post you quoted). So I directed you to a post of mine where I highlighted several examples of Jesus quotes that I find to show his poor morality. (My bad.)

But then you kind of ran with it, and went about debunking why they don't mean to teach love towards all. So you basically commented on a bunch of verses that I hand selected as ones that show Jesus' poor morality. I find the mix up rather hilarious save for the fact that I've wasted several minutes of your time. :sorry1:

Most of the points showing his teachings regarding love of all have already been posted here, but I guess I'll try to put a bunch of them together too.

 

[Riverwolf]

exactly...

her initiation into the club was her faith that jesus was who he said he was

Which may have nothing to do with the witty response she chose. I imagine the result would have been the same had it been "But it is good to share your food with a starving neighbor."

 

[waitasec]

Here's the funny thing.


I didn't read your post closely enough. (Or more precisely, when I read your post, I didn't read the specific part of my post that you quoted). In my post that you quoted, I mentioned two things:
a) I mentioned that I wasn't particularly interested in spending a lot of time defending a guy I don't find to be moral, and pointed out that I could post a dozen points of his that I find to be terrible.
b) I mentioned that several passages taught to do no harm, and to love all neighbors and enemies and pray for them.

When I saw your post asking me to provide the passages, I thought you meant the terrible ones (because I didn't check specifically to see which part of my post you quoted). So I directed you to a post of mine where I highlighted several examples of Jesus quotes that I find to show his poor morality. (My bad.)

But then you kind of ran with it, and went about debunking why they don't mean to teach love towards all. So you basically commented on a bunch of verses that I hand selected as ones that show Jesus' poor morality. I find the mix up rather hilarious save for the fact that I've wasted several minutes of your time. :sorry1:

Most of the points showing his teachings regarding love of all have already been posted here, but I guess I'll try to put a bunch of them together too.

yeah i was interpreting the "produce fruit in keeping with repentance" as being good towards all in the luke passage... and the one other passage in matthew 25 to be of something that would also say jesus would judge you according to how you treated others...

but actually i don't mind because it only confirmed what i've been thinking all along...
each gospel was written for a different audience...the earlier ones seem to be about the jews and how jesus affects them and the last 2 where jesus is portrayed to be for everyone...
but i still think what constitutes a neighbor is either a jew or the outsider who believes jesus as messiah in order to unify them as the chosen ones...
in other words, why would anyone who is chosen mis treat another person who is chosen as well...?

does that make sense?

 

[waitasec]

Which may have nothing to do with the witty response she chose. I imagine the result would have been the same had it been "But it is good to share your food with a starving neighbor."

consider which gospel this is taken from...and the audience it was intended for.
gentiles or outsiders were not portrayed negatively in luke and john.
unless i am mistaken...

 

[Levite]

i wonder what "love your neighbor", "love your enemy" really means...
i have my doubts it means to love everyone, no matter who they are, but rather it was meant to love everyone in israel's camp for the sake of solidarity.

even the good samaritan story is a story about 2 jewish sects that are not on friendly terms but, nevertheless, are a part of israel's camp... had the story been about a jew helping a roman or the other way around, then it would seem that everyone is to love everyone, no matter their association or who they were...but from what i can tell, it means to love your own ...or those who wish to convert to your way of life. lev 19:33

consider the the following passage in the gospel of mark.
who is jesus talking to? a teacher of jewish law i would suppose, since he over heard jesus debating with the sadducees and approached jesus.

mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
jesus was quoting lev 19:18

if you read the context of leviticus in which this passage in mark is based on
god is speaking to moses and says...
2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them...."
‘Do not deceive one another...

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor....
16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

did the entire assembly of isreal not already know this...? of course they did...but i believe this was a way to establish a standard among their people to live peacefully with in the camp by give the israelites a sense of unity in order for them to successfully thrive in their society.

yet in other stories we have god ordering his chosen to not only to murder but to commit genocide of other peoples...

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." deuteronomy 7:1-2

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." deuteronomy 20:16

my question is, what basis do christians have to assume love your neighbor means to love everyone?

First of all, it's probably worth noting that the word ahavah, which always means "love" in medieval and modern Hebrew, and can mean "love" in Biblical Hebrew, sometimes (if not often) in Biblical Hebrew also meant something closer to what we might translate as "respect" or "value." In this context, it almost certainly carries the latter nuance of meaning.

There are some classical Jewish commentators that suggest that "Love your fellow as yourself" (the word often translated as "neighbor" actually means something closer to "fellow person") did only apply to fellow Jews, though that was by no means a universal opinion, nor were its proponents necessarily the most revered of our commentators.

But a much more common (and pragmatic), view was held by classical commentators such as Rashbam (Rabbi Shmuel ben Meir, 12th century, France), who explained the verse by saying, "Love your fellow, yes. But if he turns against you, to harm you, he is no longer your fellow, and you must do whatever necessary to prevent him from doing you harm."

It is also worth noting that, regarding the ruthlessness of the conquest of the Land of Canaan, that those are considered to be special cases, just that one time, and that it was expected that it be understood that future wars the people might engage in would be purely political, with no religious meaning to them, or wars fought to defend ourselves from attack. The idea of a religiously mandated war of conquest and aggression, though, was said to have been a completely unique occurrence: just the once, and never again, in order to fulfill the promise God made us to take that land away from those tribes and give it to the tribes descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Penumbra]

yeah i was interpreting the "produce fruit in keeping with repentance" as being good towards all in the luke passage... and the one other passage in matthew 25 to be of something that would also say jesus would judge you according to how you treated others...

but actually i don't mind because it only confirmed what i've been thinking all along...
each gospel was written for a different audience...the earlier ones seem to be about the jews and how jesus affects them and the last 2 where jesus is portrayed to be for everyone...
but i still think what constitutes a neighbor is either a jew or the outsider who believes jesus as messiah in order to unify them as the chosen ones...
in other words, why would anyone who is chosen mis treat another person who is chosen as well...?

does that make sense?

Ok, here's the real list.

It's commonly understood that different gospels were written for different audiences. Some for Jews, some for Gentiles.


Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

(So Jesus is saying to love neighbors and enemies. His pagan quip shows his ethnocentric side, but that does not contradict his statement regarding loving neighbors and enemies.)


Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

(So Jesus forgives his Roman soldier enemies that were crucifying him.)


Luke 10:33-37
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

(Jesus specifically picked a Samaritan for his example, which would not have been popular. Although similar to the Jewish religion, they would not have been considered part of his "group". For instance, in Matthew 10:5, Jesus specifically told his disciples to avoid gentile and Samaritan towns. The basis concept of the parable seems to be that actions and benevolence of people trump their ethnicity or group.)


John 4:9-10
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

(Jesus has a respectful discussion with a Samaritan woman. He does discredit her views, but offers her eternal life. See the whole chapter for the full conversation.)


Luke 2:29-32
29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and the glory of your people Israel.”

(Early in Luke, this statement is made about Jesus, which is a reference to Isaiah. "Light for revelation to the Gentiles.")


Acts 10:27-29
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

(Not a Jesus quote, but Acts is one of the earliest New Testament texts. Peter's character seems to understand the global message of love.)


Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[c]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[d]”

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

Luke 24:46-47
He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

(A sampling from several gospels showing Jesus' international ambitions.)



The overall impression I get from the character of Jesus as presented in the four canon gospels is that:
-His main message is to treat each other kindly, or his father will hurt you. (Rather unimpressive morality.)
-He was under the impression that the world was ending rather shortly.
-He had significant Essene/Zoroastrian influences.
-He is ethnocentric and egotistical, proclaiming to be the Messiah, proclaiming to be in a position to judge in the afterlife, and showing disrespect for people of other religions or cultures.
-But, he did intend for people that listen to him to treat all people kindly, and to go out of one's way to help each other, regardless of position in life. He purposely picked disadvantaged or outcast examples to showcase this, and wanted his message spread far. I don't see any indication the he would advise his disciples to treat people from other groups poorly in terms of violence, or denying them food or help, etc.

 

[Riverwolf]

consider which gospel this is taken from...and the audience it was intended for.
gentiles or outsiders were not portrayed negatively in luke and john.

Which can indicate a few other possibilities: this particular story is a complete fabrication by the gospel's author (or one of his/her sources), and not part of the original set of teachings (wherever they came from). ... I thought of another one, but I have forgotten it. ^_^

 

[waitasec]

here are my 2 cents...
as always levite, i enjoy your responses.

First of all, it's probably worth noting that the word ahavah, which always means "love" in medieval and modern Hebrew, and can mean "love" in Biblical Hebrew, sometimes (if not often) in Biblical Hebrew also meant something closer to what we might translate as "respect" or "value." In this context, it almost certainly carries the latter nuance of meaning.

There are some classical Jewish commentators that suggest that "Love your fellow as yourself" (the word often translated as "neighbor" actually means something closer to "fellow person") did only apply to fellow Jews, though that was by no means a universal opinion, nor were its proponents necessarily the most revered of our commentators.

But a much more common (and pragmatic), view was held by classical commentators such as Rashbam (Rabbi Shmuel ben Meir, 12th century, France), who explained the verse by saying, "Love your fellow, yes. But if he turns against you, to harm you, he is no longer your fellow, and you must do whatever necessary to prevent him from doing you harm."

the setting was the gathering of "the entire assembly of Israel"
leviticus 19:16 "your people" `am (nation, people, nation
persons, members of one's people, compatriots, country-men
kinsman, kindred)
and 19:17 'ach (brother of same parents, half-brother (same father)
relative, kinship, same tribe, each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
19:18 "your people" `am (nation, people, nation
persons, members of one's people, compatriots, country-men
kinsman, kindred) but love your neighbor as yourself.
the meaning of neighbor: rea` has been established as friend, companion, fellow, another person, friend, intimate, fellow, fellow-citizen, another person (weaker sense) other, another

if it were intended to be understood as to love all people...then we would get that, but the implications lends itself to be understood as member's of ones people...imo. that is why there is the justification for taking land from other people.
if they applied this law to all the people...they wouldn't be fighting over land, they would live in a copacetic state....

It is also worth noting that, regarding the ruthlessness of the conquest of the Land of Canaan, that those are considered to be special cases, just that one time, and that it was expected that it be understood that future wars the people might engage in would be purely political, with no religious meaning to them, or wars fought to defend ourselves from attack. The idea of a religiously mandated war of conquest and aggression, though, was said to have been a completely unique occurrence: just the once, and never again, in order to fulfill the promise God made us to take that land away from those tribes and give it to the tribes descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

i'd like to discuss this topic, maybe you can point me to the right thread?

 

[Hawkins]

God's sheep shouldn't judge. Or it's not up to a sheep to distinguish between the sheep and goats. Only God is capable of doing the judging job. Unless we are earting the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil to think that we are God to judge, we should love every body and let God be the Judge.

So you are supposed to love everyone including your own enemies if you are of God's sheep, as you are incapable of judging who is who. If you think that you can judge to say that "I love him because he's God's sheep, and I hate her because she's a goat", then it only means that you are not from God.

As a result, Christians need to love everyone at any time, and God be the Judge.

 

[waitasec]

God's sheep shouldn't judge. Or it's not up to a sheep to distinguish between the sheep and goats. Only God is capable of doing the judging job.

but in actuality you do...you call your fellow believers brothers and sisters in christ, don't you?

So you are supposed to love everyone including your own enemies if you are of God's sheep, as you are incapable of judging who is who.

but you are capable of knowing who is who...

If you think that you can judge to say that "I love him because he's God's sheep, and I hate her because she's a goat", then it only means that you are not from God.

well explain to me the difference is between a mormon and an evangelical christian...or a catholic and a 7th day adventist...

As a result, Christians need to love everyone at any time, and God be the Judge.

funny enough everyone should, but you don't seem to think that those who do not follow your beliefs can do the same...why is that?

besides, if 'christians'/blievers did that, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the 1st place.

 

[Levite]

the setting was the gathering of "the entire assembly of Israel"
leviticus 19:16 "your people" `am (nation, people, nation
persons, members of one's people, compatriots, country-men
kinsman, kindred)
and 19:17 'ach (brother of same parents, half-brother (same father)
relative, kinship, same tribe, each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
19:18 "your people" `am (nation, people, nation
persons, members of one's people, compatriots, country-men
kinsman, kindred) but love your neighbor as yourself.
the meaning of neighbor: rea` has been established as friend, companion, fellow, another person, friend, intimate, fellow, fellow-citizen, another person (weaker sense) other, another

if it were intended to be understood as to love all people...then we would get that, but the implications lends itself to be understood as member's of ones people...imo. that is why there is the justification for taking land from other people.
if they applied this law to all the people...they wouldn't be fighting over land, they would live in a copacetic state....

And indeed, some commentators have made just that argument. But others say that the full context of these commandments in the 19th chapter refers to our obligation to be holy, and to encourage those aspects of our behavior that most endear us to God, these being faithfulness, honesty, ethicality, fairness, compassion, and other such behaviors as create a truly just and merciful society. And as such, these kinds of behavior cannot be restricted to only fellow Jews, since God is the creator not only of the Jews, but of all people and creatures, and is the God not only of Israel but of the whole universe. So that what we are presented here are not maximums, but minimums of behavior: we know that these things are not to be tolerated among us-- how much less ought they to be tolerated from us to other peoples, since we are to be an exemplar of following God's commandments? But we are told in reference to our fellow Jews first, because they are who we will encounter first, before we encounter non-Jews. So runs the alternative argument.

Now, if you wish to say that we sometimes, or even often, fail at living up to this interpretation, that may be fair: Jews are flawed and fallible mortal beings, as much as any other people are. And we fail at doing the right thing just as often, unfortunately, as anyone else does. But that doesn't change where the bar is set, so to speak: we ought not to act in those stated ways to anyone, regardless of national, ethnic, or religious identity.

It is also worth noting that terms such as b'amecha ("among your people") and achecha ("your brother") can sometimes be idiomatic: they may be used as expressions indicating things like "in public" or "your fellow, another person."

i'd like to discuss this topic, maybe you can point me to the right thread?

I'll be honest: I don't recall seeing a thread on this. Doesn't mean there hasn't been one, just means I haven't seen it. I'm sorry to be unhelpful....

 

[waitasec]

i'm aware this is not a very popular understanding, but in light of
the limitations the love jesus has for humanity, it makes sense to me...for what it's worth...

Ok, here's the real list.

It's commonly understood that different gospels were written for different audiences. Some for Jews, some for Gentiles.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

(So Jesus is saying to love neighbors and enemies. His pagan quip shows his ethnocentric side, but that does not contradict his statement regarding loving neighbors and enemies.)

i would go as far as saying jesus didn't say this but the author of the gospel of matthew did...
i don't see a contradiction...i see the modern understanding as irreconcilable. (matthew's audience were not contemporaries of jesus it was written between 70-100 as i'm sure you know).
what i highlighted, a jew being persecuted would be one who is a follower of the jesus movement. during this time in history the jewish religion faced very challenging times, hence when the jesus movement started.

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

(So Jesus forgives his Roman soldier enemies that were crucifying him.)

because luke's audience consisted of greeks and romans...and establishes salvation is for all who accept jesus as the messiah...once this happens you are now the "neighbor" or a companion in the sense of sharing the same belief...

Luke 10:33-37
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

(Jesus specifically picked a Samaritan for his example, which would not have been popular. Although similar to the Jewish religion, they would not have been considered part of his "group". For instance, in Matthew 10:5, Jesus specifically told his disciples to avoid gentile and Samaritan towns. The basis concept of the parable seems to be that actions and benevolence of people trump their ethnicity or group.)

i respectfully disagree, as i mentioned in the OP, had it been a roman who helped the jew or the other way around then i would see "love your neighbor" as having a universal understanding of the word 'neighbor' trumping ethnicity
it's also worth noting what jesus said in matthew 10:6 "Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." seems salvation is first reserved for the jews...

John 4:9-10
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

(Jesus has a respectful discussion with a Samaritan woman. He does discredit her views, but offers her eternal life. See the whole chapter for the full conversation.)

in john we see a broader view of jesus for the jewish audience notice how the story ends
"And because of his words many more (samaritans) became believers..." reaching the neighbor status

Luke 2:29-32
29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and the glory of your people Israel.”

(Early in Luke, this statement is made about Jesus, which is a reference to Isaiah. "Light for revelation to the Gentiles.")

is it salvation or gaining converts, in order to increase the kingdom...?
this passage in isaiah ends with

But this is what the LORD says:

“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the LORD, am your Savior,'
there is no loving your neighbor/enemy in that...

where's the love in that passage? maybe only for those who convert..

Acts 10:27-29
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

(Not a Jesus quote, but Acts is one of the earliest New Testament texts. Peter's character seems to understand the global message of love.)

but there you have it, love your neighbor means to love your fellow jew OR anyone who converts to the jewish way of life as it is stated in leviticus. and christians were not on the scene as of yet the followers of jesus were 'jewish'

Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[c]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[d]”

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
Luke 24:46-47
He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

(A sampling from several gospels showing Jesus' international ambitions.)

the making of an imperialistic theocratic dictatorship...

The overall impression I get from the character of Jesus as presented in the four canon gospels is that:
-His main message is to treat each other kindly, or his father will hurt you. (Rather unimpressive morality.)

where is the love? does love have time limits or is it unchallenged?

-But, he did intend for people that listen to him to treat all people kindly, and to go out of one's way to help each other, regardless of position in life.

in order to be treated kindly you needed to believe jesus was the messiah...

He purposely picked disadvantaged or outcast examples to showcase this, and wanted his message spread far. I don't see any indication the he would advise his disciples to treat people from other groups poor

and i am not suggesting that either...
the poor disadvantage "believers" where considered brothers and sisters, because they were open to the idea of jesus being the messiah...

can you think of a story where jesus heals a gentile who was poor or disadvantage who didn't confess jesus' messiahship before being healed...? or maybe i am mistaken...

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
—Matthew 25:40

whew...:bonk:

 

[waitasec]

And indeed, some commentators have made just that argument. But others say that the full context of these commandments in the 19th chapter refers to our obligation to be holy, and to encourage those aspects of our behavior that most endear us to God, these being faithfulness, honesty, ethicality, fairness, compassion, and other such behaviors as create a truly just and merciful society. And as such, these kinds of behavior cannot be restricted to only fellow Jews, since God is the creator not only of the Jews, but of all people and creatures, and is the God not only of Israel but of the whole universe. So that what we are presented here are not maximums, but minimums of behavior: we know that these things are not to be tolerated among us-- how much less ought they to be tolerated from us to other peoples, since we are to be an exemplar of following God's commandments? But we are told in reference to our fellow Jews first, because they are who we will encounter first, before we encounter non-Jews. So runs the alternative argument.

it's just interesting to see how this religion has been the springboard of the christian and islamic beliefs...
it is for this very reason (what i highlighted), that we find strife between the 3 religions because the jewish tradition is the standard...there can only be one god. it's the god of the jews first, the chosen ones, then those who follow suit will be accepted...i noticed a few passages in the new testament where jesus allegedly said,
5 “...Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.’

i disagree that this sense of solidarity only comes from the jewish god...other societies have come up with this as well...confucianism for example. i believe it is an innate sense we all have and why we are drawn to this in the first place, i just want to rock the boat a bit and look at it from another perspective.

Now, if you wish to say that we sometimes, or even often, fail at living up to this interpretation, that may be fair: Jews are flawed and fallible mortal beings, as much as any other people are. And we fail at doing the right thing just as often, unfortunately, as anyone else does. But that doesn't change where the bar is set, so to speak: we ought not to act in those stated ways to anyone, regardless of national, ethnic, or religious identity.

the purpose of this thread to argue that neighbor meant a fellow jewish person...not everyone...because what separates the jewish neighbor from a gentile neighbor is their belief...so i hope you're not taking the purpose of this thread the wrong way...

 

[darkendless]

Love thy neighbour? Mine beats his kids, torments my dogs, poisons my garden and is an abusive animal. I'd say he'd be better off dying to donate his organs to a cause but they've been abused by alcohol.

 

[Levite]

it's just interesting to see how this religion has been the springboard of the christian and islamic beliefs...
it is for this very reason (what i highlighted), that we find strife between the 3 religions because the jewish tradition is the standard...there can only be one god. it's the god of the jews first, the chosen ones, then those who follow suit will be accepted...i noticed a few passages in the new testament where jesus allegedly said,
5 “...Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.’

Well, I guess I'd say two things: first, that we prefer to look at it not as sort of an imposed doctrine of "there can be only one God," but as the understanding of a phenomenon: "there is one God." Many others besides Jews concur with this understanding, and it's not necessarily that we think those who don't are bad or anything, so much simply that they are misunderstanding the phenomenon of the divine. Which, to be fair, is easy to do. Nobody understands God completely, or even close to completely. And God, being Infinite, and paradoxical, has many aspects that we perceive, and is experienced differently by different people, in different ways. In some ways, it's actually amazing that as many people as there are have managed to figure out monotheism in one form or degree or another, considering how easy it would be to presume that different aspects or experiences of God are actually experiences of multiple entities or phenomena. And, at least these days, so long as polytheists are not trying to unduly influence or convert Jews (which really hasn't happened in a couple of thousand years), we tend to believe that they are good people, trying to worship and honor God as best they can, and they simply happen to have made some theological mistakes along the way.

God is God. And making different theological choices, or even making theological mistakes, minor or major, about His nature is not really an excuse for us to treat others poorly, and cheat them, lie to them, or fail to help them if they are in need.

Second is that is certainly true that we generally say that tzedakah (sometimes translated as "charity," although that's imprecise, given that "charity" comes from the Latin caritas, indicating something done out of compassion, and tzedakah comes from a root having to do with justice, meaning that good behavior, caring for those in need, protecting the defenseless, etc. are all things done not out of compassion, but because it is only right to do them) is done first in one's own community and second in others, but that is also because we understand that not to take care of our own risks our own becoming a burden on others.

i disagree that this sense of solidarity only comes from the jewish god...other societies have come up with this as well...confucianism for example. i believe it is an innate sense we all have and why we are drawn to this in the first place, i just want to rock the boat a bit and look at it from another perspective.

I guess I'm not sure what "solidarity" you're referring to. The solidarity of moral or ethical behavior? Of doing the right thing? Of trying to create a just society? Because I think a whole lot of societies have versions of that, it's true. Or is it monotheism? Or merely the desire to interweave our experience of the numinous or the spiritual into everyday life? Because other societies also have those.

And we're okay with that. Part of the idea that Judaism and Torah are for Jews, and were never intended for other peoples is the acceptance, or even valuation, of other cultures' attempts to seek and connect with God, and to establish and promote justice and ethical behavior as best they can. As long as they're doing those things, they have no need to do things our way, or even necessarily similarly to our way.

ithe purpose of this thread to argue that neighbor meant a fellow jewish person...not everyone...because what separates the jewish neighbor from a gentile neighbor is their belief...so i hope you're not taking the purpose of this thread the wrong way...

In this context, the word re'a almost certainly does not mean "neighbor," but rather something closer to "fellow" or "compatriot." If one wishes to interpret it narrowly, as meaning only other Jews, or, for that matter, even only those who live near you, or one's own clanspeople, that reading of the text is supportable, and can be made. But it is certainly not the only possible reading of the text, and many, if not most Jewish authorities over the past couple of thousand years have not read it so, but have read it more widely.

In any case, as you know, we hold that Torah holds infinite meanings, and is designed to promote evolving understandings over time, as we mature, and our capacity to understand more complexities of ourselves and our Creator deepens. Even if the narrowest possible reading was embraced by our far ancestors (and we don't know that it was, nor do we know that it wasn't), it still has little impact on what readings we have chosen to embrace over the course of Rabbinic Judaism's history, or what readings we choose to embrace today.

 

[confusedius]

i wonder what "love your neighbor", "love your enemy" really means...
i have my doubts it means to love everyone, no matter who they are, but rather it was meant to love everyone in israel's camp for the sake of solidarity.

even the good samaritan story is a story about 2 jewish sects that are not on friendly terms but, nevertheless, are a part of israel's camp... had the story been about a jew helping a roman or the other way around, then it would seem that everyone is to love everyone, no matter their association or who they were...but from what i can tell, it means to love your own ...or those who wish to convert to your way of life. lev 19:33

consider the the following passage in the gospel of mark.
who is jesus talking to? a teacher of jewish law i would suppose, since he over heard jesus debating with the sadducees and approached jesus.

mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
jesus was quoting lev 19:18

if you read the context of leviticus in which this passage in mark is based on
god is speaking to moses and says...
2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them...."
‘Do not deceive one another...

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor....
16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

did the entire assembly of isreal not already know this...? of course they did...but i believe this was a way to establish a standard among their people to live peacefully with in the camp by give the israelites a sense of unity in order for them to successfully thrive in their society.

yet in other stories we have god ordering his chosen to not only to murder but to commit genocide of other peoples...

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." deuteronomy 7:1-2

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." deuteronomy 20:16

my question is, what basis do christians have to assume love your neighbor means to love everyone?

Personally, I have always felt that the apparently disparate attitudes attributed to God and Christ are the major argument against the Trinity.

I take love thy neighbor to mean "play nice", i.e. treat them with kindness and courtesy. Some are just too unlovable, and I really have trouble with turn the other cheek especially with nasty people.

james

 

[jtartar]

i wonder what "love your neighbor", "love your enemy" really means...
i have my doubts it means to love everyone, no matter who they are, but rather it was meant to love everyone in israel's camp for the sake of solidarity.

even the good samaritan story is a story about 2 jewish sects that are not on friendly terms but, nevertheless, are a part of israel's camp... had the story been about a jew helping a roman or the other way around, then it would seem that everyone is to love everyone, no matter their association or who they were...but from what i can tell, it means to love your own ...or those who wish to convert to your way of life. lev 19:33

consider the the following passage in the gospel of mark.
who is jesus talking to? a teacher of jewish law i would suppose, since he over heard jesus debating with the sadducees and approached jesus.

mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
jesus was quoting lev 19:18

if you read the context of leviticus in which this passage in mark is based on
god is speaking to moses and says...
2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them...."
‘Do not deceive one another...

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor....
16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

did the entire assembly of isreal not already know this...? of course they did...but i believe this was a way to establish a standard among their people to live peacefully with in the camp by give the israelites a sense of unity in order for them to successfully thrive in their society.

yet in other stories we have god ordering his chosen to not only to murder but to commit genocide of other peoples...

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." deuteronomy 7:1-2

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." deuteronomy 20:16

my question is, what basis do christians have to assume love your neighbor means to love everyone?

waitasec,
Notice what John 13:34,35, says. These verses say that people would know Jesus' disciples by the love they show among themselves.
Along with these verses, consider what Jesus said in the Greatest Sermon ever given, The Sermon on the Mount. At verses 5:44,45, Jesus said to continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you, so that you will be imitating your heavenly Father, who makes it rain on righteous as well as unrighteous people.
The next verses are telling, Matt 5:46-48, which says, If you love those loving you, what reward do you have and also if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing have you done. So these verses are meant for people who are not Christians, but people who are of other religions.
Then consider 2Cor 6:14-18, where we are told not to be unevenly yokes with unbelievers, with verse 16 even saying to get out from among them.
Putting these scriptures together we have the truth of God's message. Christians are not to have close relationships with unbelievers, but we should LOVE ALL people to the extent that we will go far out of our way to teach they the truth of God's word. This is the ultimate showing of love, because it gives the one who learn the opportunity for everlasting life in a paradise earth, that is very near NOW. Matt, chapter 24, Mark chapter 13, Luke chapter 21, 2Tim 3:1-7, show that we are eyewitnesses of all the conditions that Jesus said would be a sign that Jesus would be at the door. Rev 21:3-5, tells us just some of the conditions after Jesus comes to judge the earth at Armageddon.
Christians love ALL people enough to want them to live, but as long as they are unbelievers, we do not want to be fellowshipping with them. This is what love is all about, teaching all who are interested about God and His son Jesus,Matt 28:19,20.

 

[Riverwolf]

Love thy neighbour? Mine beats his kids, torments my dogs, poisons my garden and is an abusive animal.

And have you reported him to the police?